Ballon d'Or 2023 | Messi wins for 8th time

[adexkola]

Yes, its only hard to imagine because its impossible to imagine Haaland play like prime Messi.

And that's ok, he doesn't need to be prime Messi. Current Messi isn't even prime Messi.

All he needs to do is keep up his volume and production, and eventually he'll win one. The Ballon D'Or was rightly sealed for Messi the moment Argentina won the World Cup.

 

[Sandikan]

I assume the last few pages are Messi obsessives talking about the World cup, and others asking how the heck Messi won this when he had a fairly

Well deserved. Messi was breathtaking in the World Cup and had excellent numbers in Ligue 1. And banging in free kicks and wondergoals in the US now.

Bloody norma

 

[Fobal]

The main issue is that for moments the players involved are questioned to a degree that borders insanity or for instance Messi being labeled "very good" just because the Ballon D'OR never had really an indisputed and sustained clear criteria (maybe it shouldn't have one, being a prize vote by individuals based on their own subjective view like us here ina therad in a forum).

The Podium is correct, it might have also include Rodri or KDB (for me to a lesser extent). On a non WC year Erling would have had a lot more appeal for many voters, tap ins or not, semi, later stage goals or not and would have been perfectly fine if he won it. Even like I've said before the extreme focus on stats and titles it's not my Cup of Tea, but had become every year more relevant for the prize (might change, but I doubt it, that ship already sailed some time ago).

Yet what is really silly is the constant talk about outrageous robbery, the suppose historical analysis naming players like Sjneider and such as CLEAR winners (the clear is the issue here and worse the result a: clear robbery) that doesn't even resist an on the fly review, it's extremely silly.

As true as Messi is a Poster boy for the game, that there are lots of interests surrounding him, that this would give him an extra that might bother. Apparently on the other side of the coin: there weren't Campaigns to propelled CR , or the sudden realization that Iniesta was spanniard (Xavi not that much) in 2010 to avoid Messi even being named a candidate for moments. In those years it was even said that Messi was just a product of Xavi's and Iniesta's assists without even looking how many they produced in total in 2010 and how many of those were for Messi and the proliferation of journos and influencers that found there nich by trashing Messi for everything and anything.
Apparently this stuff do not exist, but the truth is that all this mixed bag of influences existed AND SHOULD never be the base to trash the talent of any Messi, CR, Hallaand or whomever is at the Top Tier of this beloved fecking game.

 

[Red the Bear]

Some here do actually want that, yeah

Well I suppose you do have to be a bit of masochist to watch United week in week out.

 

[Ish]

Well I suppose you do have to be a bit of masochist to watch United week in week out.

I tell ya. Karma for all those SAF years.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He's not capable of it, but he doesn't need to. If he continues like this and wins trophies, the only ones who will be quibbling about his "lack of all round game" will be the draft forum savants.

The vast majority of players don't come close to those 2, whether they are poachers or all round players.

I'm pushing back against this idea that a striker who scores a lot is unworthy of consideration for the award in general because "all he does is score", as if that's not the objective of the sport.

You missed the point. He isn’t able to overshadow great World Cup winners because that’s all he is. He may eventually win a Balon Dor, who knows.

I think he is unworthy for what I think the trophy should be but he isn’t for what it is. But he has to achieve things to make it happen as he’s got competition.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Well I suppose you do have to be a bit of masochist to watch United week in week out.

There’s coping with our football and then there’s the ones who salivate themselves over rival players and managers. That lot can feck right off.

 

[Son]

He was the story of the World Cup.

Greatest career of all time and arguably the WC greatest final of all time. That’s easily enough to win the Ballon D Or even as a retirement prize.

His World Cup win will live on forever which is the reason he wins it over tap in merchants playing for stacked club sides.

 

[Swoobs]

Kinda sad this kind of responses are what you are reduced to. Carry on

Greatest career of all time and arguably the WC greatest final of all time. That’s easily enough to win the Ballon D Or even as a retirement prize.

His World Cup win will live on forever which is the reason he wins it over tap in merchants playing for stacked club sides.

Forget about Haaland, you are talking to someone who thinks that any and all city players should have won the prize before messi. Imagine someone telling you that Stones was a better player than Messi for the period the prize was voted for

 

[Gehrman]

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[Jeppers7]

Kinda sad this kind of responses are what you are reduced to. Carry on



Forget about Haaland, you are talking to someone who thinks that any and all city players should have won the prize before messi. Imagine someone telling you that Stones was a better player than Messi for the period the prize was voted for

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Wc performances are often overrated. Sure if it's a maradonnaesque heroic from start to finish. But at the end of the day it's all about 3-4 runs of games where it matters (discounting the group stages)

It should only be a tie breaker.

But i have no complain if they give it to Messi as a last send-off although I'd prefer Halaand to win it as a new era post MessiNaldo

We should count the group stages. Halland went missing in many semi finals and finals. He also has a far better supporting cast for his trophies than Messi did

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

For what? Winning a world cup, playing a few games at PSG then moving to the retirement league in America? Haaland deserves it and it isn't even close.

nah, halland was absolutely MIA in just about every single semi final and final he played in. Remove his CL goals and city
still win the title. He also had a better supporting cast than Messi, lots of votes for rodri too. Messi carried that Argentina team more than Haaland did city.

So yeah, Messi all day everyday, even haaland’s teammates think so.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Greatest career of all time and arguably the WC greatest final of all time. That’s easily enough to win the Ballon D Or even as a retirement prize.

His World Cup win will live on forever which is the reason he wins it over tap in merchants playing for stacked club sides.

No need to bring Ronaldo into this

 

[JogaBonitoRooney]

I dunno what the world would do with football as a whole, I dunno how this too much for my liking stat oriented focus trend will follow, I hope players like Platini, Cryuff, Zico,

All these players had great goalscoring stats especially for AMs / Wingers / Forwards. They're were not pure 9s.

 

[Fobal]

All these players had great goalscoring stats especially for AMs / Wingers / Forwards. They're were not pure 9s.

Of course, I know that man, I'm a geezer, I've even watched many of them play.
In fact so did Pele, Messi, Alfredo and cia and not as much the players I've mentioned after the quoted sentence. Yet what I was pointing out is that their stats, as extraordinary as many of them were, in more than one sense felt secondary. Their off the charts footballing ability was the main focus when people loved them, if people talked about goals, we tend to talk more about THE goal, the type of goal, the moment, the goals itself, not the quantity.

It's not that we fans or even the media were extremely focus or remembering everytime how many goals they made, people didn't even count how many assists etc...so when Prizes like the Ballon D OR became in later years so much focused on those, without considering the whole picture of what a player can do in a pitch, this opened the door to a new consideration were we might face a future were only maninly those who won CLs or score more should only be considered.

Goals being important criteria and considered, it's a lock, it's logical and inevitable historically.
Still in the past there was more space without an extreme level of controversy of having a player considered having a better season than others without being the best goalscorer or the one that won the CL. Nowadays sometimes people throw names like Jorginho without even actually considering how they played when winning the titles and what real level the player has when we have to actually name him THE BEST player in the world.

Today there still is place and in recent past sometimes not necessarily the CLs winner got it, etc.
Yet it required an alien like Messi to break that "requirement" (because at the end of the day, he also always had the stats too) or someone like CR that also had them. What I fear is what would happen when more normal players in comparison can become almost a deadlock just for their numbers. Maybe it would never happen, but there is a chance that it might and it's just not my piece of cake.

 

[B20]

The irony given the Barcelona alegations



According to my opinion it should have been:

2008: Ronaldo
2009: Messi
2010: Sneijder
2011: Messi
2012: Messi / Ronaldo (Messi scored more goals but only won Copa del Rey, Ronaldo scored 30 less goals but won La Liga and reached semis of the Euro)
2013: Ribery / Robben
2014: Ronaldo (broke the CL record of goals, benefited from Germany winning the WC with a very balanced team with no one really shining individually above the others)
2015: Messi
2016: Ronaldo
2017: Ronaldo
2018: Modric
2019: Van Dijk
2021: Lewandowski
2022: Benzema
2023: Haaland

He scored 91 goals in 2012, 6 more than the previous alltime record. You're clearly off your head.

 

[B20]

How can you win Ballon D'or as a striker scoring 0 goals & 0 assists in 7 semis & finals with City when City scored 12 goals in those 7 games? Haaland was basically bailed out by an already great City team that easily dominates PL even without a striker prior to Haaland's arrival. The guy was not even the best player at City with KDB and Rodri.. Rodri was even chosen as the official MVP of the CL and MOTM of the CL final.

Something something about Haaland standing around playing hide and seek really creating chances for his teammates.

 

[Gehrman]

He scored 91 goals in 2012, 6 more than the previous alltime record. You're clearly off your head.

And still dribbled like best ever and all that which just makes it his overall year more impressive. He didnt turn into Gerd Müller, he scored more goals and did things on a weekly basis that only Messi could do. At least in this era.

 

[Donaldo]

He scored 91 goals in 2012, 6 more than the previous alltime record. You're clearly off your head.

I think you'll find 90% in this thread are.

 

[Gehrman]

I think you'll find 90% in this thread are.

Im more like. Peak Messi scored like Pelé, dribbled like Maradona and passed like Cryuff. I mean its not just his freak goalscoring. His other attributes were insane. And his decison making has always been impeccable. Its like for some, okay he scored 91 goals and put the best defenders on their arse for fun, but its not enough Barcelona if didnt win the CL. Or whatever team trophy.

 

[Rojow]

That’s an example about how people reduce players to a mere numbers. Maybe Haaland will break that record, who knows, but what is sure is he isn’t reaching never that level of impact on the overall game. It will depend of how much service he can get.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

The irony given the Barcelona alegations



According to my opinion it should have been:

2008: Ronaldo
2009: Messi
2010: Sneijder
2011: Messi
2012: Messi / Ronaldo (Messi scored more goals but only won Copa del Rey, Ronaldo scored 30 less goals but won La Liga and reached semis of the Euro)
2013: Ribery / Robben
2014: Ronaldo (broke the CL record of goals, benefited from Germany winning the WC with a very balanced team with no one really shining individually above the others)
2015: Messi
2016: Ronaldo
2017: Ronaldo
2018: Modric
2019: Van Dijk
2021: Lewandowski
2022: Benzema
2023: Haaland

Horrible take and 91 goals in 2012 days otherwise

WC >> CL

Haaland had to show up in semi finals and finals of knockout rounds.
And no way can dijk over Messi in 2019. Liverpool was far more of a team effort than Barca in 2019. Look up mane interviews from 2019 and even he says Messi over VVD in 2019. Far bigger carry job

 

[Swoobs]

Horrible take and 91 goals in 2012 days otherwise

WC >> CL

Haaland had to show up in semi finals and finals of knockout rounds.
And no way can dijk over Messi in 2019. Liverpool was far more of a team effort than Barca in 2019. Look up mane interviews from 2019 and even he says Messi over VVD in 2019. Far bigger carry job

Thing is, its not even just because of 91 goals. It is because of 91 goals + GOAT level dribbling and playmaking. Fanatics of a certain someone like to reduce it to just goals because its the only aspect that they are comparable at, but with Messi goals are just a byproduct of his football general play

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Thing is, its not even just because of 91 goals. It is because of 91 goals + GOAT level dribbling and playmaking. Fanatics of a certain someone like to reduce it to just goals because its the only aspect that they are comparable at, but with Messi goals are just a byproduct of his football general play

There you go, arguing for anyone else that year is just laughable

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Do you think Messi could ever lead Norway to a World Cup?

Do you think Haaland could lead Argentina to a WC? He doesn’t show up in semi finals or finals with an even better team Than Argentina with City

 

[Vialli_92]

Some of you go on about needing to produce it in a World Cup to get the status for winning the Bent Ballon D’Or is bullsh!t. feck sake it’s every 4 years unlike the domestics be it here or in Europe which is every year. We all know if favours those who play in La Liga.

Not forgetting (( Haaland as an example)) will never win a World Cup because Norway don’t have the surrounding players to make that possible, they never even qualified.

We know Messi has produced it year in, year out and has won Ballon D’Ors on merit but not this one. Tell me what he’s done outside a competition that comes around every 4 years Over the last 12 months?

For the record he still didn’t do it in the hardest league in football and when he did was surround by world class players. Do I think he could have done it in the Premier league? Yes I do, BUT HE DIDN’T so that will always leave food for thought. Ronaldo did it in all the best league and certainly wasn’t surrounded by world class players all his life.

Rant over…

Why does he have to do it in the premier league?

Just because the club you support plays in the premier league?

Seems very strange that the premier league is the only league in the world that matters

 

[Zehner]

I think over all the debates whether or not the WC games matter more or not, Messi's club season doesn't get enough credit. He's been nothing short of brillant for PSG last season.

 

[heraklion]

Why does he have to do it in the premier league?

Just because the club you support plays in the premier league?

Seems very strange that the premier league is the only league in the world that matters

According to that "brilliant" logic, Benzema, Xavi, Iniesta, Marcelo, Sergio Ramos, Dani Alves, Kroos, Griezmann, Mbappe, Neymar, Totti, Pirlo, Cannavaro, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Rivaldo, Kaka, Milito, Sneijder, Eto'o etc. etc. are all unproven because they did not play in mighty Premier League the league that La Liga, Serie A teams regularly destroyed.. They should have also chosen to live in the most amazing cities of the world, Manchester or Liverpool rather than mediocre, boring towns like Barcelona, Madrid, Milan etc.

Why should these players choose to move to an inferior Premier League? Between 2000-2020, La Liga teams won 10 CL titles and PL teams only 4 times, just one more than what Bayern from Bundesliga won in the same period.

"Premier League's pain in Spain: Arsenal loss to Atletico Madrid means English sides have lost 23 of last 27 European knockout ties against their La Liga counterparts"
www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5690749/English-sides-lost-23-27-European-knockout-ties-against-La-Liga-counterparts.html

Regardless, Messi already did serious damage to PL teams whenever he faced them, the player with 6th most goals against the PL big six (United, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham), that's without even playing in the PL..

Messi scored 27 goals in 35 games against big six.. Even Ronaldo could only score 29 goals in 82 games against big six..

 

[antohan]

I think over all the debates whether or not the WC games matter more or not, Messi's club season doesn't get enough credit. He's been nothing short of brillant for PSG last season.

I doubt most people watch PSG much at all bar their annual knock out failure in the CL.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

The Ballon D’Or has been bent for years and no longer has the status it deserves. We have the best league in the world with the majority of the best player yet they can’t win it because they don’t play in La Liga

There was a player last year won…
Champion League
Premier League
FA Cup
UEFA Player of the year
Golden Boot
Premier League Player of the season
Broke records for fun

Yet doesn’t get a sniff.

Ps.. Just for the record and show how bent it is Bellingham wins it next year even if he doesn’t deserve it.

Soooo to illustrate a point that already doesn't make sense in 2023 (La Liga didn't get a snif), you've created an imaginary scenario where Bellingham wins it next year and doesn't deserve, even though he might actually not win it, and even if he does, he might actually deserve it. But I guess the point sounded really good in your head?

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That's a very nice read, and it makes a lot of sense.

I think over all the debates whether or not the WC games matter more or not, Messi's club season doesn't get enough credit. He's been nothing short of brillant for PSG last season.

I guess you don't watch them either. He was good in the build up to the WC (as expected, Neymar too) and then pretty much checked out after his win in Qatar. "Nothing short of brilliant" is an absurd overstatement of his season there.

 

[Zehner]

Soooo to illustrate a point that already doesn't make sense in 2023 (La Liga didn't get a snif), you've created an imaginary scenario where Bellingham wins it next year and doesn't deserve, even though he might actually not win it, and even if he does, he might actually deserve it. But I guess the point sounded really good in your head?

That's a very nice read, and it makes a lot of sense.

I guess you don't watch them either. He was good in the build up to the WC (as expected, Neymar too) and then pretty much checked out after his win in Qatar. "Nothing short of brilliant" is an absurd overstatement of his season there.

15 scorers in 1980 minutes is hardly "checking" out when you consider the position he plays. 88 minutes per scorer over the whole club season is definitely brillant.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

15 scorers in 1980 minutes is hardly "checking" out when you consider the position he plays. 88 minutes per scorer over the whole club season is definitely brillant.

So, once again, you have no idea what you were talking about, and just checked stats?

 

[heraklion]

So, once again, you have no idea what you were talking about, and just checked stats?

Is this an average season to you? With that logic, Mbappe has average or below average season as well.

Messi league stats
Ligue 1 assist leader
Most MOTM in Europe (14 vs Mbappe with 7)
Highest per game rating in Europe 8.28 (vs Mbappe with 7.80)
39 G+A in 40 games in Ligue 1 + CL (vs Mbappe with 45 G+A in 42 games).

Europe 2nd most assists total in the league + CL (right after KDB)
Europe 2nd most big chance creation (right after Bruno)
Europe 2nd most successful dribbles (right after Vinicius)

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Is this an average season to you? With that logic, Mbappe has average or below average season as well.

Messi league stats
Ligue 1 assist leader
Most MOTM in Europe (14 vs Mbappe with 7)
Highest per game rating in Europe 8.28 (vs Mbappe with 7.80)
39 G+A in 40 games in Ligue 1 + CL (vs Mbappe with 45 G+A in 42 games).

Europe 2nd most assists total in the league + CL (right after KDB)
Europe 2nd most big chance creation (right after Bruno)
Europe 2nd most successful dribbles (right after Vinicius)

I'm not talking about the season - I'm talking about the dynamic of his season. He was stellar pre-WC, and then came back and went through the motions.

Did you watch his games at PSG that seasons, beyond looking at stats with no context?

 

[Zehner]

So, once again, you have no idea what you were talking about, and just checked stats?

No. Why are you always so passive aggressive by the way?

 

[Rooney in Paris]

No. Why are you always so passive aggressive by the way?

I don't think I am - I just find it very boring to reduce a conversation about a player's season to stats, completely disconnected from any context. Which is what you have a tendency to do.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Do you think Haaland could lead Argentina to a WC? He doesn’t show up in semi finals or finals with an even better team Than Argentina with City

You're using the plural when he played in one season of CL semi-finals and final with City, pretty ridiculous to make that point about his career at this point, come back in 3-4 years.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

So, once again, you have no idea what you were talking about, and just checked stats?

I would call it a "good" season for Messi and a "great" season for any other player. Both Messi and Neymar were clear of Mbappe performance-wise in the first half of the season. Mbappe was scoring goals, but his performances were not that great, his finishing was a bit erratic and he was a bit selfish, while feeding off of golden opportunities Messi and Neymar were providing him. Messi and Neymar both ghosted the CL tie against Bayern and an injured Mbappe came in and at least scored against them, and that colored the rest of the season. Messi and Neymar sort of lost interest (injury in Neymar's case) when the fans turned on them and made them scapegoats and Mbappe finished with a strong scoring spree, helping PSG limp over the finish line to a title. Messi still racked up some stats in the latter half of the season, but for a variety of reasons, I don't think he had the same motivation. He probably already knew he was likely to leave, but still kept it professional.

If any young player had the overall season that Messi had, they would probably be the hottest property in Europe (I would say a notch above Kvara last season), but by Messi's standards it was just a "good" season, not great. Mbappe's wasn't particularly great either, though he scored goals, but I would just about have him edging it over Messi given the totality of circumstances over the season. What sets them apart is that in the PSG setup Mbappe was still an obvious danger in the Champions League, whereas Messi was easier to neutralize.

 

[Fobal]

Soooo to illustrate a point that already doesn't make sense in 2023 (La Liga didn't get a snif), you've created an imaginary scenario where Bellingham wins it next year and doesn't deserve, even though he might actually not win it, and even if he does, he might actually deserve it. But I guess the point sounded really good in your head?

That's a very nice read, and it makes a lot of sense.

I guess you don't watch them either. He was good in the build up to the WC (as expected, Neymar too) and then pretty much checked out after his win in Qatar. "Nothing short of brilliant" is an absurd overstatement of his season there.

I've watched the whole season and he was brilliant in the first half, even regarding his own best level and just "good to great" after the WC but mostly being a pro, he just wasn't there in full mind, clearly in disarray with the Ultras and even clearly pissed with the play of many of his teammates and mostly the club itself.
Like in some sort of ok I'll do my thing, if someone stupidly doesn't return me a pass, or loose the ball in a silly way, etc so be it... I'll just do my job and feck them if with this treatment.The contrast with the Feisty NT Messi was evident as fvck, yet not even Barca had that Messi too much.
To make it worse PSG last year fell from a cliff like usually does, but even worse there was a moment that it was just him and Killian and the last one still is pretty much spoil, not his fault BTW.

At the end of the day the issue with him is kind of a mixed bag that exceedes him and is inherent to the Club since sometime and the moment that he arrived and how and why he arrived.
In general PSG is putting themselves in a very bad place. They have a really busy football crowd, a la southamerican style, even more than many of the more traditional ones in Europe. Yet it's almost like an over the top reaction for being called plastic, or the Oil team, etc etc. So in order to feel like the part, they overreact, the Board too with that silly CL or nothing, the fans without their feet in their ground either and a large etc.

Messi also didn't arrive there in a quest, like PSG fans might have desired, he arrived there after being rejected by HIS club, clearly pissed with Laporta (no matter right or wrong) after beinng used for the elections and already having in PSG his mate Ney as a key figure in his new club and the New Kid on the Block in Killian.
The whole thing of the "I use the 30", the whole "I'm here to sum, you two are THE MAN here", ended biting his own tail.
He should have know better but I don't think he was in the right state of mind and after his normal first season and with already having the Ultras against and the whole internal issues of the squad, the second season already has lots of bad luggage from the first one.
More when fans compare his logical (yet not that typical) ubber comittment a la Diego with the NT of recent years.
That was a very bad mix of circumstances.

The ego related issues in the squad, relaxation, the really poor form of almost every other member of the squad at some point, the release of "secondary" players that were fantastic like Di Maria for them, while not having real high calibre subs plus having a rooster full of youngsters more eager to show themselevs than play as a team, was a mess. Also for me Lucho was the coach for that first season, to the very least the second one, not Poch at all, nor Galtier.

Even Killian realized too late how much he could benefited from his interactions in the field with Messi than being more preocupied for his status, his stats, his relation with the Ultras, with Neymar, the Press and board.

At the end of the day, his individual level that last season was great, more taking in account the state of PSG as a team, they would have not even win the Title (even his last goal was clutch in order to obtained it). Yet I do agree with you that is hard to name it overal Brilliant with the atmosphere there, with PSG fans expecting NT's team Messi (in an unrealsitic way IMO) and Messi even doing his job, clearly pissed.