The start of a period of dominance, seems more likely.
I would be very surprised if they did not finish first and second, next season.
I would be very surprised if they did not finish first and second, next season.
Are we starting to see the end of City and Liverpool as the 2 best clubs in England ?
- Thread starter lysglimt
- Start date
Not quite yet. City will drop when Pep leaves, not a doubt about that but they're also aging more so I can see them dropping sooner. Liverpool have a couple more years of being the top club IMO before Klopp leaves in line with the team needing a rebuild. Lines up with us as I think we'll start peaking in a couple of years.
I don't think we're quite there either. We, Liverpool, still have a couple of years before our main players need replacing. City need rebuilding before us with the likes of Aguero, Fernandinho getting up there.
You and Chelsea have young promising squads, and if it all clicks for you with the right purchases, you could be up there sooner rather than later.
But teams rise or decline unexpectedly all the time, so who knows? My guess is, that it will be us and City next season with you and Chelsea getting closer.
I don't think what you're saying is that different to what we had, every year there would be the debate from journalists that "When Ronaldo leaves they are finished", "this is Sir Alex's last season", "Giggs and Scholes are retiring" etc. You can apply the same arguments to Salah, Klopp and your older players. We did fall off but not because of the reasons the journalists said.
Arguably the most important part of your side is your wingbacks and they have many, many years to go. I think replacing the rest of the players won't be as hard whenever you get to that point.
If Klopp would stay with us for 26 years I'd confidently say that we'd be challengers more often than not. He's however bound to leave around 2022-ish, and once that happens and the quality of our team isn't all that, we'll go through something similar like Utd has when SAF left - unless maybe we replace him with someone like Simeone or Pep himself.
Think the difference is our recruitment fell of a cliff and Woodward was given the reigns, the signs are that yours is very strong and you've been identifying holes in your squad. Arguably that's even more important than the manager as anyone can take over a good team like Barca, Madrid, Bayern - regularly changed managers.
We will finish above at least one of these clubs in the next two years.
City don't falter after scoring 198 points in two seasons (this season is a mini falter but we're saying they won't falter again right?) And Liverpool don't falter after potentially scoring 200+ points in two seasons!!!
Feck me that must be one hell of a team that just becomes 'better than them'.
Hopefully Pep leaves.
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Guardiola might leave in the summer so that'd impact City negatively. I don't think they'll find another manager who can get 90+ points like Pep can in such a dominating way. I've also noticed the same thing about the age of certain players within their squad.
When I look at our squad I think our key players still have a good 2/3 years in them. Our squad options aren't even close to being as good as City's but the key players are at an ok age. It's when we lose players like Van Dijk, Alisson & Mane that we'll have to make sure we act in the right way to maintain our current levels.
I do think Chelsea will challenge for the league within the next two seasons. It's what they've done since the Russian came in and bought them. Win a title, have a year or two off, win another, rinse and repeat. They aren't there yet and I don't think they'll manage it next season, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them up there again within the next 2-3 seasons.
I'm not sure about United. I think their squad looks better and more promising than Chelsea's right now but (go easy on me) you've been stuck in a bit of a boom bust cycle since Ferguson retired.
Moyes - Came in as 'The Chosen One' and was hyped up to be the long term successor, but failed with an ageing squad and was massively out of his depth.
Van Gaal - Signed some excellent players like Falcao & Di Maria, plus players like Hererra & Schneiderlin but again couldn't get United anywhere close to where you wanted to be.
Mourinho - Looked like a guarantee that United would at least compete for a title under him. Ibrahimovic & Pogba signed, Mkhitaryan bought in as well and you still had some very good players surrounding them. I guess Moruinho's inevitable crash came in but he couldn't get you anywhere close to competing for a title prior to that like he's done at other clubs. I think you hired him at the wrong end of his career.
I do think there's been a change in approach with regards to transfers under Solskjaer so maybe that'll be the difference but he seems to have consistency issues, and City/Liverpool have set ridiculous standards in that regard. I think that standard will drop next season but I also think we'll be capable of hitting close to 90 points again as well. I don't think United are there yet under Solskjaer. Getting top four this season would be a huge step in the right direction and something to build on going forward.
We haven't been dominating at the top for very long btw. It's only been almost two seasons. Even City were only dominating for two seasons (albeit in ridiculous fashion) and then fell off massively this year. It's become increasingly difficult to maintain the standard required to win 2/3 titles on the bounce.
When I look at our squad I think our key players still have a good 2/3 years in them. Our squad options aren't even close to being as good as City's but the key players are at an ok age. It's when we lose players like Van Dijk, Alisson & Mane that we'll have to make sure we act in the right way to maintain our current levels.
I do think Chelsea will challenge for the league within the next two seasons. It's what they've done since the Russian came in and bought them. Win a title, have a year or two off, win another, rinse and repeat. They aren't there yet and I don't think they'll manage it next season, but it wouldn't surprise me to see them up there again within the next 2-3 seasons.
I'm not sure about United. I think their squad looks better and more promising than Chelsea's right now but (go easy on me) you've been stuck in a bit of a boom bust cycle since Ferguson retired.
Moyes - Came in as 'The Chosen One' and was hyped up to be the long term successor, but failed with an ageing squad and was massively out of his depth.
Van Gaal - Signed some excellent players like Falcao & Di Maria, plus players like Hererra & Schneiderlin but again couldn't get United anywhere close to where you wanted to be.
Mourinho - Looked like a guarantee that United would at least compete for a title under him. Ibrahimovic & Pogba signed, Mkhitaryan bought in as well and you still had some very good players surrounding them. I guess Moruinho's inevitable crash came in but he couldn't get you anywhere close to competing for a title prior to that like he's done at other clubs. I think you hired him at the wrong end of his career.
I do think there's been a change in approach with regards to transfers under Solskjaer so maybe that'll be the difference but he seems to have consistency issues, and City/Liverpool have set ridiculous standards in that regard. I think that standard will drop next season but I also think we'll be capable of hitting close to 90 points again as well. I don't think United are there yet under Solskjaer. Getting top four this season would be a huge step in the right direction and something to build on going forward.
We haven't been dominating at the top for very long btw. It's only been almost two seasons. Even City were only dominating for two seasons (albeit in ridiculous fashion) and then fell off massively this year. It's become increasingly difficult to maintain the standard required to win 2/3 titles on the bounce.
Тhis is hands down one of the funniest things I've ever read in a post on redcafe.
Next season no, but the year after there's potential opening's for Chelsea and/or United if recruitment and team growth runs smoothly.
Spurs and Arsenal won't be able to get close to title winning level for 5 years and even that will only happen if they get almost everything right between now and then, people don't realize just how much trouble both are in.
Spurs and Arsenal won't be able to get close to title winning level for 5 years and even that will only happen if they get almost everything right between now and then, people don't realize just how much trouble both are in.
Chelsea and United are going to challenge them soon enough. Maybe the season after next season, if not next season.
No, I think these Liverpool and City teams will be competing for top honours for a few years yet. Both sides have been ruthlessly consistent and maybe they might lose that edge because key players lose that yard of pace or maybe their desire wavers a little bit. I think City have already dipped somewhat, they aren’t as aggressive off the ball as they used to be and it’s telling in their results this year.
I expect that teams will start to close the gap from next year, especially Chelsea and hopefully us. I think it might take another year to overhaul them though.
I expect that teams will start to close the gap from next year, especially Chelsea and hopefully us. I think it might take another year to overhaul them though.
Im actually quite curious about City's first post Pep season (i wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be next).
At Barca the players seemed burnt out by his intensity during the last season but the season after he left they went back to Pep levels, it was almost like a combination of Pep's tactical training still being fresh plus the less intense demands created another perfect storm.
Long term I imagine City will revert to being a "normal" title challenging side but I wouldn't be surprised if they have a similar first post Pep season as to what Barca had.
Liverpool fans are already unbearable, I do not want to imagine what it will be if they win the title next year and get the 20.
Liverpool’s squad’s ages seem pretty good to me. Majority are in their primes or are just about to reach it. I can see them being more figured out and being less dominant compared to how they were this year but they will still be very good. City on the other hand will need more investment but will still continue to challenge as long as Pep is around. What’s more important is how United step up to challenge them. We’re showing promise but are a dew steps behind + let’s see how we perform today.
Pool is not the best side in the country anymore. They have not won for months.
Worst champion ever
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Worst champion ever
.I think age is only important for certain players. For example, if you are a wingback who bombs up and down all game every game, then as you age the speed and fitness Decline naturally - we saw that with usain bolt.
same applies for any player whos game is built mainly around pace.
if your game was never built on that, you can play to a high level well into your 30’s
same applies for any player whos game is built mainly around pace.
if your game was never built on that, you can play to a high level well into your 30’s
This is true. We had Giggs play for us well into his 30's and was brilliant. I feel the players who really look after their body can play on e.g. Ronaldo, Giggs, Zlatan and players have to adapt their game to suit.
We have seen CB;s play till 35/36.
It is rare to see wingers and strikers play at the highest level post 30's especially in a Pep or Klopp team which relies on high intensity and pace.
In say a Jose team those players would flourish alot more.
I'd say Liverpool definitely have 2 more years of being a really good team, as much as I want to pretend they'' be shite and fall off a cliff next season they simply won't, their best players are in their prime years and we likely won't see noticeable declines for a while. Performances may start to wane towards the end of the 21/22 season. I don't think they'll repeat their feats of the past 2 seasons though, just like City couldn't keep it up. It's an optimistic and tired rhetoric but I think ourselves and Chelsea will be in a position to challenge next year providing we make the right signings. City is a bit more difficult to dissect, even if their core is aging there's still every chance they go on a spending spree to plug the holes.
Dominant club
A club that usually wins the title. When the club doesn't win they generally finish second(with 80 points(+) or close to the winner). Think Bayern, PSG, Juventus and us under Fergie.
Powerhouse
A club that usually makes top 4 and occasionally wins the title(once or twice over a 5 year period).
Strong club
A club that usually makes top 6. No PL titles, but can make the occasional title challenge.
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Basically, Post-Fergie there hasn't been a dominant club in England. And no club has been(or is) close to deserving this title, imo. At least if we use 5 year intervals to decide.
City has obviously become a powerhouse. Chelsea too, though they are very inconsistent. You could make an argument for Liverpool after this season. Tottenham, Arsenal and us are firmly in the "strong club" category. We are nowhere close to being a powerhouse.
A club that usually wins the title. When the club doesn't win they generally finish second(with 80 points(+) or close to the winner). Think Bayern, PSG, Juventus and us under Fergie.
Powerhouse
A club that usually makes top 4 and occasionally wins the title(once or twice over a 5 year period).
Strong club
A club that usually makes top 6. No PL titles, but can make the occasional title challenge.
____________________________________________
Basically, Post-Fergie there hasn't been a dominant club in England. And no club has been(or is) close to deserving this title, imo. At least if we use 5 year intervals to decide.
City has obviously become a powerhouse. Chelsea too, though they are very inconsistent. You could make an argument for Liverpool after this season. Tottenham, Arsenal and us are firmly in the "strong club" category. We are nowhere close to being a powerhouse.
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No, no, no. You are NOT ahead of yourself. You are right on the money. For sure. I'm sure of it. Pretty sure of it. Maybe. Beidir. Pout etre. Mm.
Props for the effort.Good thread and I think your on to something if a little too soon.But I'm happy to see us taking a longer term view with the building of our squad,more power to Ole.
So what, the end of the two whole years it's happened?
I like this post
Yes, great first reply to read, not going to bother looking at the rest of the thread. Perfectly put.
1 title is far too much though. This season feel like taking ages and does too.
It's this simple really. If Pep and Klopp hang around, we can forget it for the foreseeable future.
This
Also - City will have a bit of a reckoning soon. Pep has spent 700 million since he has been here - how much of that has been money well spent and will be relevant in a years time?
Interpreting the OP’s post slightly differently, neither of these clubs has to fall off a massive cliff, Chelsea and ourselves just need to raise our games a fair bit and Pools/City’s needs to drop a touch. I don’t see Pool or City getting as many points and goals as they have the last two seasons especially if they both have 6/8 games a season against top 4 rivals they can realistically lose. Pool have been outstanding in the Prem this year like they were in the CL last year, it was all a bit after-the-lord-mayors-show for them in Europe this year, they weren’t great whilst not being terrible. I see something similar for them in the league next season.
Also, assuming Chelsea and ourselves can get to something close to the level we should be performing at given our budgets and teams, frequent scraps and losses will translate into more fallibility for City and Pool when they are playing games they have been winning at a canter for the last two years too. I see a slight drop off in both sides results along with a significant upswing in Chelsea’s and ours.
Id be quite keen to see a genuine top 4/5 battling it out across the Prem and Europe.
Also, assuming Chelsea and ourselves can get to something close to the level we should be performing at given our budgets and teams, frequent scraps and losses will translate into more fallibility for City and Pool when they are playing games they have been winning at a canter for the last two years too. I see a slight drop off in both sides results along with a significant upswing in Chelsea’s and ours.
Id be quite keen to see a genuine top 4/5 battling it out across the Prem and Europe.
I thought the same
Liverpool's team has a few years left in yet. Far too early for this thread.Thats the worst possible description of Firmino. He's basically the reverse of that
It’s staggering, isn’t it?
Blimey people are so reactionary - far too early for this thread. City and Liverpool are unfortunately going nowhere yet.
Chelsea and us have still got a lot of catching up to do - although Chelsea appear slightly ahead of us.
Chelsea and us have still got a lot of catching up to do - although Chelsea appear slightly ahead of us.
The crude premise of using age as the main criteria ignores the host of other factors that lead to success or failure.
Imagine setting up a thread about Liverpool (especially) declining because they've their best three attackers are 28 and best defender is 29!
Not to mention young to mid 20s full backs. Keeper a good age etc.
There's no quick drop for any of these. We need to improve ourselves and hope other teams find a solution mixed with their form dropping as a team.
Not to mention young to mid 20s full backs. Keeper a good age etc.
There's no quick drop for any of these. We need to improve ourselves and hope other teams find a solution mixed with their form dropping as a team.
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