Balkan Discussion

[Amar__]

Biggest problem is Serbian racism that is still well alive. Their prime minister talked about Great Serbia just few weeks ago publicly like it's a normal thing.

Serbs are well in the 1990s again, and no one from Europe reacts to that.

Nationalists are supported by EU countries such as Croatia, Hungary(Orban), part of France, plus their former allies Russia and China.

USA and Germany are our only hope.

 

[UweBein]

The biggest problem is that they see themselves as victims, after starting three wars where they can be seen as the or one of the main culprits.

I mean I get that. You got people (Serbs) who were born in Kosovo and can not return nor visit there now. I get that it is frustrating from a personal, cultural and political point of view. But, the Serbs have never fully accepted the blame for what they did in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. I think it would have been a great opportunity for them to bring the whole country forward (because at the endof the day only a few really profit from this nationalistic nonsense. Most Serbs act as trained dogs, with a Pavlov-like reflex when Serbia and Serbia's glory is apparently at stake.) Had they done that, they would have grown into a model and perhaps into a regional leader for the whole region, because yes, there is also nationalism in other Balkan countries as well.

But, you can not do that by basically following the nationalistic manifesto.

 

[adexkola]

Can someone recommend some good books/documentaries to read on this topic? Going all the way back to Tito's death possibly and the following Balkanization.

 

[UweBein]

Can someone recommend some good books/documentaries to read on this topic? Going all the way back to Tito's death possibly and the following Balkanization.

Death of Yugoslavia by BBC (a documentary) is decent.

But, you would need to get a whole lot of books - I guess. The history is quite complicated, the prolog to the creation of Yugoslavia is also quite complex (you can go back to the days of the Austro-Hunagrian and the Ottoman empire), and there are many regional specifics that are often not mentioned or not fully elaborated.

In fairness, it is also something that other Balkan countries like Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania had to go through as well. But with time, they have got one ethnic group which was much larger than all the others.

 

[Dan_F]

Can someone recommend some good books/documentaries to read on this topic? Going all the way back to Tito's death possibly and the following Balkanization.

There’s a podcast called The history of Yugoslavia which starts back a lot further than what you are probably after, but if you’re interested in the topic then it’s worth a listen. I’m not really sure what happened to it as it seemed to stop at the Second World War with no episodes since last summer.

As the other poster said, The death of Yugoslavia is very good but only really focuses on the events directly leading up to and, of course, the early 90s itself. I’d be interested to know if anyone has recommendations for something to fill that gap from the Second World War to the 80s.

 

[bosnian_red]

Where do your grandparents live?
It seems like there were several occurences like this predominantly held in towns with a Muslim majority like Novi Pazar.

My mom's side is originally from Plav in Montenegro, my dad's mom's side was from Goražde, but most of the direct family moved to Sarajevo long ago. The fear is that you know once it starts, it'll be about how they can rip up Bosnia to take whatever part they believe should be part of "greater Serbia" as part of Serbia. Dodik even speaking openly about how they'll leave and join Serbia. Just like how Srebrenica is now part of Republika Srpska despite being a Bosniak town for ages. And then when everything is going to shit everyone's just going to start taking their bit.

As others have said though. It's the nationalism that gets pushed and starts hate out of nothing. People identified by religion... But feck, even if you want to focus on that, how many are actually religious? Or is it just because they have a name from a certain religion? How many people only become religious once a war breaks out and they're pushed into it? The nationalistic agenda pushes it into a us against them scenario, that they are in fact different when everyone for generations was born and raised in the same little patch of land, just raised with wildly different views

Even as an example, here in Canada. My fiancee had a friend who is a Bosnian Serb from uni. We go to her parents' house for a birthday party she held a few years back, and the only picture in this big room where she held the party was a big picture of Radovan Karadžić, smack in the middle of the wall. Like how fecked up is it that you are idolizing a convicted war criminal? You fled your country thanks to the war that he started, one of the chief instigators behind the genocide and one with a view of exterminating the bosniaks. And there he was, smack center on the wall being idolized by this girls parents. And when confronted she just brushed it off like she didn't really know who he was. Yeah fecking right. Telling me you were raised in a Bosnian Serb household as immigrants from a war and there's 1 singly picture of an old guy on your wall and you don't know who it is. Genocide denial is embedded in those communities. It's like fecking nazis denying they did anything wrong ffs.

 

[Amar__]

go to her parents' house for a birthday party she held a few years back, and the only picture in this big room where she held the party was a big picture of Radovan Karadžić, smack in the middle of the wall.

And I don't even find that surprising anymore. That's worst than having picture of Hitler in your room.

We muslims here have our uneducated parts of country, but Serbs can be worryingly out of date. Anti waxxers, anti corona, anti EU, still following the likes of Russia, China, etc., and still worshipping war criminals and picking nationalist leaders while muslims and Croats(catholic) at least show some modern values. For example muslim Sarajevo elected Bosnian Serb as mayor last year without any fuss and are proud of that choice , while East Sarajevo(Republica Srpska) have their schools named by Ratko Mladic and they have now removed flags of Bosnia and Herzegovina from their schools.

 

[bosnian_red]

And I don't even find that surprising anymore. That's worst than having picture of Hitler in your room.

We muslims here have our uneducated parts of country, but Serbs can be worryingly out of date. Anti waxxers, anti corona, anti EU, still following the likes of Russia, China, etc., and still worshipping war criminals and picking nationalist leaders while muslims and Croats(catholic) at least show some modern values. For example muslim Sarajevo elected Bosnian Serb as mayor last year without any fuss and are proud of that choice , while East Sarajevo(Republica Srpska) have their schools named by Ratko Mladic and they have now removed flags of Bosnia and Herzegovina from their schools.

The analogy I used to explain it to the few people at that party I knew well was essentially as if a Jew walked in a house and saw a picture of Hitler on the wall. fecking disgusting. She was an annoying cnut anyway, so it was easy for my fiancee to drop her as a friend anyway... The laughable part though is the reason she and her family were forced to leave Bosnia was because of the likes of Karadžić, yet they glorify him. It's senseless.

But yes it's so sad. Hate breeds hate and they teach it everywhere, every day. Like how can it be a thing, that literally one of the main people who carried out the largest genocide since the Holocaust, a convicted war criminal of all those atrocities, has his name glorified publically? It's beyond fecked up.

 

[Amar__]

The laughable part though is the reason she and her family were forced to leave Bosnia was because of the likes of Karadžić, yet they glorify him.

That's the thing I can't understand the most. You left your country because your previous leader left it and their people in dire condition, you leave for Canada/or wherever because you can't see your future there, and yet you continue to glorify those ex leaders(who in the process also did some horrible crimes against civilians). How stupid someone needs to be?

 

[Amar__]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...nd-herzegovina-sanctions-regime-11-april-2021

Finally someone other than USA sanctioning pro Russian Bosnian Serbs. Milorad Dodik is basically Putin's pet here, and only one left who is causing havoc in Bosnia regarding peace and racism towards other nationalities(well, except Serbian president). Unfortunately the corruption stays as another big problem, and some Bosniak politicans are sanctioned because of it too, but at least we aren't genocide supporting group.

Sanctions aren't strong, but at least UK shows they care, if anything. Unlike racist EU who discussed sanctions for months and gave up sanctioning anyone simply because they are racist and corrupt cnuts.

EU showed in recent months that they still support anti peace politics here, they actually suggested further racism and separation regarding voting system, some of the things they have suggested to have in new voting system here was ridiculous, they really are worse than us Balkan folks(altough tbf most of it was suggested by Croatian leaders anyway)

 

[Denis79]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...nd-herzegovina-sanctions-regime-11-april-2021

Finally someone other than USA sanctioning pro Russian Bosnian Serbs. Milorad Dodik is basically Putin's pet here, and only one left who is causing havoc in Bosnia regarding peace and racism towards other nationalities(well, except Serbian president). Unfortunately the corruption stays as another big problem, and some Bosniak politicans are sanctioned because of it too, but at least we aren't genocide supporting group.

Sanctions aren't strong, but at least UK shows they care, if anything. Unlike racist EU who discussed sanctions for months and gave up sanctioning anyone simply because they are racist and corrupt cnuts.

EU showed in recent months that they still support anti peace politics here, they actually suggested further racism and separation regarding voting system, some of the things they have suggested to have in new voting system here was ridiculous, they really are worse than us Balkan folks(altough tbf most of it was suggested by Croatian leaders anyway)

Dodik can go feck himself. If he had it his way we would start a new civil war here. Problem is that many follow him and I fear some will do stupid shit because of him. I am so, so tired of our politics.

 

[Denis79]

He did not. Just made parallels with Donbas.

You're right, he didn't directly acknowledge Kosovo as a state but by saying that Donetsk and Lugansk had rights to independence by using Kosovo as an example is almost the same.

Even though he says he didn't set the precedence for the terms of Kosovo's independence, he accepts them as long as they apply for the Donbas regions as well.

 

[Revan]

You're right, he didn't directly acknowledge Kosovo as a state but by saying that Donetsk and Lugansk had rights to independence by using Kosovo as an example is almost the same.

Even though he says he didn't set the precedence for the terms of Kosovo's independence, he accepts them as long as they apply for the Donbas regions as well.

To be fair, he mentioned the International Court of Justice verdict that said that Kosovo's independence was not illegal based on international law and resolution 1244, saying that he has studied it and thinks that the same arguments hold for Donbas and Crimea (I think the situation are very different but anyway). There is nothing to suggest that Russia is planning to recognize Kosovo or not veto any UN security council resolution that recognizes it.

Of course, I am pretty sure that he would be very happy to trade the recognitions if anything like that is offered (which it won't).

 

[Denis79]

To be fair, he mentioned the International Court of Justice verdict that said that Kosovo's independence was not illegal based on international law and resolution 1244, saying that he has studied it and thinks that the same arguments hold for Donbas and Crimea (I think the situation are very different but anyway). There is nothing to suggest that Russia is planning to recognize Kosovo or not veto any UN security council resolution that recognizes it.

Of course, I am pretty sure that he would be very happy to trade the recognitions if anything like that is offered (which it won't).

Wasn't resolution 1244 adopted in 1999 and specifically with Kosovo in mind?

 

[Revan]

Wasn't resolution 1244 adopted in 1999 and specifically with Kosovo in mind?

Yup, it was the resolution that allowed UN-lead mission (UNMIK) to enter Kosovo, and put Kosovo's status in limbo.

International Justice Court was that the declaration of independence of Kosovo was not illegal under 1244.

 

[Denis79]

Yup, it was the resolution that allowed UN-lead mission (UNMIK) to enter Kosovo, and put Kosovo's status in limbo.

International Justice Court was that the declaration of independence of Kosovo was not illegal under 1244.

Sorry but what a clusterfeck!

 

[Revan]

Sorry but what a clusterfeck!

In any case, Putin's arguments are horseshit. In Kosovo there definitely were massive war crimes and an ethnic cleaning (more than half of Albanians were sent out of Kosovo), this did not happen in Crimea, and at best, it is very debatable that something similar happened in Donbas. Then there were several rounds of UN-lead negotiations between Kosovo and Serbia, something that did not happen between Ukraine and Donbas/Crimea. Then there is the International Court Justice's verdict for Kosovo, that did not happen for Donbas/Crimea.

Finally, there was no indication or desire that Kosovo joins another state, while we know that Donbas will join Russia while Crimea was annexed by Russia. So even leaving the other parts I mentioned in the previous paragraph, Kosovo declaring independence is totally different from Russia annexing two regions of a neighbouring country.

I guess Putin might know this.

 

[2cents]

What’s happening in Kosovo? Seeing reports of clashes but others saying it’s misinformation.

 

[VorZakone]

What’s happening in Kosovo? Seeing reports of clashes but others saying it’s misinformation.

Also reputable outlet here where I live reporting it. Apparently no clashes confirmed though but there is tension.

 

[Amar__]

What’s happening in Kosovo? Seeing reports of clashes but others saying it’s misinformation.

No clashes from what I can read, some road and border blockages, but nothing major(yet).

 

[VorZakone]

Yeah, doesn't look serious so far.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Frosty]

This does not sound good.

 

[Frosty]

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[Amar__]

I wanted to write last night that it won't be long before we see "denazification of Kosovo" comments from Serbian nationalistic parties, but thought I might offend someone. Today, high member of SNS(Serbian president's party) said on twitter that "Serbia should start denazification of entire Balkan". Of course, he apologised afterwards, saying he was just joking.

 

[VorZakone]

I wanted to write last night that it won't be long before we see "denazification of Kosovo" comments from Serbian nationalistic parties, but thought I might offend someone. Today, high member of SNS(Serbian president's party) said on twitter that "Serbia should start denazification of entire Balkan". Of course, he apologised afterwards, saying he was just joking.

"Just a prank bro"

 

[Frosty]

My immediate, far too cynical, reaction, is that the Russian state is involved to take NATO's focus off Ukraine.

 

[izec]

My immediate, far too cynical, reaction, is that the Russian state is involved to take NATO's focus off Ukraine.

Same. But it has bern cooking bit by bit over the years with some provocations here and there.

 

[Frosty]

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[2cents]

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[UweBein]

Vucic is not smiling

 

[Revan]

Was expecting a bit more.

The fact that Serbia, as expected, refused to sign the deal means that they won’t implement all parts of it. The deal was not expected to be a final one yet, but as it is, it is far less than the expected ‘take it or leave it’ type of deal and it is extremely ambiguous, which is the opposite of what EU said.

Honestly, it should have been the original deal drafted by France and Germany, sent to both sides and whichever wouldn’t agree should have been sanctioned and completely cut from EU ascension. There have been over a decade of ‘the recent’ negotiations and two decades of negotiations (or 2.5 if you count Rambouillet), and sides are as far from a final deal as 2 decades ago.

Vucic already said that he won’t implement allowing Kosovo to get into UN, which is against the deal. The deal is a joke to make EU look like they didn’t lose 10 years without being able to achieve anything. And I expect that Kurti would try to delay as much as possible creating the Association, although the Americans seem serious about it, so it will likely happen.

 

[Amar__]

Was expecting a bit more.

The fact that Serbia, as expected, refused to sign the deal means that they won’t implement all parts of it. The deal was not expected to be a final one yet, but as it is, it is far less than the expected ‘take it or leave it’ type of deal and it is extremely ambiguous, which is the opposite of what EU said.

Honestly, it should have been the original deal drafted by France and Germany, sent to both sides and whichever wouldn’t agree should have been sanctioned and completely cut from EU ascension. There have been over a decade of ‘the recent’ negotiations and two decades of negotiations (or 2.5 if you count Rambouillet), and sides are as far from a final deal as 2 decades ago.

Vucic already said that he won’t implement allowing Kosovo to get into UN, which is against the deal. The deal is a joke to make EU look like they didn’t lose 10 years without being able to achieve anything. And I expect that Kurti would try to delay as much as possible creating the Association, although the Americans seem serious about it, so it will likely happen.

EU and their representatives for Balkan are one big joke.

I actually agree with idiots like Dodik on one thing, foreigners are here just to mess with us and prolong these hopeless situation that we are all in, they don't care about prosperity and future one bit. Or they are simply stupid to understand the situation, but I don't believe in this.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-extends-647-mln-grant-serbias-fast-railway-line-2023-02-28/

Things like this happen all the time, it's happened in Serbia, it's happening in Bosnia, they talk about peace, and sanctions for people that don't listen and yet they continue to support people who provke these situations that lead to possible incidents. While they talk about sanctions at the same time they give free money which only helps the likes of Vucic to gain more votes.

 

[Amar__]

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Leader of Bosnian Serbs talks shite about muslims all the time, talks about possible war all the time, about possible seccession of Republika Srpska from Bosnia and Herzegovina, and stuff like that, but once he starts talking about LGBT population, then it's time for EU and US to react?

It's funny that the sides who agreed to guarantee peace in our country are also the same sides who don't want us to go forward and keep fighting with each other, and yet they only react about things like these, even though it's probably the only thing this outdated population on balkan agree about

 

[Raoul]

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[R'hllor]

Funny reporting that.

 

[Amar__]

Nothing to see here.

 

[Amar__]

Btw, the latest report in the US senate from US Balkan intelligence about the situation here was laughably bad. They seem to have no idea what is happening here, or they could well be corrupted and talk what our politicians tell them to sell to US.

Also that American guy from the other day mixing Belgrade with some Russian city was funny too, I'd say that just adds to their lack of knowledge.

 

[Revan]

Kurti (Kosovan PM) fecked up again, big time. He might be the biggest moron in this universe. It is incredible how he has not missed a single chance to feck up over and over again, to the point that is making the crooked Serbian president Vucic (and friend of Putin/Russia) look like a totally rational and serious partner

Could easily be studied as a use case of ‘how to not do diplomacy 101’.

I do not see how him and Kosovo get back from this. The only way would be if he does the honorable thing and resigns (I wouldn’t mind if he does a sepukku) but no chance it happens considering that in his insane mind, he is always right and he probably sees himself as a prophet, send by God (despite that he is atheist) to save Albanians. Or something like that. And his party members are too cowards to see the forest from the trees and go for a no confidence vote.

 

[UweBein]

What did Kurti do?