Arsenal 22/23 - go to new thread

Powderfinger

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Yes only include the last 8 years and only include the PL.

Perhaps add a few more filters so you can support your argument?
OK, so you don't have any examples.

The PL is by far the most physically demanding league in the world and it underwent a big change in terms of style of play over (roughly) the last 7-8 years, much more press-heavy, more end-to-end action, fewer teams just siting back. If we want to think about how players are likely to fare past 30 in that environment, probably best to consider the experiences of comparable 30+ midfielders in the same environment, not ones who are jogging around in Serie A or who spent the early 2000s tidily pinging passes around PL grounds with nobody applying too much pressure on them and every lower table side sitting deep and trying to nick a goal on the counter.
 

TheReligion

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OK, so you don't have any examples.

The PL is by far the most physically demanding league in the world and it underwent a big change in terms of style of play over the last 7-8 years. If we want to think about how players are likely to fare past 30 in that environment, probably best to consider the experiences of comparable 30+ midfielders in the same environment, not ones who are jogging around in Serie A or who spent the early 2000s tidily pinging passes around PL grounds with nobody applying too much pressure on them and every lower table side sitting deep and trying to nick a goal on the counter.
So 8/9 games in and Partey is the best DM to grace the league. And every player in that position who gets to 30 drops off a cliff.

Complete and utter bollocks
 

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6 points from United (A), Spurs (H) and Liverpool (H) is a great start, even if I think you've had the rub of the green with penalty decisions against Liverpool and the red card for Spurs.
Yeah, but the 2 we won were the 2 home games. First big test away we got beat. That needs to improve.

Another day, another case of Arsenal fans giving it the big un in terms of all their players being the best.

Childlike.
I see 1 Arsenal fan saying that so far, and they are the 1 that always think like that.
 

TheReligion

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I see 1 Arsenal fan saying that so far, and they are the 1 that always think like that.
Fair enough. Just seems every time I’m in these threads it’s always the same rubbish. Saliba the best CB in the PL, Gabriel better than Martinez, Partey the best DM in the world, Odegaard on par with KdB.

Pretty embarrassing really
 

Powderfinger

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So 8/9 games in and Partey is the best DM to grace the league. And every player in that position who gets to 30 drops off a cliff.

Complete and utter bollocks
In my original post, I said Partey was never near the levels of these other players and wasn't likely to get better/healthier at 29.

Almost all top level DMs/CMs have dropped off some kind of cliff in the PL at age 31 or maybe 32 in the last 7-8 years. Look at the list of top DM/CMs who have or seem to be doing it right now: Cazorla, Fabregas, Dembele, Matic, Kante, Jorginho, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Henderson. Now look at the list of players who haven't: Fernandinho. That's just the reality, if you want to pretend its not true because its more convenient to think that Casemiro will be a world class player for the next three years, go ahead.
 

TheReligion

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In my original post, I said Partey was never near the levels of these other players and wasn't likely to get better/healthier at 29.

Almost all top level DMs/CMs have dropped off some kind of cliff in the PL at age 31 or maybe 32 in the last 7-8 years. Look at the list of top DM/CMs who have or seem to be doing it right now: Cazorla, Fabregas, Dembele, Matic, Kante, Jorginho, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Henderson. Now look at the list of players who haven't: Fernandinho. That's just the reality, if you want to pretend its not true because its more convenient to think that Casemiro will be a world class player for the next three years, go ahead.
As I say, Casemiro is a World Class DM currently. He’s on the shortlist for the Ballon d’Orr and a few months ago bossed Liverpool in the CL final. If he regresses fair enough but to suggest he isn’t currently is a lie.
 

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Fair enough. Just seems every time I’m in these threads it’s always the same rubbish. Saliba the best CB in the PL, Gabriel better than Martinez, Partey the best DM in the world, Odegaard on par with KdB.

Pretty embarrassing really
Not a fan of it myself to be honest (even though I started the Gabriel debate, but I didn't say he was better....let's not go back there). :D
 

ThierryHenry14

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I am surprised we collected points from Spurs and Liverpool, so this season the chance for a CL spot is a bit higher. It is still really early in the season and we need a back up for Partey. Edu will probaby try again to bring in Douglas Luiz in January. He won't cost a fortune with his contract expiring.
 

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This seems accurate to me as a backward looking assessment - essentially, how good players have been in their careers. Partey has played at a very high level in spurts but never had the consistency and ability to stay healthy to be ranked in a higher tier. I don't see him getting healthier at this point in his career and he obviously has another issue not to be talked about in this thread that could impact his availability as well.

But I don't think I would bet on Casemiro or Fabinho to be better than him going forward (assuming he stays unsuspended for the moment). As the PL became a press heavy, higher tempo league in the last 7-8 years, it has been a complete graveyard for top level central midfielders past 30 - Cazorla was done at 31, Schweinsteiger done at 31, Dembele done at 31, Fabregas done at 31, Matic done as a top level player at 31, Kante seems done as a top level player at 31, same with Jorginho, Thiago is still tidy at 31 but can't really keep up physically, Henderson looks totally cooked having just hit 32, etc. The game is just so physically demanding now for CMs, guys just don't have the legs to keep up past 30 and often their bodies break down as they try. The only real exception during this period was Fernandinho and, likely not coincidentally, he played for a side that other teams gave up trying to press and spends 80% of the game camped in one half of the field rather than going end-to-end all match.

Casemiro is 31 in four months. Until proven otherwise, the safe bet is that he goes on the trajectory of these other CMs and struggles mightily with the physical strains of the PL, never playing at a consistent elite level again. Fabinho will only turn 29 later this month, but he has played an unusually massive number of first team minutes in his career (more than older players like Casemiro, Thiago, or Kante for example) so he seems a likely candidate for an early decline.

The best bets to play at a top level in the PL over the next couple years are Rodri, Guimaraes, and Rice. Hojbjerg is not close to them IMO.
I guess KDB's finished then...
 

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Think that's a bit more hyoerbole. So no Fabinho, no Casimero, the first 2 that come to my head?
That is a fair statement to be honest. On current form, so far this season he's probably right. Fabinho hasn't played well since last season (and was terrible towards the end) and Casemiro hasn't played that much. Taking that into account it's not an outrageous statement.
 

Powderfinger

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I guess KDB's finished then...
He really isn't a DM/CM in the same way as the others in this list, more of an 8/10 hybrid. And he plays for the team that gets pressed the least in the entire league and spends the most time in one half of the field so I wouldn't be surprised if he has another top level year or two in him.
 

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That is a fair statement to be honest. On current form, so far this season he's probably right. Fabinho hasn't played well since last season (and was terrible towards the end) and Casemiro hasn't played that much. Taking that into account it's not an outrageous statement.
Even taking that into account Partey has played 3, missed 3 and played another 3. And I say that as someone who realises how important Partey is to us.
 

the_cliff

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Even taking that into account Partey has played 3, missed 3 and played another 3. And I say that as someone who realises how important Partey is to us.
Who would you say this season has so far performed better than Partey in that role other than Rodri ?

6 games out of 9 is still a decent amount of games played. I'm not saying Partey is better than Casemiro but Casemiro had his first start on Sunday so you can't really include him and I'm a United fan.
 

the_cliff

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He really isn't a DM/CM in the same way as the others in this list, more of an 8/10 hybrid. And he plays for the team that gets pressed the least in the entire league and spends the most time in one half of the field so I wouldn't be surprised if he has another top level year or two in him.
I think he meant the fact that he's 31...
 

redcucumber

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In my original post, I said Partey was never near the levels of these other players and wasn't likely to get better/healthier at 29.

Almost all top level DMs/CMs have dropped off some kind of cliff in the PL at age 31 or maybe 32 in the last 7-8 years. Look at the list of top DM/CMs who have or seem to be doing it right now: Cazorla, Fabregas, Dembele, Matic, Kante, Jorginho, Schweinsteiger, Thiago, Henderson. Now look at the list of players who haven't: Fernandinho. That's just the reality, if you want to pretend its not true because its more convenient to think that Casemiro will be a world class player for the next three years, go ahead.
Schweinsteiger is a very random example to include, he was £6m punt and was already finished when we signed him. Thiago is one of Liverpool's best performers while Jorginho is an important part of Chelsea's first team, so you've got a few really random additions there. Gundogan is over 30 and performing to a high level, as is Eriksen at United. Fernandinho, Gundogan, Thiago, Jorginho, and Eriksen off the top of my head. We'd need a Chelsea fan to tell us whether or not Kante is still considered an important player for them. Plenty of examples of players performing in central midfield above the age of 30, and Casemiro is easily the most highly decorated.
 

TheReligion

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Schweinsteiger is a very random example to include, he was £6m punt and was already finished when we signed him. Thiago is one of Liverpool's best performers while Jorginho is an important part of Chelsea's first team, so you've got a few really random additions there. Gundogan is over 30 and performing to a high level, as is Eriksen at United. Fernandinho, Gundogan, Thiago, Jorginho, and Eriksen off the top of my head. We'd need a Chelsea fan to tell us whether or not Kante is still considered an important player for them. Plenty of examples of players performing in central midfield above the age of 30, and Casemiro is easily the most highly decorated.
The poster quoted is pretty clueless on the topic

All good examples you’ve added.
 

Powderfinger

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Schweinsteiger is a very random example to include, he was £6m punt and was already finished when we signed him. Thiago is one of Liverpool's best performers while Jorginho is an important part of Chelsea's first team, so you've got a few really random additions there. Gundogan is over 30 and performing to a high level, as is Eriksen at United. Fernandinho, Gundogan, Thiago, Jorginho, and Eriksen off the top of my head. We'd need a Chelsea fan to tell us whether or not Kante is still considered an important player for them. Plenty of examples of players performing in central midfield above the age of 30, and Casemiro is easily the most highly decorated.
Thiago really can't keep up physically in an intense match at this point (for example, watch him on Arsenal's second goal over the weekend), although still a good passer and very tidy player on the ball. Jorginho really fell off last year as well, although again if put in a situation where he is protected and doesn't have to run a lot he could still do well. Kante looks crocked at this point. There's a reason Chelsea is letting them both leave next summer. Eriksen we'll see about. Obviously some unusual circumstances with his injury, but he hasn't played over 2000 league minutes in a season since 2018-19 and I'm skeptical that he can keep up physically. Gundogan is still playing at a very high level but he is a squad player in a side that makes it easier physically on their players than any other because they spend so little time chasing the ball or running end-to-end. He is literally in the 1st percentile for pressures among midfielders in the top five leagues.

PL football today is a young man's game, at least outside GKs and to a lesser extent CBs.
 

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Who would you say this season has so far performed better than Partey in that role other than Rodri ?

6 games out of 9 is still a decent amount of games played. I'm not saying Partey is better than Casemiro but Casemiro had his first start on Sunday so you can't really include him and I'm a United fan.
But is 6 games enough to class someone as world class, as was his original point?
 

TheReligion

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Thiago really can't keep up physically in an intense match at this point (for example, watch him on Arsenal's second goal over the weekend), although still a good passer and very tidy player on the ball. Jorginho really fell off last year as well, although again if put in a situation where he is protected and doesn't have to run a lot he could still do well. Kante looks crocked at this point. There's a reason Chelsea is letting them both leave next summer. Eriksen we'll see about. Obviously some unusual circumstances with his injury, but he hasn't played over 2000 league minutes in a season since 2018-19 and I'm skeptical that he can keep up physically. Gundogan is still playing at a very high level but he is a squad player in a side that makes it easier physically on their players than any other because they spend so little time chasing the ball or running end-to-end. He is literally in the 1st percentile for pressures among midfielders in the top five leagues.

PL football today is a young man's game, at least outside GKs and to a lesser extent CBs.
Eriksen was MOTM v Arsenal and dominated the midfield battle.

Thiago bossed Arsenal for large chunks of the game at weekend too.

This narrative that players fall off a cliff at 30 needs to die. Especially when you have the likes of Modric, Lewandowski still at the very top of their game and plenty of players in the 30/31 bracket still doing it in the PL and elsewhere.
 

BurgerVan

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Eriksen was MOTM v Arsenal and dominated the midfield battle.

Thiago bossed Arsenal for large chunks of the game at weekend too.

This narrative that players fall off a cliff at 30 needs to die. Especially when you have the likes of Modric, Lewandowski still at the very top of their game and plenty of players in the 30/31 bracket still doing it in the PL and elsewhere.
Honestly, the way you re-invent that game at Old Trafford from a few weeks ago, it really makes me chuckle. Nothing Utd did that day was domination, go read the match thread here and just about every report out there. Utd did really well in moments, like really well and hats off for that, but come on!! I believe they should of been one down if not for a very generous decision, and it looked like there was only one winner for most of it. The better team doesn't always win and that is part of the attraction.

We beat Liverpool when they won the league 18 months ago, it was unbelievable, they absolutely battered us for about 88 of the 90 minutes, but we somehow won the game. I don't then say, ah we dominated that one. I get it that you hate Arsenal, you post more anti-Arsenal stuff than the rest of the forum combined, but lets tell it how it is eh.
 

Powderfinger

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Eriksen was MOTM v Arsenal and dominated the midfield battle.

Thiago bossed Arsenal for large chunks of the game at weekend too.

This narrative that players fall off a cliff at 30 needs to die. Especially when you have the likes of Modric, Lewandowski still at the very top of their game and plenty of players in the 30/31 bracket still doing it in the PL and elsewhere.
Not going to be drawn into an argument who bossed/dominated a specific match, but the issue is whether you can play at a high level over an entire season dealing with all the accumulated physical rigors that come with playing in the PL week in and week out.

Age curves are a thing. Not every player will follow the same trajectory but to ignore the overall trend is silly. Outside of GKs and to a lesser extent CBs, players overall tend to peak age 24-29 (as shown by a lot of statistical work) and the recent track record of players aged 31+ in the PL is really bad.
 

TheReligion

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Not going to be drawn into an argument who bossed/dominated a specific match, but the issue is whether you can play at a high level over an entire season dealing with all the accumulated physical rigors that come with playing in the PL week in and week out.

Age curves are a thing. Not every player will follow the same trajectory but to ignore the overall trend is silly. Outside of GKs and to a lesser extent CBs, players overall tend to peak age 24-29 and the recent track record of players aged 31+ in the PL is really bad.
Its not really an argument. Eriksen was MOTM v Arsenal and I’m sure you’ll agree Thiago dominated for Liverpool in long spells.

When you consider the number of other players who are 30+ in the league and still at the top level your argument falls a little flat.
 

Powderfinger

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Its not really an argument. Eriksen was MOTM v Arsenal and I’m sure you’ll agree Thiago dominated for Liverpool in long spells.

When you consider the number of other players who are 30+ in the league and still at the top level your argument falls a little flat.
Outside of GKs and CBs, how many aged 31+ players (its really at 31 and beyond where you start to see the age curve accelerate) who are playing consistently at a truly top level in the PL do you see right now?

KDB obviously. Gundogan and Mahrez can play at a high level but are really rotation players, not regular starters. Thiago we've discussed. Who else are we talking about here?
 

TheReligion

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Outside of GKs and CBs, how many aged 31+ players (its really at 31 and beyond where you start to see the age curve accelerate) who are playing consistently at a truly top level in the PL do you see right now?

KDB obviously. Gundogan and Mahrez can play at a high level but are really rotation players, not regular starters. Thiago we've discussed. Who else are we talking about here?
I’m not repeating all the current and historic names you’ve already been given.

Sports science and athletes taking better care of themselves is actually starting to prolong careers now and a players prime age used to be seen as 27 but is now steadily rising.

If a player looks after themselves, and they are managed correctly, there’s no reason why they can’t play in to their mid 30s. Especially the very best.
 

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Fair enough. Just seems every time I’m in these threads it’s always the same rubbish. Saliba the best CB in the PL, Gabriel better than Martinez, Partey the best DM in the world, Odegaard on par with KdB.

Pretty embarrassing really
I've yet to see anyone say Odegaard is as good as KdB. Qualifying Saliba as the best CB in PL is clearly premature. Both Gabriel and Martinez have their own strengths and weaknesses. Also hyperbole to say Partey is the best DM in the world - I think some Arsenal fans think that because he is so key to the team playing well and our record with him vs when he is injured is very lopsided.
 

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I’m not repeating all the current and historic names you’ve already been given.

Sports science and athletes taking better care of themselves is actually starting to prolong careers now and a players prime age used to be seen as 27 but is now steadily rising.

If a player looks after themselves, and they are managed correctly, there’s no reason why they can’t play in to their mid 30s. Especially the very best.
Scared to get involved in this debate, but did you not have similar reservations when Chelsea signed Koulibaly?
 

TheReligion

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Did you not have similar reservations when Chelsea signed Koulibaly?
Yep, although not sure of the relevance here? I didnt brand every player who hits 30 to be on the decline. I also highlighted his injury record, the fact he’d only ever played in the slower paced Serie A along with a few other things. It wasn’t solely based on age like this seems to be.
 

TheReligion

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Honestly, the way you re-invent that game at Old Trafford from a few weeks ago, it really makes me chuckle. Nothing Utd did that day was domination, go read the match thread here and just about every report out there. Utd did really well in moments, like really well and hats off for that, but come on!! I believe they should of been one down if not for a very generous decision, and it looked like there was only one winner for most of it. The better team doesn't always win and that is part of the attraction.

We beat Liverpool when they won the league 18 months ago, it was unbelievable, they absolutely battered us for about 88 of the 90 minutes, but we somehow won the game. I don't then say, ah we dominated that one. I get it that you hate Arsenal, you post more anti-Arsenal stuff than the rest of the forum combined, but lets tell it how it is eh.
I’m giving you a fact. The 30 year old Eriksen was MOTM against Arsenal. I’m not sure what you’re disputing here?

I’ve no idea what you’re rambling on about but the fact you saw Arsenal as the better team despite conceding 3 goals (should have been more by the way), speaks volumes.

You should know having the most possession during a match doesn’t make you entitled to win it. Just like your game at the weekend in which Liverpool had more of the ball but you beat them by being direct and breaking quickly.
 

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Yep, although not sure of the relevance here? I didnt brand every player who hits 30 to be on the decline. I also highlighted his injury record, the fact he’d only ever played in the slower paced Serie A along with a few other things. It wasn’t solely based on age like this seems to be.
Fair do's. I think a few of the same question marks apply to Casimero, but I also think both are class players so should do well. Will be intriguing to see how both do considering their age and reputation.
 

TheReligion

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Fair do's. I think a few of the same question marks apply to Casimero, but I also think both are class players so should do well. Will be intriguing to see how both do considering their age and reputation.
I think the key differences being ignored are his phenomenal injury record, the fact he dominated Liverpool in the CL final (and was MOTM in the super cup a few months ago) and that he’s a current Ballon d’Orr nominee.

Anyone who knows anything about Casemiro should realise he’s a student of the game and is still at the peak of his powers.

Its much easier to write him off though because he’s 30 but it’s a bit daft to when you consider the above in my opinion.
 

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Honestly, the way you re-invent that game at Old Trafford from a few weeks ago, it really makes me chuckle. Nothing Utd did that day was domination, go read the match thread here and just about every report out there. Utd did really well in moments, like really well and hats off for that, but come on!! I believe they should of been one down if not for a very generous decision, and it looked like there was only one winner for most of it. The better team doesn't always win and that is part of the attraction.

We beat Liverpool when they won the league 18 months ago, it was unbelievable, they absolutely battered us for about 88 of the 90 minutes, but we somehow won the game. I don't then say, ah we dominated that one. I get it that you hate Arsenal, you post more anti-Arsenal stuff than the rest of the forum combined, but lets tell it how it is eh.
Only one winner for the most of it? You're kidding, right? How many chances did you create? Your goal came from an unusual Varane brainfart and then a fortuitous deflection which fell to Saka. You didn't dominate shit, you didn't create shit and you conceded three goals.
 

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Only one winner for the most of it? You're kidding, right? How many chances did you create? Your goal came from an unusual Varane brainfart and then a fortuitous deflection which fell to Saka. You didn't dominate shit, you didn't create shit and you conceded three goals.
Yes you read that right. Go and read the match thread and see what your fellow supporters thought at the time. Let's not re-write history. We scored a perfectly good goal, ruled out by the softest of VAR decisions, we score that and then the 10 men behind the ball and break tactics don't work.

61% possession and 16 attempts. Utd were just ruthless in the right moments, which I have credited you for, but that game was there for the taking. Let's see how you do at the Emirates.
 

GoonerBear

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I think the key differences being ignored are his phenomenal injury record, the fact he dominated Liverpool in the CL final (and was MOTM in the super cup a few months ago) and that he’s a current Ballon d’Orr nominee.

Anyone who knows anything about Casemiro should realise he’s a student of the game and is still at the peak of his powers.

Its much easier to write him off though because he’s 30 but it’s a bit daft to when you consider the above in my opinion.
Yeah, I'm certainly not writing him off. Do I have my reservations, yeah I would be lying if I didn't, but would I be surprised if he settles down to be a top player in this league, I certainly would not.

Changing subject slightly, what's the general view been of Varane?
 

TheReligion

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Yeah, I'm certainly not writing him off. Do I have my reservations, yeah I would be lying if I didn't, but would I be surprised if he settles down to be a top player in this league, I certainly would not.

Changing subject slightly, what's the general view been of Varane?
Varane had a mixed first season but much of that was due to injury, the form of Maguire and lack of consistency in the defence.

This season he’s developed a good partnership with Martinez and his quality has really shown. Both appear to compliment each other very well.

Whilst United weren’t great against City is was only 1-0 when Varane picked up his injury. It was no coincidence that we conceded 5 after this point and when he wasn’t on the pitch.

I think CB partnerships and consistency are probably the most important on the pitch and are usually a hallmark of any successful team.
 

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Yes you read that right. Go and read the match thread and see what your fellow supporters thought at the time. Let's not re-write history. We scored a perfectly good goal, ruled out by the softest of VAR decisions, we score that and then the 10 men behind the ball and break tactics don't work.

61% possession and 16 attempts. Utd were just ruthless in the right moments, which I have credited you for, but that game was there for the taking. Let's see how you do at the Emirates.
If you're basing your opinion on the matchday thread... I really don't know what to say to you, my man :lol:
 

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Yes you read that right. Go and read the match thread and see what your fellow supporters thought at the time. Let's not re-write history. We scored a perfectly good goal, ruled out by the softest of VAR decisions, we score that and then the 10 men behind the ball and break tactics don't work.

61% possession and 16 attempts. Utd were just ruthless in the right moments, which I have credited you for, but that game was there for the taking. Let's see how you do at the Emirates.
Possession means absolutely feck all. Liverpool had more possession than you on the weekend. 16 attempts, only 3 on target. We had 10 attempts, 6 on target. The fecking match day thread? :lol: famously a bastion of rational thought and commonsense. The game was there for the taking and yet you conceded goals on the 35th, 65th and 75th minute, with only one spawny goal in response. Yep, it was within touching distance.
 

TheReligion

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Yes you read that right. Go and read the match thread and see what your fellow supporters thought at the time. Let's not re-write history. We scored a perfectly good goal, ruled out by the softest of VAR decisions, we score that and then the 10 men behind the ball and break tactics don't work.

61% possession and 16 attempts. Utd were just ruthless in the right moments, which I have credited you for, but that game was there for the taking. Let's see how you do at the Emirates.
Jesus wept (not your number 9 who couldn’t score by the way) :lol:

Game for the taking but De Gea didn’t have a save to make…
 

BurgerVan

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Dec 28, 2021
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Arsenal
It's really hard to take any post seriously when youngun's chuck in the childish little green emoji things as they think it somehow helps their point. This is a great forum, shame that emoji is available.

If you truly think Utd were good in that game, your standards are through the floor. One poor VAR decision away from a very different game too (unsuprising given the officials), but hey never mind. Onwards and upwards.

Utd were very good in moments during that game, and I respect that. I have no problem with the counter attacking tactics, Utd are an extremely dangerous team. When I read Utd dominated the game, or won the match 'easily' I just chuckle.

The facts are, despite that defeat, Arsenal have picked up 27 more points than Utd if you look at the past 38 games, not too bad considering our front 4 combined cost £3m less than Antony, our team is rubbish and the manager is Peps cone boy. Peace.