Great post
As Rugby refuses to take the knee, is it time the Premier League stopped too?
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I read this a lot, but I don't see how they would do this. There's no objective line to draw between ignorant, banter, offensive, hateful, etc.
I agree outright illegal stuff (like calling for someone's house to be vandalized or comparing a black person to a monkey) should be immediately blocked, but there's so much different gradations of abuse it's just impossible (and probably unwise) to try and delete it all.
There's a ton of idiots out there and as long as they can hide behind a computer, they'll find ways to upset others (which is what brings them joy).
The reason it keeps happening - well actually, it's massively increased in intensity in recent weeks - is because it's being highlighted constantly by the media. They 100% know what they're doing, as social contagion is accepted in every other form of reporting. It's why we have reporting restrictions on things like suicide and terrorism.
We have scientific data that shows that, when starved of attention and social reward trolls will stop.
The way we're currently dealing with these issues - the constant reporting on them - will only lead to more incidences...and I firmly believe that journalists understand that . I work in Sports PR and even we have extensive training on social contagion, and how important it is to be be aware of it, never mind actual journalists.
Another note: last week there was an outcry over De Gea getting similar abuse based on race, but media outlets not reporting it while at the same time writing a huge number of stories about Axel. This week it's happened again. Plenty of race based abuse towards Lindelof...while they report solely on Martial. It just seems intentionally divisive. On both counts - first of all reporting it, secondly selectively reporting it.
Spoiler: Troll posts based on race with sexual assault references
Goes back again to media culpability for a lot of societies current ills.
Agreed.
Much faster response times to abuse reports is a must. They're multi-billion dollar companies...they can afford the manpower.
Harsher punishments for offenders. IP Address bans, MAC address blocks. I'm aware both can be bypassed - but at least make them jump through some hoops if they want to open new accounts after a ban.
More extensive self-moderation tools are important. Things like being able to choose to block certain words from appearing in your replies, block replies from accounts younger than 'x' amount of days (a lot of abuse comes from brand new accounts). I'm sure there's more...those are just two off the top of my head.
And of course if the abuse is of a threatening, racist or otherwise criminal nature - then you obviously have the option to report that to the authorities....although a massive percentage of the abuse directed at British based footballers seems to be coming from other countries.
Ultimately, there's a lot of research that shows that the absolute worst way to reduce abusive comments are to actively engage with them or promote them. The Block button might still be the best tool we have available.
@Martial'sEmergingSmile great post you made about the divide in the world
Modern society has been divided along identity (i.e. "racial", ethnic, religious, gender...) lines since its earliest days. This has never ceased, despite all recent liberalizations. So it's not true that society is "more divided than at any time period in recent history", as you put it. It's just that the decrease in marginalization of women and minorities has made fault lines visible that were always there, but half-hidden under an overwhelming hegemony of tradition. Which provided the illusion of a unified, homogenous society, at the expense of those on its sidelines.
Like most rejections of identity politics I encounter, your both-siding misses the power differences at the basis of contemporary identities. One can be fundamentally critical of identity logic itself (which I am), but as things stand, there are essential differences between majority identity politics and minority identity politics. Lumping them all together to put the blame on everyone just makes real-life discrimination (and worse) invisible.
The recent spike in racism is part of a severe backlash from segments of the majority against the elevation of minorities to halfway equal citizens. An attempt to roll back the last 5-6 decades, or even more. These blocs want to preserve and reestablish the privileged status they inherited, and which they see as their birthright. So not at all different from earlier racism, or other forms of discrimination, just operating under somewhat different conditions.
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You’re absolutely right. White people are the victims in all of this. Truly the most victimized and persecuted race in the world. Thanks for enlightening us.
I've always found it funny how any movement that is for the rights of people of colour turns into some kind of "anti-white" movement, as if people of colour have been the ones who've colonized, enslaved, terrorized and oppressed other races for centuries.
Funny how that works.
Regarding the bolded part, possibly the dumbest take today so well done.
I suggest you actually do some reading outside of Reddit, 4Chan and YT.
If police wanted to catch drugs on people, just stop every other recruitment consultant and banker en route to their offices in London.
"But I didn't enslave or colonise anyone so it's not my problem"
You know this is bullshit...right?
Great post. When your in the majority its easy to ponticate how marginalised goups should fight for their rights as not make the majority feel uncomfortable.
The majority group Identity politics is coded as concerns, it’s everyone else who is playing identity politics
Excellent post..
So footballers take the knee before every game and yet still the disgusting racist abuse towards them continues after they have a bad game. Meanwhile rugby doesn’t take the knee and hardly any racism exists amongst rugby fans. Taking the knee is not working!
The fact that somebody took the time to write such an ill-informed thread demonstrates just how far we still have to go in educating people about and subsequently eradicating racism.
Anybody that utters the phrase “all lives matter” immediately shows themselves to be thoroughly ignorant at best and downright complicit at worst.
Anybody that utters the phrase “all lives matter” immediately shows themselves to be thoroughly ignorant at best and downright complicit at worst.
How about everyone can choose to be “verified” on social media- i.e. you have to provide proof of identity and have to post under your own name in order to be verified- then make it that people can choose whether or not they allow unverified/anonymous accounts to view their posts/interact with them?
I fear he doesn't.
He sadly seems to be an example of someone who is prone to be a victim of disinformation because you have to pretty ignorant to believe these numbers in the first place.
Oh the naivety.
I'm sure that there are racists, homophobes and misogynist among rugby fans but as someone that regularly goes to games, the atmosphere is completely different, there are things that are casually said in football stadiums that you will seldomly hear in rugby stadiums.
It’s symbolic gesture that doesn’t really help. Similar, many teams have LGBT campaigns with their players, but it cant be taken seriously. Will some players stand up and fight when it matters, given its banned in own country?
For reference.
The historical component matters a great deal, as does their status in society. When you're part of a majority that haven't suffered oppression, race based insults directed at you don't really have the same weight behind them. They're still shitty, mind, but it's basically night and day.The reason it keeps happening - well actually, it's massively increased in intensity in recent weeks - is because it's being highlighted constantly by the media. They 100% know what they're doing, as social contagion is accepted in every other form of reporting. It's why we have reporting restrictions on things like suicide and terrorism.
We have scientific data that shows that, when starved of attention and social reward trolls will stop.
The way we're currently dealing with these issues - the constant reporting on them - will only lead to more incidences...and I firmly believe that journalists understand that . I work in Sports PR and even we have extensive training on social contagion, and how important it is to be be aware of it, never mind actual journalists.
Another note: last week there was an outcry over De Gea getting similar abuse based on race, but media outlets not reporting it while at the same time writing a huge number of stories about Axel. This week it's happened again. Plenty of race based abuse towards Lindelof...while they report solely on Martial. It just seems intentionally divisive. On both counts - first of all reporting it, secondly selectively reporting it.
Spoiler: Troll posts based on race with sexual assault references
Goes back again to media culpability for a lot of societies current ills.
1) Taking a knee has become symbolic due to George Floyd's death, in protest against police brutality, it's just coincidence Colin Kaepernick took the knee first during the national anthem, it has no bearing on why sportsmen take the knee now 2) Sky Sports News still have BLM in ads 3) I never compared the nazi salute to taking the knee, i compared it to the raised 'black power' fist.
I don't want to talk too much about this because if a white person doesn't agree with 'taking the knee' or BLM, this person is somehow are deemed to be 'racist' even though white people (apparently) are encouraged to have these conversations, as both white and black have avoided talking about it this touchy subject for so long, but truth is white people don't have much choice on BLM/taking the knee or opinion on the best route for change, at the middle of the whole BLM movement, white people in the public eye either had to go with it or it was potentially career threatening for the them, can you imagine the uproar if the white than white England captain Harry Kane refused to take the knee when it first started or Manchester United captain Harry Maguire?
End of the day BLM is not the group to get behind to support racial equality because how do BLM support Asians (for example)? Getting behind BLM and taking a knee as lost its meaning and carrying on doing it at sporting events just reminds people of the whole riots in the summer along with tearing down statues. So if the aim is to get through to racist white people to change their views (which it is), the whole slogan of 'black lives matter' and taking a knee is the wrong message and the wrong way to go about it.
The truth is though if anyone's racist 18+ chances are they will always be racist, it will be in the make-up and not change no matter how much people take a knee in protest or got their eye on tearing down the next statue (which makes things even worse and causes even more divide).
Racism will never fully be eradicated, because all countries don’t have the same feelings on this and people will always abuse and look down upon someone who is slightly different to them (hair colour/attractiveness/weight/skin colour/sexuality etc) but the key to have an even more equal society is educating the children of tomorrow.
If I could post links I would, but this is a quote of a headline in The Guardian posted the 10th of October 2020.
''Black people are hurting': British rugby league's inclusivity crisis''
and a little quote of the article it self.
'' Perhaps most worrying, there is a bigger issue to get to grips with. “People don’t think racism exists in the sport – but if you make one comment about Black Lives Matter, you’ll see the ignorance,” Robinson says. “I hear the term ‘rugby league family’ all the time. Well, people in this family, black people, are hurting. Let’s explore why that is.”
So ya, I guess rugby has racism and you just burry your head in the sand
Fully agree with the need for mandatory identity verification on social media. They do this for online games in South Korea and it seems to work well from what I can tell.
How do you know this? Why would it not be the other way around? I know my identity has massively shifted over the years from numerous bad experiences and the constant "Where are you really from?" questions.
The only time that question truly offended me was when a police officer asked me that after checking my ID and seeing my place of birth did not match my skin tone. Has happened two out of three random ID checks.
I don't understand, I'm from one of those non-muslim ethnic groups in the Middle East. I get discriminated for not being a muslim over there and for looking like one over here. What's your point?
Cleopatra was from a Greek dynasty and Ceasar was a Roman dude. I think you're applying modern conceptions of white/brown here.
Most of this is really in your mind. The fist-in-the-air salute is not nearly as common as taking a knee, and it is still enormously inappropriate to compare it to the nazi salute; the Black Panthers were never planning on genocide and were fighting oppression. The comparison is absolutely awful.
And as I said, the EPL recognized that the BLM connection led to unwanted discussion, so they severed it, already back in September. If people talking about it now, it's about the message, not the organization. The message far preceded that organization, and most people are unaware of that organization and what it stands for exactly. It's mostly detractors that know this and hammer on it. In any case, so if we are talking about the relevance of taking a knee in the EPL now, the BLM organization is not longer relevant.
Finally, Kaepernick's action took off into the stratosphere after the George Floyd murder, and that makes perfect sense, as this was the 'perfect' example of the police brutality against Black people that he had been protesting about. I have not idea why you call it a coincidence cause it isn't. Kaepernick was taking a knee during the US anthem to raise awareness of police brutality against Black people and point out that the US as a country should be criticized for it. He got a LOT of attention for that back then. Then George Floyd was murdered by the police, and so people turned to Kaepernick's gesture even more, also internationally, because its relevance was underscored given that racism and police brutality are not restricted to the US. The only thing I see that you could point out is that taking a knee works less well in other contexts, for example because the anthem isn't played before EPL matches and so the protest is isolated a little (as @harms pointed out).
I don’t think it’s inappropriate at all, I still stick to my point that white people doing a black power fist is like jews doing a nazi salute as some of the whole aims for the black power movement (groups who adopted this gesture) was black pride, black superiority and black nationalism and advocating separatism from the whites and the formation of self-governing black communities i.e. a world of 'division' (not equality) or a world in which black is above white (similar vision to nazi's) and violence was used by these groups in efforts to achieve these goals.
This raised fist being used right now as a symbol for ‘equality’ (ie:- Lewis Hamilton and BLM):-
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7314...at&fit=max&s=cb64fbebefede7a93bc793341d330902
www.facebook.com/FOXBaltimore/videos/maine-girl-goes-viral-after-kneeling-during-protest/285760125810752/
Is the wrong message, you can’t change what this symbolic gesture meant for other political movements throughout history all of a sudden in the same way you can’t what change what the nazi salute means or other far right salutes.
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It really isn't. Just think of the historic power imbalances- I don't remember black people industrialising the murder of white people.
The raised fist is just a couple of individual players making that decision for themselves anyway, it's not uniformly part of the PL's campaign.
Absolutely correct, and I agree with you that BLM should do more for Asian rights. In fact, they should focus purely on Asian rights this week and then Latino rights next month, maybe get around to Native Hawaiian rights before the end of Spring? And they absolutely need to start focusing on ginger haired folks rights and set up a March for Stray Cats in London before the end of the year.
Either way they'll need to stop with the whole protesting thing. Maybe they can quietly ask for equality and sit in the corner until they get a response? That might finally start working. But the knee stuff and fists in the air (not seen much of that but I'll take your word that it's widespread, you seem like a guy who's got his finger on the pulse) needs to stop right away because it totally reminds me of a fascist salute. Much like the BLM movement - I mean, imagining starting a movement to try and raise awareness that black lives actually matter!
We don't need that kind of talk around my area. I wish everyone would just keep quiet and let me live in my bubble filled with milky cups of tea, Antiques Roadshow and a cheeky Sunday morning tug to the lingerie pages in the Debenhams monthly catalogue.
Cheers. You have a point. But the larger point holds I hope.
this is just a forum for predominately man utd fans, so its not the real world, but looking at the amount of casual racism, some of it unintended, but quite a few comments that are pretty effin blatant, is it surprising the wider world is so messed up.
whether its comparing black power salutes from 60s/70s segregated america to nazi salutes (making them analagous!) or the notion that there is no racism at all in modern day Britain, to 'all lives matter' , to MSM not reporting the thousands of christians being beheaded (and thus reporting on BLM instead is racist), its all here and i seriously dont know whether to laugh or cry. or switch off.
can i just state btw that the comment : "I still stick to my point that white people doing a black power fist is like jews doing a nazi salut " is outrageous. and shows how lacking in any sense of ability to reason intellectually the 'all lives matter' folks are. i blame the likes of shapiro / petterson and their pseudo intellectual white supremacist click bait garbage.
whether its comparing black power salutes from 60s/70s segregated america to nazi salutes (making them analagous!) or the notion that there is no racism at all in modern day Britain, to 'all lives matter' , to MSM not reporting the thousands of christians being beheaded (and thus reporting on BLM instead is racist), its all here and i seriously dont know whether to laugh or cry. or switch off.
can i just state btw that the comment : "I still stick to my point that white people doing a black power fist is like jews doing a nazi salut " is outrageous. and shows how lacking in any sense of ability to reason intellectually the 'all lives matter' folks are. i blame the likes of shapiro / petterson and their pseudo intellectual white supremacist click bait garbage.
next catalogue mate, far classier.
Yeah, I did not want to detract from your larger point by quoting the whole thing.
awfully specificI wouldn't quite lump Shapiro in with Peterson.
Shapiro isn't hiding behind anything, his audience is entirely far right. He's their version of a socialist intellectual because he talks fast. He's unconvincing to a neutral audience. No one is getting lured in by his Star Wars video reviews with hip camera angles, unlike
Peterson, who's more tricky, because he has this whole self-help "stop procrastinating, clean your room" shtick that's attractive to young men looking for a father figure.
I'm glad Sam "torture is okay, because what if the detainee had knowledge of a primed nuclear bomb" Harris has faded into obscurity enough for you not to mention him.
What they're doing is not new. The classic "other minorities have interest groups, so whites need one too" line of reasoning is analogues to most of the casual racism you highlighted in your post and predates "the intellectual dark web".
Just found this thread and wow! I'm black West African but modern Western Politics is absolutely hilarious it's borderline ridiculous. I understand there has been some absolutely horrible things done to a lot of races in the past,not just my black brothers and sisters in the Diaspora, but come on white people you don't have to sh*t on your own race just to make yourself feel morally Superior to your peers and ancestors. They were people of their time and they did what they had to do then. I don't blame it all on the “white, Christian male”...the African Kings and Queens my brothers and sisters love to praise so much weren't angels either. They raided, killed and enslaved their own to sell to the white man for mirrors, jewels and more guns to go raid. Human beings are just fecked up greedy that way.
The last part of your post is sadly the best parts of the solution people are no longer brave enough to say out loud. If you're going to be offended by words of an anonymous nobody somewhere in Africa(I've seen those) or Asia, so much so that it affects your ability to do your job, then it's probably in your best interest to not share that space. You can't be hurt by what you can't see. The social justice activists will interpret it as maybe surrendering the battlefield to these despicable people, but I personally believe more in self preservation above all else.
It's probably even too late for that now, everybody is sharing in the ‘right to be offended’ now.
Or maybe we can close down all these social media outlets. I certainly wouldn't mind, they've become unhealthy powerful.
That’s Rugby League aka British Bulldogs - I'd assumed that this thread was about proper rugby.
But it was a large part of the BLM campaign, which the Premier League backed and Sky still back, this statue:-
https://www.dw.com/image/54182108_101.jpg
Got removed after it got errected without permission in place of a statue BLM tore down.
White people doing a black power fist and white BLM protestors harassing white people at restaurants demanding they raise a black power fist (videos still all over social media) was 2020 in a nutshell, nuts!
Sorry that I dont know rugby inside and out. Its a boring sport. My point still stands though. Racism isn't exclusive to football
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