Messi had individually an amazing season in 2019. Scoring all those goals without Xavi and Iniesta and all that.
Ballon d'Or 2021 | Lewandowski robbed again
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Why would Vidic win it for 2009 when we lost a CL to Messi's Barcelona?
On what grounds is he the best footballer? VVD was a stonewall in Liverpool's defence that won the CL and achieved 98 points in the league. Same Liverpool that beat Messi's Barcelona. And Snejder led Netherlands to the WC and was integral to Inter's treble win and kicked Messi's Barcelona out of the CL. What more do you want? Messi has no grounds in winning 2010, even if you can make a slight argument about 2019 because obviously we're judging defenders and attackers to different standards.
I don't think so. For me it should be purely based on performances and not trophies.
It's ultimately pointless to have this argument. There are people who believe Messi is objectively the best football player ever (or at least in modern history). If you believe that, then no amount of "achievements" by other players really matter. It is not about what you do, but about who you are.
He was a better player in 2021 & in 2020.
The rest of your post is what, about Zidane? He was famously inconsistent and I didn't find him to be a RM legend until he had a successful managerial career.
Because Vidic and Messi didn't play 1vs1?
Neither did Van Dijk and Messi.
In those 2 legs that were played, do you think Van Dijk performed better than Messi? Even if he did, that shouldn't outweigh the entirety of a year/season. That said, it was obvious when viewing those 2 legs who the best footballer on the planet was.
Why are we using team achievements to judge how good a player's campaign was? The grounds of Messi winning in 2010 is that he was the player who produced the best performances that year. If Messi wasn't winning it, why is Sneijder more deserving than Xavi or Iniesta? Sneijder tailed off IIRC after Jose left.
Thats the point. You attribute team wins to individuals whereas I focus on the quality of footballers on the pitch. If you accept it being a trophy award then of course Messi will win it for getting Argentina glory (in addition to great LA Liga form as usual) ahead of Lewndowski winning the Bundesliga which Bayern would do with their eyes closed.
Basing it on actual quality of performances, VVD was great in 2019/20 when he essentially hit a slightly lower level than peak Vidic. As good as these defenders are, the likes of them (and Rio/Terry) are simply not as good as Messi and Ronaldo when they turn it on. And Messi turned it on in 19/29. I just find it amusing how liverpools defence gets smashed but he'd worth whereas Vidic lost a final hence he isn't. Your team mates helping you seems to be the deciding factor. Either way Messi was better than either. But it depends on whether you focus on trophies or football.
Because VVD was integral to winning the CL? You saw what happened to Liverpool's defence when he was injured. Obviously when it comes to these awards - it's all bullshit. How can you say Messi or Ronaldo had a better season than De Gea under Jose and LVG? Or defenders, midfielders, everyone has different role but it seems only goals count when it comes to these awards.
Because if a player is integral to a "team achievement", then it is a big boon for his resume. And because it is a criteria used by the journalists to rate these players. Do you think Messi would have won this year if he didn't win the Copa? Once he did that, he might have had the shittiest season ever, he'd still have won it. What did Xavi and Iniesta win in 2010? And it doesn't really matter if Snejder left after Jose, that's not an argument.
What do you mean with "not in general"? Current form?
What did he do better, precisely?
Again, no tongue in cheek, I'm genuinely interested
The league and the world cup?
Messi was always going to get it for finally winning something with Argentina and he was very good in the Copa in fairness.
Don't actually have a problem with him winning it this time whereas there's been other years he's been given the trophy even if he's been far from best performing player.
Don't actually have a problem with him winning it this time whereas there's been other years he's been given the trophy even if he's been far from best performing player.
Why not take the human (biased) element out of it and just go by pure statistics? Surely it will be a fairer award that way.
Much cooler actually watching them play.
Bundesliga player robbed. Oh well.
This should be a lesson for every player dreaming about the ballondor. Either play for the two Spanish teams or in the premier league.
This should be a lesson for every player dreaming about the ballondor. Either play for the two Spanish teams or in the premier league.
Consistently won games & produced more than Messi did on every stage possible. I’d say that if we were judging by the 20/21 season there could’ve been a good argument for Messi as the margin in productivity could be easily explained by the level of their respective teams and the difference in their roles. But Messi’s form in 21/22 had been nothing short of atrocious (by his standards, which is still very, very good for any other footballer), by far the worst of his entire career.
Lewandowski obviously can’t dribble like him or pass like him and he can’t be compared to him in terms of his general ability but he has been a better player for the past 2 years.
Messi fanboys and their nonsense about 2018 again.
2018 was a WORLD CUP YEAR in which Messi was terrible and only scored one goal in 4 games.
Look up the past results for France Football's ballon d'or in World Cup years, you're not winning it without a top 4 if not top 2 finish.
Also Messi 2018 wasn't even better than Salah and Ronaldo on an individual level. The difference in their CL campaigns was massive.
Bollocks D'oh!
You can be the best player at a tournament without winning it.
But at least the competition with Real Madrid was rife in those years with teams like Athletico winning the title once in a while unlike the Bundesliga. I think it’s a fair argument that Lewa’s Bundesliga win with Bayern ranks lower than winning the Copa America. It’s not unfair that they gave it to Messi no matter how we spin it IMO.
180 journalists from around the world, each representing a different country, are asked to choose five footballers from a 30-player shortlist.
Do these include the likes of Miguel Delaney, pilib de brun or Ballbag? if so then the voting system is fecked.
Do these include the likes of Miguel Delaney, pilib de brun or Ballbag? if so then the voting system is fecked.
Yeh
To say Lewandowski was robbed Imo is a massive over exaggeration.
He was deserving of course, but ultimately he was pipped by someone equally deserving with what they had achieved last season with almost equally impressive numbers and international silverware.
But it is a joke of an award anyway.
Julian Lauren voted for Benzema, while Henry Winter voted for Jorginho. You would think journalists are less biased than fans but that isn't clearly the case.
Alright, fair enough. Personally, I look more at the ability of a player and see his performances as a product of said ability and how well the team is at bringing him in situations in which he excels. So I generally like to ask the question "if you put player A in the team of player B, would he still look worse?" and I don't think Messi would in Bayern.
But I also get that his 21/22 has been bad by his standards and he was easily worse than Lewandowski in this time frame.
I completely agree.
yeah it is weird that a player who conceded 3 goals against his direct Ballon Dor rival, only to be rescued by fecking Origi, is seen as undisputed choice
.Also Liverpool player losing should be enjoyed in United forum, but Messi-Ronaldo debate is bigger for some
I think the fact that Messi and Ronaldo normalized getting 50 goals and 22 asssist kind of made some people numb to the fact how insane that is. Since then they have been putting up numbers that are more mortal, but still topscorers. But essentially how can you compare VVD and Messi? The worlds best CB vs the worlds best forward(who's complete in anything apart from heading).yeah it is weird that a player who conceded 3 goals against his direct Ballon Dor rival, only to be rescued by fecking Origi, is seen as undisputed choice
Also Liverpool player losing should be enjoyed in United forum, but Messi-Ronaldo debate is bigger for some
The argument could be made.
But Lewandowski has won the Bundesliga many times and has not had any real chance of winning the Balon D'Or. So what is the issue?
He's been getting a shout because he's breaking records and having outrageous numbers, not for winning the Bundesliga.
Good post.It's funny how suddenly the Copa America is one of the greatest competitions in the world and the winner should definitely be rewarded. This is the first time I can remember that the winner of the Copa America also won the Ballon D'Or. It's honestly only because Messi won it that is gained this grandiose allure
Brazil won in 2019 and Allison didn't even make the top 5 despite having winning the UCL and having a great domestic season. Sanchez won the best player in 2016 but didn't even get in the top 30 that year, despite also having a great start to the 2016-17 season as well.
The Ballon d'Or has become a bit of a joke, and has been for a while.
If we're being brutally honest -
2010 - Sneijder should have won it.
2013 - Ribery should have won it.
2018 - Ronaldo should have won it.
2021 - Lewa should have won it.
It's more of a popularity contest, and there was no way a French Football magazine was not going to give it to a player of Messi's stature playing for the best French team in the French league
My train of thought is a bit like „i need a player for the upcoming 20 games and can pick whoever i want.“ Lewandowski would be the first i pick.
I agree with you btw, that Messi should have probably won every BdO since 2009. But looking at the calendar year 2021 he no longer was the clear cut #1 to me(!).
I'd have given it to Lewa but Messi winning it is no robbery nor tragedy. It was close between them too, its lucky for Messi voting ends end of October and he was injured so much early days in France.. He won it on November to September as opposed to November to November.
I mean, in the end the context varies and they didn't performed under laboratory conditions so it is always difficult to compare or to extrapolate "the absolute truth". I can fully understand why people favor Lewandowski even if I see it differently. In this case I just find it is very harsh to speak of "robbery".
I would say in a long paragraph
In 2019/2020,Lewandowski deserved the award for sure,a goalscoring machine and one of the most important factors of 6championships in one year.Phenomenon in all tournaments UCL,Bundesliga and DFB Pokal but France football had cancelled for a childlish reason,which I'm sure that if Messi and Ronaldo performed on this level at 2019/2020,they wouldn't cancel for sure.
In2020/2021,I would say in regular season like UCL,domestic league and cup,Lewandowski is still perform better than Messi in all of that regard.Messi may have a better number of assists,chances created and dribbles completed but they play in different roles.Messi had played in false9,right winger and sometimes cam during Koeman era,while Lewan had played in pure striker all during the season.I would still say that Lewandowski had performed better than Messi during all the season too.Unfortunately Lewandowski got an injured and then he missed very important matches against PSG in UCL and i'm sure that if Bayern had Lewandowski in match vs PSG,Bayern would win UCL in 2020/2021 for sure.
I would say the most important factor that bring goldenball to Messi is his performances in Copa America,he had performed really well in this tournament.He was a top goalscorers(4goals) and a top assister(5assists) in that tournament and other stats like dribbles,chances created,free kicks and through balls,he was on top of the tournament too.That was an excellent performances for me.
I suspect France Football idiotic reasons about cancelled this award in 2020,It's not fair and justice for me.I still mad about this,France football should host the 2020 Ballandor or they should give the award in last year(2020) for Lewandowski,I'm sure that everyone in this planet has no issue or doubt about Lewansowki for sure.In 2021,I think Lewan or Messi,whoever(from both) deserves the award in different reasons.
Lewandowski deserves the Ballandor,he win the award in my small heart.
In 2019/2020,Lewandowski deserved the award for sure,a goalscoring machine and one of the most important factors of 6championships in one year.Phenomenon in all tournaments UCL,Bundesliga and DFB Pokal but France football had cancelled for a childlish reason,which I'm sure that if Messi and Ronaldo performed on this level at 2019/2020,they wouldn't cancel for sure.
In2020/2021,I would say in regular season like UCL,domestic league and cup,Lewandowski is still perform better than Messi in all of that regard.Messi may have a better number of assists,chances created and dribbles completed but they play in different roles.Messi had played in false9,right winger and sometimes cam during Koeman era,while Lewan had played in pure striker all during the season.I would still say that Lewandowski had performed better than Messi during all the season too.Unfortunately Lewandowski got an injured and then he missed very important matches against PSG in UCL and i'm sure that if Bayern had Lewandowski in match vs PSG,Bayern would win UCL in 2020/2021 for sure.
I would say the most important factor that bring goldenball to Messi is his performances in Copa America,he had performed really well in this tournament.He was a top goalscorers(4goals) and a top assister(5assists) in that tournament and other stats like dribbles,chances created,free kicks and through balls,he was on top of the tournament too.That was an excellent performances for me.
I suspect France Football idiotic reasons about cancelled this award in 2020,It's not fair and justice for me.I still mad about this,France football should host the 2020 Ballandor or they should give the award in last year(2020) for Lewandowski,I'm sure that everyone in this planet has no issue or doubt about Lewansowki for sure.In 2021,I think Lewan or Messi,whoever(from both) deserves the award in different reasons.
Lewandowski deserves the Ballandor,he win the award in my small heart.
Last edited:
I hate the word 'gaslighting' but this Copa America business can't be described any other way.It's funny how suddenly the Copa America is one of the greatest competitions in the world and the winner should definitely be rewarded. This is the first time I can remember that the winner of the Copa America also won the Ballon D'Or. It's honestly only because Messi won it that is gained this grandiose allure
Brazil won in 2019 and Allison didn't even make the top 5 despite having winning the UCL and having a great domestic season. Sanchez won the best player in 2016 but didn't even get in the top 30 that year, despite also having a great start to the 2016-17 season as well.
Additional ponts:France football should design the award for Lewandowski better than this,I would say it's a terrible design.
You should respect him more.
Yeah, a „robbery“ it clearly is not.
Why was it cancelled last year, the votes would be done online. They could still have done it. They could have presented last years winner with their trophy last night.
This would make too much sense, Lewa definitely deserved it last year and there was no other contender which could have won it over him.