Average Positions

[VeevaVee]

Disclaimer: Obviously they can illustrate something (maybe) to a degree, but of course, any stats don't paint a full picture.
Nonetheless, I find these interesting so others might too.

Ours vs Brighton

For some comparison, I'll share who most consider our main rivals

Liverpool
You can see how they play here imo

City

The rest - remove the space. For some reason I can't post an imgur link without getting some kind of broken gallery
https://imgur. com/gallery/ZetVoNn

 

[Jeppers7]

And we were losing for 70 minutes

 

[Schmiznurf]

I saw another one that showed Mata was mostly in the CM position rather than the right.

 

[AR87]

I don't care about us looking more defensive in our average position. I expect that for a Mourinho team.

It's that you can see how poor our spacing was. There's a massive gap from where Martial is to Lukaku with none of the CMs even close to him. Then our 3 CMs are literally on top of each other in midfield, which explains why we were unable to break Brighton's press without resorting to hoofball.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

I have not seen these Diagrams but look at where Martial is and then look at where fellaini was bough on to play. Absolutely crazy that we continue not to play two strikers together even when the score is down.

 

[bond19821982]

So basically only Lukaku in the box

 

[Joseunited]

Only 3 players in the opposition half,doesn't take a genius to figure out where we need to improve.No penetration, no pressure = no fecking chance.

 

[stepic]

midfield not working. there are two out of three new players in there, though. maybe they just need more time.

 

[Raw]

City's one is interesting. 3 pairs of players together: D. Silva + B. Silva, Gundogan + Jesus and Fernandinho + Kompany. Could they be making 1-2 passes with each other?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I don't care about us looking more defensive in our average position. I expect that for a Mourinho team.

It's that you can see how poor our spacing was. There's a massive gap from where Martial is to Lukaku with none of the CMs even close to him. Then our 3 CMs are literally on top of each other in midfield, which explains why we were unable to break Brighton's press without resorting to hoofball.

That's my issue (or an example of a bigger issue).... not playing people in their right position and/or in the right tactics.

Lukaku isn't a forward who can regularly take the ball and create chances by himself.... he either needs space to run (which needs support close and clever though balls) or he's a finisher (crosses).

But we (and by we, I mean Jose as he must be dictating the positions/tactics) continue to isolate him so he doesn't get much ball and a lot of what he gets is back to goal with a CH close. We also don't have enough pace or width so (1) opposition defence isn't stretched and (2) we don't get crosses in.

We've paid a fortune for a player and seem to be going out of our way to misuse him. I'm not saying we need to go gung ho, but just a little more speed of pass/attack would make a huge difference.... stretch the opposition and give Lukaku more space with opposition defenders turning and not being able to set themselves.

442, 532, 433, I don't really care but we've got to attack quicker, we've got to have width and we've got to be brave enough to make passes and recognise that not all of them will work...

Instead we have narrow (in opposition half), slow, cautious build-up which allows opposition to get organized and in place and we end up against packed formations. That's ok if you're City with the players who can work in tight space/thread a through ball through (De Bruyne, Silva, etc) but that's not us.

We're so scared of possibly losing that we're wary of doing enough to win. Champions win lots of games.... draws won't do.

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't care about us looking more defensive in our average position. I expect that for a Mourinho team.

It's that you can see how poor our spacing was. There's a massive gap from where Martial is to Lukaku with none of the CMs even close to him. Then our 3 CMs are literally on top of each other in midfield, which explains why we were unable to break Brighton's press without resorting to hoofball.

When your team is losing, you expect to be way more attacking and push teams back

 

[scoi]

Ignore the often misquoted cliche about stats, the midfield 3 are a big concern, there is no link to the attacking 3 so long hopeful balls is all we can hope for, hence the Fellini plan B.

Juve in the late nineties used to have Davids +1 always camped in the centre circle to always have a target to clear to and launch attacks from, but wasting 3 players there is strangling any go forward momentum.

That is unless the average position of the 3 is central because they spent all game running all over the pitch (I doubt the stats would back this up) or swapping positions with each other (would be a bonkers/genius
tactic, which I don't think Jose is either).

 

[VeevaVee]

City's one is interesting. 3 pairs of players together: D. Silva + B. Silva, Gundogan + Jesus and Fernandinho + Kompany. Could they be making 1-2 passes with each other?

I noticed that too and wondered how intentional it is, either directly or or indirectly. Always someone close to ping it off, or someone to help close down immediately?

That's my issue (or an example of a bigger issue).... not playing people in their right position and/or in the right tactics.

Lukaku isn't a forward who can regularly take the ball and create chances by himself.... he either needs space to run (which needs support close and clever though balls) or he's a finisher (crosses).

But we (and by we, I mean Jose as he must be dictating the positions/tactics) continue to isolate him so he doesn't get much ball and a lot of what he gets is back to goal with a CH close. We also don't have enough pace or width so (1) opposition defence isn't stretched and (2) we don't get crosses in.

We've paid a fortune for a player and seem to be going out of our way to misuse him. I'm not saying we need to go gung ho, but just a little more speed of pass/attack would make a huge difference.... stretch the opposition and give Lukaku more space with opposition defenders turning and not being able to set themselves.

442, 532, 433, I don't really care but we've got to attack quicker, we've got to have width and we've got to be brave enough to make passes and recognise that not all of them will work...

Instead we have narrow (in opposition half), slow, cautious build-up which allows opposition to get organized and in place and we end up against packed formations. That's ok if you're City with the players who can work in tight space/thread a through ball through (De Bruyne, Silva, etc) but that's not us.

We're so scared of possibly losing that we're wary of doing enough to win. Champions win lots of games.... draws won't do.

Yeah. I question Lukaku's ability at times, but involve him more like Belgium do and he'll deliver something.

 

[AR87]

When your team is losing, you expect to be way more attacking and push teams back

I understand that. Which is why the CMs positioning to me is more concerning then necessarily the number of players we have in the opposition half.

Brighton were trying to force us to play through the middle and then press from there. We quite literally made it as easy as possible for them to do that which means we couldn't advance the ball forward and commit numbers.

That's why we had the ball more in their half when Fellaini came on as we were able to bypass the press by playing more direct. It highlights to me why Fellaini is a good plan B but our plan A currently sucks and almost seems like we don't have a plan.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Yeah. I question Lukaku's ability at times, but involve him more like Belgium do and he'll deliver something.

I think Jose is trying to play him in a similar way to Drogba (or Costa). The problem is that needs the player to have a decent first touch, physicality to hold off a CH and be able to run with the ball and either create a half chance or hold it until teammates arrive.

Lukaku has the first touch of an elephant, surprisingly seems quite weak (considering built like a brick outhouse) and chooses wrong options. He'll score 15/20 league goals but we should help him get more and he should be helping teammates.... down to tactics.

 

[paulscholes18]

Only 3 players averaging in the opponents half is diabolical especially in a game you’re 2-0 down early on, compared to City only have 1 player in their own half and Liverpool 2, it is something that needs to be addressed if this season isn’t going to be a total write-off

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Lukaku playing slightly off the right of center can be seen even though he is clearly forced to play as a target man for Jose Mourinho.

Then there is martial who is the furthest player forward who is not Lukaku (clearly a forward who would do wonders in the left of Lukaku's position) - whilst also continuing to be a guy who the most isolated from the rest of the team.

Whilst Jose FC fans will say it's because the guy is lazy - I say no, it's because he is consistently asked by Jose to keep the widest distance of all attackers to receive the ball on the counter.

That in it self causes a problem because martial is a striker with a good first touch made to play as a winger whilst prefers to receive the ball to feet & made to supply a target man. The target man is actually has a horrendous first touch yet is made to receive the ball directly from the sky.

Jose is just a human being - but for his own manegerial future he needs to give up on the 4231/433 formation he sticks with & embrace 352.

If Sanchez can't pick up something linear to some title winning form in 2 or 3 games time then in my opinion he has lost a bit of acceleration & also needs to play as a forward or AM.

Aloysius's 352!

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

Only 3 players averaging in the opponents half is diabolical especially in a game you’re 2-0 down early on, compared to City only have 1 player in their own half and Liverpool 2, it is something that needs to be addressed if this season isn’t going to be a total write-off

That'll never be adressed with Mourinho as manager. We were getting dominated at Old Trafford by Leicester for crying out loud..

 

[el3mel]

That's diabolical positioning. The 3 midfielders are centered in the center while leaving loads of space between players. Not a surprise we looked crap going forward with such distance between the players.

Mourinho management of this game was simply at its worst.

 

[whatwha]

That's diabolical positioning. The 3 midfielders are centered in the center while leaving loads of space between players. Not a surprise we looked crap going forward with such distance between the players.

Mourinho management of this game was simply at its worst.

Worse than Sevilla?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's not unexpected to see that but it does drive home the part our tactics play in our poor record going forward. Just like LVG had the handbreaks on the team through cautious possession and positional rigidity, Mourinho blunts us through his defensive mindset and inability to get the team playing cohesively (a common theme post SAF).

 

[Rory 7]

Back four isn’t strong enough for us to dominate the play. The manager recognised that, asked the board to sign a top class centre half, they didn’t. That’s why you end up with a united team conceding the press against Brighton. This will continue this season. Depressing.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Back four isn’t strong enough for us to dominate the play. The manager recognised that, asked the board to sign a top class centre half, they didn’t. That’s why you end up with a united team conceding the press against Brighton. This will continue this season. Depressing.

So the back 4 isn't strong enough to dominate play vs the mighty Brighton?

Seriously?

We were playing Brighton. Not Pep's Barcelona.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I actually laughed at our midfield's average position.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I actually laughed at our midfield's average position.

Three CMs hugging and everyone else spread out. It doesn't even make any sense. Surely even counter attacking teams who focus on crossing push more players up and into the box.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So the back 4 isn't strong enough to dominate play vs the mighty Brighton?

Seriously?

We were playing Brighton. Not Pep's Barcelona.

If you dominate play your back 4 will come under less stress.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

If you dominate play your back 4 will come under less stress.

The excuses people make for Mourinho are insane. Apparently our back 4 isn't good enough to withstand the mighty Brighton and thus we had to play a more reserved game(which worked out well for us now didn't it).

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Three CMs hugging and everyone else spread out. It doesn't even make any sense. Surely even counter attacking teams who focus on crossing push more players up and into the box.

Did we atleast get some pretty passing triangles out of it?

 

[Snow]

That'll never be adressed with Mourinho as manager. We were getting dominated at Old Trafford by Leicester for crying out loud..

Don't go overboard. Leicester were hardly threatening throughout the match and they scored late after a mistake from Bailly when we were 2-0 up.

There's clear difference between United and Liverpool in terms of match fitness. Most of their first team players had a pre-season whilst many of ours were getting their first minutes against Brighton and Leicester. Klopp played the same first 11 in both games, Pep made 4 changes to his team that beat Arsenal because some of his players can't play 90 minutes properly yet like ours.

 

[Varun]

The one that immediately stands out is the distance between players. No wonder the guys on the ball struggle

 

[wolvored]

I saw another one that showed Mata was mostly in the CM position rather than the right.

Yes no width at all as Young couldnt keep bombing back and forth

 

[WR10]

So basically anotheir post that drills home the point that we have no functioning fullbacks. Liverpool and city have no true out and out wingers and they just use full backs for that job. Puts it into perspective for all the people begging for a right winger

 

[wolvored]

midfield not working. there are two out of three new players in there, though. maybe they just need more time.

Periera will be dropped when Matic back and think Fred/Pogba will be subbed on a regular basis for Fellaini/McTominay.

 

[VeevaVee]

So basically anotheir post that drills home the point that we have no functioning fullbacks. Liverpool and city have no true out and out wingers and they just use full backs for that job. Puts it into perspective for all the people begging for a right winger

To be fair, we still need a right sided forward a la Salah. I think that's what most people mean when they say right winger.

But yes, we need to get more from our wingbacks.

 

[11101]

Seems like we need to sort out who is on which side of midfield. Otherwise, considering these are average positions, its not actually too bad. Much better than the Leicester game where we had no right side. We just need to move the whole lot 10 yards up the pitch and put someone up front.

 

[Rory 7]

So the back 4 isn't strong enough to dominate play vs the mighty Brighton?

Seriously?

We were playing Brighton. Not Pep's Barcelona.

The back four isn’t strong enough

 

[Noo Noo]

The BBC report says you had 67% possession against Brighton and yet you have 8 players in your own half for the majority of the game. Hmmm

 

[FootyGirl88]

Has anyone else seen this?

 

[Himannv]

That cluster of CMs is strange to me. They'd normally be the best passers on the pitch so if those three spread out more it might open up more angles to attack from. The wide players have defensive responsibilities that they ideally shouldn't need to have with a three man midfield behind them and this graphic seems to highlight the problem here, i.e., that midfield is simply not spread out enough. It's as though their primary job is to make sure nothing squeezes through them in the centre of the pitch, but it's a tactic that is severely restricting us in an attacking sense.

Also, Lindelof seems to be too far to the left. I understand being wider to receive a pass, but he was too wide for the penalty that we conceded and probably the whole thing could have been avoided if he had been more central at the time.

I'd be interested to see the graphic for the Leicester game to see if there are some similarities there.

 

[Frosty]

Has anyone else seen this?

Will be interesting to see them after Spurs and Burnley. Not as damning as the van Gaal stats after his second season (yet anyway).