Arsenal 22/23 - go to new thread

[Slevs]

I love the jokes and all that but how is this bottling?
They regularly spend seasons 10-20 points behind City/the league leaders and usually struggle in the top 4/top 6 battle.
For them to still be in their current position is an achievement by itself. Not even the most optimistic Arsenal fan would've said they'd finish Top 2 this year.

 

[AshRK]

I love the jokes and all that but how is this bottling?
They regularly spend seasons 10-20 points behind City/the league leaders and usually struggle in the top 4/top 6 battle.
For them to still be in their current position is an achievement by itself. Not even the most optimistic Arsenal fan would've said they'd finish Top 2 this year.

Context matters. Expectations changes as the season progresses. It's like Manchester United bottling top 4 from here. We can't say many did not expect us to be in top 4 at the start of the season.

Arsenal should be both happy with the challenge but should also be disappointed that they dropped silly points in April.

 

[Slevs]

Context matters. Expectations changes as the season progresses. It's like Manchester United bottling top 4 from here. We can't say many did not expect us to be in top 4 at the start of the season.

Arsenal should be both happy with the challenge but should also be disappointed that they dropped silly points in April.

I get your point about context and it definitely applies to us but I'm not sure it applies to them in their case?

Man Utd - expected to be in the top 4 battle. Expected result: either top 4 or barely missing out.
Based on our results so far, if we don't get Top 4 from here its definitely bottling it.

But for Arsenal? Its like saying (for example, not real life) a team such as Bournemouth, who were expected to finish bottom 5, were all the way up to 8th in the season for a consistent period of time, and then slipped up at the end to finish 12/13th.
Is that disappointing? Of course, but bottling?

 

[AshRK]

I get your point about context and it definitely applies to us but I'm not sure it applies to them in their case?

Man Utd - expected to be in the top 4 battle. Expected result: either top 4 or barely missing out.
Based on our results so far, if we don't get Top 4 from here its definitely bottling it.

But for Arsenal? Its like saying (for example, not real life) a team such as Bournemouth, who were expected to finish bottom 5, were all the way up to 8th in the season for a consistent period of time, and then slipped up at the end to finish 12/13th.
Is that disappointing? Of course, but bottling?

Bottling term is harsh but the month of april was a bit anti-climatic. Like I said they should be happy that they were genuine title challengers but the way they let go of the 1st spot is a disappointment. Had they beaten Pool, Westham and soton and then lost to city and surrendered 1st spot then it would have been fair but now it looks like a lost opportunity.

 

[Paranoid Android]

I get your point about context and it definitely applies to us but I'm not sure it applies to them in their case?

Man Utd - expected to be in the top 4 battle. Expected result: either top 4 or barely missing out.
Based on our results so far, if we don't get Top 4 from here its definitely bottling it.

But for Arsenal? Its like saying (for example, not real life) a team such as Bournemouth, who were expected to finish bottom 5, were all the way up to 8th in the season for a consistent period of time, and then slipped up at the end to finish 12/13th.
Is that disappointing? Of course, but bottling?

They've been top of the table for the majority of the season, with all their fans screaming about how they're going to win it throughout, only to feck it up in the last few games. If that isn't bottling I don't know what is.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

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I always find these a little bit misleading - if the teams had played the same amount of games and the equivalent fixtures throughout the season, it would make sense, but Arsenal dropping out of all the cups and having played more league games than City still to this day gives a false view of their actual position.I mean it's obviously still funny, but somewhat misleading.

Lads, we got smashed 7-0 by Liverpool and crashed out of Europe 5-2 after being 2-0 up. We don’t get to talk shit about a team bottling anything.

Of course we do. We're on an internet forum and taking the piss out of rivals is always fine, notwithstanding anything we might be doing. This ridiculous notion we couldn't have fun with it just because we're not riding high has been done to death and it's rather tiresome.

 

[Real Name]

Lads, we got smashed 7-0 by Liverpool and crashed out of Europe 5-2 after being 2-0 up. We don’t get to talk shit about a team bottling anything.

Oh ok then. Sorry.

 

[horsechoker]

Bread is bread, wine is wine

Arsenal have bottled it this time

 

[cafecillos]

Context matters. Expectations changes as the season progresses. It's like Manchester United bottling top 4 from here. We can't say many did not expect us to be in top 4 at the start of the season.

Arsenal should be both happy with the challenge but should also be disappointed that they dropped silly points in April.

They also did it at the expense of everything else, with some horrendous cup performances to boot.

 

[GoonerBear]

Context matters. Expectations changes as the season progresses. It's like Manchester United bottling top 4 from here. We can't say many did not expect us to be in top 4 at the start of the season.

Arsenal should be both happy with the challenge but should also be disappointed that they dropped silly points in April.

Of course context matters, however by the same token you need to also take into account why Arsenal weren't even fancied for top 4 in the first place.
1. People didn't think the team itself was anything special
2. The team was the youngest in the league, with 1 of the youngest inexperienced managers.
3. The squad was seen to lack depth, so any injuries to key players would take their toll.
4. City themselves are high quality, high experience, have run the course multiple times before, with a coach regarded as the best in the world who has won multiple titles in multiple leagues.

So most of these things still ring true, and are what Arsenal were battling against. So i totally agree, with the position Arsenal were in, of course it's disappointing not seeing it through. And i agree with you, they should be happy with the challenge but still have regret over those dropped points. But that's not what a lot of people are coming on the various threads to say now, is it?

Of course we do. We're on an internet forum and taking the piss out of rivals is always fine, notwithstanding anything we might be doing. This ridiculous notion we couldn't have fun with it just because we're not riding high has been done to death and it's rather tiresome.

Yep, fully accepted, but by the same token people shouldn't get all precious when Arsenal fans reply (within reason of course) & compare to Utd's situation, and hide behind "Why always bring Utd (or Chelsea, or whoever they support) into it, its nothing to with them" etc etc. Like you say, that's part of it, so when piss gets taken these fans should
expect a bit back. If someone calls me a fat fecker but they are 3 stone heavier are we meant to ignore that fact?!

They also did it at the expense of everything else, with some horrendous cup performances to boot.

One could argue you were on the verge of a title challenge and lost it at the expense of going further in the cups!

 

[tinfish]

We bottled the league! Simply put we should have won the games we were expected to win.

However, no shame in missing out to city, the best team in the league and the world.

just have to come back stronger next year, I know for a fact this Arsenal team won’t be fading away anytime soon.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Yep, fully accepted, but by the same token people shouldn't get all precious when Arsenal fans reply (within reason of course) & compare to Utd's situation, and hide behind "Why always bring Utd (or Chelsea, or whoever they support) into it, its nothing to with them" etc etc. Like you say, that's part of it, so when piss gets taken these fans should
expect a bit back. If someone calls me a fat fecker but they are 3 stone heavier are we meant to ignore that fact?!

Yes, pretty much. Arsenal's situation has nothing to do with Utd's. Talk about Utd in a different thread if you want, bringing us up as a "well ok we've bottled it but but but you bottled Sevilla" is moronic. Of course we bottled the EL and we know it, but those 2 things aren't exclusive.

 

[GoonerBear]

Yes, pretty much. Arsenal's situation has nothing to do with Utd's. Talk about Utd in a different thread if you want, bringing us up as a "well ok we've bottled it but but but you bottled Sevilla" is moronic. Of course we bottled the EL and we know it, but those 2 things aren't exclusive.

I appreciate I'm a guest on a Utd forum, so i try to stay respectful in that way. Do you think it would be better for me as an oppo fan to go onto the various Utd threads and start mocking, or just to reply to various retorts about Arsenal in the Arsenal thread?!

And why is that argument moronic? I could equally say it's moronic for someone wearing glasses to call someone else Speccy for wearing glasses! But i'm not the one complaining when the other glasses wearer points this out!

 

[WeePat]

Why does he have to be so condescending

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[Chief123]

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying your a bit obsessed. I mean, people in glass houses, shouldn't throw bottles around is more my point.

You need to let it go.

 

[GoonerBear]

You need to let it go.

Ditto.

 

[Chief123]

I love the jokes and all that but how is this bottling?
They regularly spend seasons 10-20 points behind City/the league leaders and usually struggle in the top 4/top 6 battle.
For them to still be in their current position is an achievement by itself. Not even the most optimistic Arsenal fan would've said they'd finish Top 2 this year.

Jokes aside, I don’t know how it can’t be explained as anything other than bottling it. Bottling it comes in situations where the pressure is on and you don’t handle the pressure in circumstances where you are expected to.

Despite some hard attempts to deflect from it being a bottle job, how can it be described as anything else. Look at the context. They blew the title in those 4 games in a row without a win. It’s not like they had their 4 toughest games of the season in that period. They blew 2 goal leads in consecutive games which they should have won comfortably. Then they mentally collapsed at home
against the worst team in the league conceding 3 goals to them at home. And then completely folded against City.

Their efforts are nothing to be ashamed of. It’s been a great effort but they failed to achieve what they want because they couldn’t handle the pressure. But that is nothing new for Arsenal.

 

[Offside]

A team who is several points clear in APRIL and then decides to go on a 4 game winless run, throwing away a two goal lead twice, drawing at home to bottom of the league and getting absolutely annihilated by your closest challengers. What else can you call that other than a bottle job?

This is the same club who, since they last won the league (or anything other than the FA Cup for that matter):
- blew a 5 point lead in February 2008 to finish third
- finished 4th in a 2 horse race in 2011
- went from 1st to 5th in a 2 month collapse in 2014
- were favourites for the league in 2016, top at new year, but finished 2nd to a 5000/1 outsider
- lost 5 of their last 7 games last season to finish 5th when they'd been in the top 4 for 6 months

It's the history of the Arsenal.

 

[Changeisgood]

Kiwior looks like a decent pick up. He will be a much better option than Holding in the long term. I feel we should let Holding go. I like the guy, and he could be a decent CB for a mid to lower table team but he simply doesn't work for us. Our defensive positioning in transition is not great. Saliba and Gabriel have helped hide this deficiency for much of the season but with potentially both being out now, we need better like for like alternatives. It's already looking kinda bleak now table wise but going to Newcastle with Holding and an untested Kiwior is not ideal. I still expect City to drop points in one...two might be a stretch. We have to obviously win all 4.

 

[Chief123]

We bottled the league! Simply put we should have won the games we were expected to win.

However, no shame in missing out to city, the best team in the league and the world.

just have to come back stronger next year, I know for a fact this Arsenal team won’t be fading away anytime soon.

Fair play to you. At least some Arsenal fans can see it for what it is. Others seem to be struggling with it.

 

[The Corinthian]

A team who is several points clear in APRIL and then decides to go on a 4 game winless run, throwing away a two goal lead twice, drawing at home to bottom of the league and getting absolutely annihilated by your closest challengers. What else can you call that other than a bottle job?

This is the same club who, since they last won the league (or anything other than the FA Cup for that matter):
- blew a 5 point lead in February 2008 to finish third
- finished 4th in a 2 horse race in 2011
- went from 1st to 5th in a 2 month collapse in 2014
- were favourites for the league in 2016, top at new year, but finished 2nd to a 5000/1 outsider
- lost 5 of their last 7 games last season to finish 5th when they'd been in the top 4 for 6 months

It's the history of the Arsenal.

It’s their heritage.

 

[maniak]

Personally I always thought the city matches would decide the whole thing. We lost them both, we're done. The "comfortable" lead was always a bit misleading, city always had games in hand.

 

[GoonerBear]

Fair play to you. At least some Arsenal fans can see it for what it is. Others seem to be struggling with it.

By the way, I'm not arguing with you that we have a mentality issue. I'll admit I don't like the term bottling because it's more complex than a label like that, but we certainly aren't Mentality Monsters (using Klopps phrase) shall we say.
However if bottling is the label of choice, then yeah, we suffer from it still in certain moments. I think complacency as well at times like the games we were 2 now up in and the stats show our running stats etc dropped off. I think PTSD as well in certain places like Old Trafford, The Etihad, Anfield.

 

[Real Name]

Personally I always thought the city matches would decide the whole thing. We lost them both, we're done. The "comfortable" lead was always a bit misleading, city always had games in hand.

They did, but lost points in West Ham, Liverpool and Southampton games certainly didn't help.

 

[maniak]

They did, but lost points in West Ham, Liverpool and Southampton games certainly didn't help.

For sure, and that's where the bitter taste comes from, but in the end it balances out with the ridiculous points we were lucky to get in the last seconds of a few matches. The way I see it, even though it's disappointing, the matches against city showed we're a level below. For me the worst about losing is when it's unfair, in this case it isn't, they are better.

 

[Chief123]

For sure, and that's where the bitter taste comes from, but in the end it balances out with the ridiculous points we were lucky to get in the last seconds of a few matches. The way I see it, even though it's disappointing, the matches against city showed we're a level below. For me the worst about losing is when it's unfair, in this case it isn't, they are better.

The football Arsenal played at times this season wasn’t that far away from the level City are playing. Arsenal obviously lacked in experience and know how.

However, the expectation was always that City would likely win the head to head but that didn’t matter as long as Arsenal won the previous 3 games which they should have.

For me the turning point will always be the moment Xhaka ignited tensions with Salah while 2-0 up at anfield. Arsenal were absolutely cruising. I’ve never seen Liverpool at anfield be so dominated at home up to that point. They looked like deer in headlights. They were ready to fold. Even the likes of Carra were commentating saying what a shambles Liverpool were. After that incident the crowd got angry and the atmosphere lifted. Salah scored immediately after it and that’s where Arsenal went into their shell for the rest of the game.

If Arsenal came away with the win they should have, it would have given immense belief in the title run. Especially considering how good Liverpools record at home is and how poor Arsenals has been at anfield.

If Arsenal won that game, I believe they’d still be top now.

 

[Siorac]

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"It's the history of the Arsenal"

 

[GoonerBear]

The football Arsenal played at times this season wasn’t that far away from the level City are playing. Arsenal obviously lacked in experience and know how.

However, the expectation was always that City would likely win the head to head but that didn’t matter as long as Arsenal won the previous 3 games which they should have.

For me the turning point will always be the moment Xhaka ignited tensions with Salah while 2-0 up at anfield. Arsenal were absolutely cruising. I’ve never seen Liverpool at anfield be so dominated at home up to that point. They looked like deer in headlights. They were ready to fold. Even the likes of Carra were commentating saying what a shambles Liverpool were. After that incident the crowd got angry and the atmosphere lifted. Salah scored immediately after it and that’s where Arsenal went into their shell for the rest of the game.

If Arsenal came away with the win they should have, it would have given immense belief in the title run. Especially considering how good Liverpools record at home is and how poor Arsenals has been at anfield.

If Arsenal won that game, I believe they’d still be top now.

Like this Chief better, good post and hard to disagree.

I'll add another thing that concerns me about this current Arsenal team. It's a young team with sprinkles of experience.

But look at the more experienced players. Xhaka, Partey, Gabriel, even Zinchenko and Jesus. They are all emotional players. They play on the edge, they like to contest every decision, like to moan to the ref, sometimes throw themselves about etc.

These traits don't tend to lend themselves to calm heads needed in a run in, or when the chips are down. Look at the likes of De Bruyne for instance. He's more cold, focused etc. I don't necessarily see that as an experience issue, more a character issue. I'd trust Saliba in the heat of a battle not to lose his head more than Gabriel for instance.

So in that regard, we need some more good characters in the team.

 

[Daydreamer]

Like this Chief better, good post and hard to disagree.

I'll add another thing that concerns me about this current Arsenal team. It's a young team with sprinkles of experience.

But look at the more experienced players. Xhaka, Partey, Gabriel, even Zinchenko and Jesus. They are all emotional players. They play on the edge, they like to contest every decision, like to moan to the ref, sometimes throw themselves about etc.

These traits don't tend to lend themselves to calm heads needed in a run in, or when the chips are down. Look at the likes of De Bruyne for instance. He's more cold, focused etc. I don't necessarily see that as an experience issue, more a character issue. I'd trust Saliba in the heat of a battle not to lose his head more than Gabriel for instance.

So in that regard, we need some more good characters in the team.

You make a good point about calm heads.. There’s been a lot of lazy analysis for the last two seasons about our inexperience costing us. But it was Aubayang, Lacazette, Holding, El Neny, Willian and Tavares that let us down last season. This season Holding has struggled again, Partey and Zinchenko’s form dipped precipitously as the run-in started and Jesus hasn’t been clinical enough in the big moments. For all the talk about our kids not being able to handle it, only one of our younger players (Tavares) has let us down. And we shipped him out on loan for it.

Arteta has been great, but he’s been far too loyal to certain players. Jorginho and Kiwior were given a chance against Chelsea. They should have started earlier in our run of four games where we dropped points. We won all seven games that Trossard started. Then we dropped him four the three draws and a loss. He’s come back in for his eight win. We really needed to pick players on form in the run-in

 

[Chief123]

Like this Chief better, good post and hard to disagree.

I'll add another thing that concerns me about this current Arsenal team. It's a young team with sprinkles of experience.

But look at the more experienced players. Xhaka, Partey, Gabriel, even Zinchenko and Jesus. They are all emotional players. They play on the edge, they like to contest every decision, like to moan to the ref, sometimes throw themselves about etc.

These traits don't tend to lend themselves to calm heads needed in a run in, or when the chips are down. Look at the likes of De Bruyne for instance. He's more cold, focused etc. I don't necessarily see that as an experience issue, more a character issue. I'd trust Saliba in the heat of a battle not to lose his head more than Gabriel for instance.

So in that regard, we need some more good characters in the team.

I do agree with regards to emotional players. Right through your spine which is the most important zone, you’ve got Ramsdale, Gabriel, Zinchenko, Xhaka and Jesus who are all high emotion. You needed the likes of Dias, Akanji, Gundogan, KDB and Haaland who play with a cold temperament.

 

[Irwin99]

I’d love to see it happen but it’s not going to. Arsenal have drawn one game too many. Had they won the Southampton game they’d still have a small chance but potentially 4 points behind City with a worse GD and harder fixtures to come, I think it’s done. City would have to have a few really bad results and Arsenal go on a run for this to be possible.

Agree with that. I think City would have to lose one game and draw another and i don't see it happening. The GD is another killer because you never know, City might draw two games (slim chance) but they still have it won on goal difference which is plus 12 at the moment.

....still, hope springs eternal though and maybe Brighton might beat City and Brentford nick a draw

 

[Irwin99]

I love the jokes and all that but how is this bottling?
They regularly spend seasons 10-20 points behind City/the league leaders and usually struggle in the top 4/top 6 battle.
For them to still be in their current position is an achievement by itself. Not even the most optimistic Arsenal fan would've said they'd finish Top 2 this year.

I think as other people said it's the context: you can lose against City easily in a head to head and any team can drop points at Anfield but come on, if you're chasing a title and you're so close you can not ship three goals to Southampton after also drawing against West Ham. Had they won those games the match against City would have been far less damaging. Happened to United in 11/12 with a defeat to Wigan and then the 4-4 draw against Everton; if we had won those games our match against City would have been irrelevant but we fecked it up when we really shouldn't have.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Agree with that. I think City would have to lose one game and draw another and i don't see it happening. The GD is another killer because you never know, City might draw two games (slim chance) but they still have it won on goal difference which is plus 12 at the moment.

....still, hope springs eternal though and maybe Brighton might beat City and Brentford nick a draw

To be honest I’m resigned to them winning the league and CL, with us hopefully turning up on FA cup final day. I don’t fancy Madrid this year - they look crap and at the end of the Ancelotti cycle.

 

[Shark]

Beating a Chelsea side facing potential relegation at home doesn't convince me they're going to challenge City.

 

[ThatsGreat]

If Arsenal hadn't just recently gone four games in a row without a win - including games against West Ham, Southampton and a Liverpool team that hadn't recovered their form like they're gradually starting to do now - they'd still be in an excellent position to win the title even with City's two games in hand. The loss to city was the only one of those four that can be called inevitable.

I don't personally believe in concepts like bottle jobs and such, but under no circumstances were Arsenal "never winning the title." They stumbled just before the finish line and it should have been very avoidable. This wasn't some case where a fluke left them in 1st place and then everything returned to normal. Arsenal absolutely could have gone the distance, even losing to City and potentially Newcastle.

Our loss of form neatly coincided with Saliba going out. There are very fine margins but losing one vital player sealed our fate. It was always going to be tough going the entire season with the main players fit which is whats required when you're competing against City.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I love the jokes and all that but how is this bottling?
They regularly spend seasons 10-20 points behind City/the league leaders and usually struggle in the top 4/top 6 battle.
For them to still be in their current position is an achievement by itself. Not even the most optimistic Arsenal fan would've said they'd finish Top 2 this year.

Mainly dropping unacceptable points to relegation sides at a time when the pressure started coming on.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I love the jokes and all that but how is this bottling?
They regularly spend seasons 10-20 points behind City/the league leaders and usually struggle in the top 4/top 6 battle.
For them to still be in their current position is an achievement by itself. Not even the most optimistic Arsenal fan would've said they'd finish Top 2 this year.

They’ve lost the PL to relegation sides, and they’ve done it the moment it really mattered.

I agree that the term ‘bottled it’ gets overused, but Arsenal have completely bottled the PL this season.

They should’ve been able to do their predictable rolling over for Arteta’s master in the City game and still won the league.

 

[Changeisgood]

I wouldn't have a problem calling our players bottlers if I believed it was so. But the idea of bottling is for me based on that a team has the experience and the expectation to win...in this case the league. We didn't have either at the start of the season and we are still quite short on the experience side. There is a case to be made that we messed up at home vs Soton....no doubt about it, and there were some other near ones throughout the season, such as Bournemouth where we escaped with the 3 pts. If Trossard shot vs Soton goes under the crossbar we would suddenly have been great at finding a way to win.

I believe those games and the West Ham game show we are not that solid, especially defensively we have a fair bit of work to do, both in preparation, training but also we need some more depth. The lack of depth and maturity were made painfully obvious the last month.

City on the other hand is a well tuned disciplined experienced machine with a freak knocking goals in for fun. If they had failed I would have considered that more bottling. Now if we are in a similar situation next season and we fail to get over the line ..id be tempted to reevaluate my opinion.

 

[Buxton]

When I watch the likes of Man Utd and Chelsea play football . I feel very lucky that we got Arteta as manager. We hit the jackpot there. Seeing teams spend hundreds of millions and look no better than before, shows how tough it is to make the jump we did this season. The challenge obviously is to repeat it next season but we look best placed to be city’s main challengers again. .
never mind the bottle, it’s the ball , these other teams can’t cope with.

 

[Edwards6]

When I watch the likes of Man Utd and Chelsea play football . I feel very lucky that we got Arteta as manager. We hit the jackpot there. Seeing teams spend hundreds of millions and look no better than before, shows how tough it is to make the jump we did this season. The challenge obviously is to repeat it next season but we look best placed to be city’s main challengers again. .
never mind the bottle, it’s the ball , these other teams can’t cope with.

Let's see where United are when Ten Hag has had the time to build his team like Arteta has had, luckily he won't be finishing 8th 8th 5th on the way. Were you not one of the Arsenal fans begging for him to be sacked less than a year ago?