Bebe | 2010/11 Performances

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TheMancRedDevil

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Nani scored a belter against Spurs in his what 2nd game for us? Although inconsistent he has always shown quality is there. Anderson ditto. Can't see valid comparison there. Nani and Anderson always had potential to be world beaters and Nani is getting there, Anderson is becoming a solid player as well.

The problem here is the price tag. For 7.5m you would expect someone who can cross a ball somewhere else besides row z, or a player that would beat his man and control a football, without 5 years further development in our academy and going on loan. His cited abilities are being pacy - well for that matter we could've bought Usein Bolt, he's even United fan and is sure to be quicker..

Why would we buy a raw article, waay behind in terms of development to what we have in the moment(Cleverly is much better winger and Welbeck and Macheda much better strikers than him), and learn him the basics in football, then maybe offloading him to 3rd tier club in League one and then hope he could come good. I mean to take a huge gamble like that he has to have something in the locker right now, not only potential.

If we're to buy someone from different league and country he has to be better than what we've got. In this case I'd have kept Cleverly and played him 7 games this season...
In that video someone posted in this thread, I thought that amongst the laughably poor crosses, there were several examples of a really good first touch, taking the ball in his stride and going straight on the attack.

There's something there but it's really, really raw at the moment.
 

Ubik

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Nani scored a belter against Spurs in his what 2nd game for us? Although inconsistent he has always shown quality is there. Anderson ditto. Can't see valid comparison there. Nani and Anderson always had potential to be world beaters and Nani is getting there, Anderson is becoming a solid player as well.

The problem here is the price tag. For 7.5m you would expect someone who can cross a ball somewhere else besides row z, or a player that would beat his man and control a football, without 5 years further development in our academy and going on loan. His cited abilities are being pacy - well for that matter we could've bought Usein Bolt, he's even United fan and is sure to be quicker..

Why would we buy a raw article, waay behind in terms of development to what we have in the moment(Cleverly is much better winger and Welbeck and Macheda much better strikers than him), and learn him the basics in football, then maybe offloading him to 3rd tier club in League one and then hope he could come good. I mean to take a huge gamble like that he has to have something in the locker right now, not only potential.

If we're to buy someone from different league and country he has to be better than what we've got. In this case I'd have kept Cleverly and played him 7 games this season...
Yet Nani, Anderson and Fletcher were all given up on by large portions of the fanbase. I myself never expected Fletcher to become vital to our midfield, and could not have imagined that Nani would become one of the best wingers on the planet. He wasn't just inconsistent, he was downright dreadful at times. And that's with having played plenty of first team matches, and trained since his youth with Sporting. "People aren't very good at spotting potential", so said Fergie, so I find it hard to understand why people comment that Bebe has none on the basis of a smattering of first time appearances in his debut season in an elite league.

The hyperbole in your argument doesn't do it much credit, either. He clearly can cross the ball elsewhere besides row Z. He's actually put in a couple of peaches in his time here, though sadly that one match against Wolves is the one that's remembered. Ronaldo's crossing was often initally derided, I recall (note, I am not saying he will become Ronaldo). Call me naive, but I can't envisage a scenario where the manager would play someone that actually couldn't control a football, or even just to a neglibigble extent. He's fast, strong and can kick the ball fecking hard, that's pretty much what I've made of him so far. He's not someone that was brought in off the street, he was a full time professional footballer at a team in the premier division of Portugal. Doesn't mean he's United quality, but it means he's a hell of a lot better than some people want to make out on here.
 

Mainoldo

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Yet Nani, Anderson and Fletcher were all given up on by large portions of the fanbase. I myself never expected Fletcher to become vital to our midfield, and could not have imagined that Nani would become one of the best wingers on the planet. He wasn't just inconsistent, he was downright dreadful at times. And that's with having played plenty of first team matches, and trained since his youth with Sporting. "People aren't very good at spotting potential", so said Fergie, so I find it hard to understand why people comment that Bebe has none on the basis of a smattering of first time appearances in his debut season in an elite league.

The hyperbole in your argument doesn't do it much credit, either. He clearly can cross the ball elsewhere besides row Z. He's actually put in a couple of peaches in his time here, though sadly that one match against Wolves is the one that's remembered. Ronaldo's crossing was often initally derided, I recall (note, I am not saying he will become Ronaldo). Call me naive, but I can't envisage a scenario where the manager would play someone that actually couldn't control a football, or even just to a neglibigble extent. He's fast, strong and can kick the ball fecking hard, that's pretty much what I've made of him so far. He's not someone that was brought in off the street, he was a full time professional footballer at a team in the premier division of Portugal. Doesn't mean he's United quality, but it means he's a hell of a lot better than some people want to make out on here.
But they all had TALENT.
 

Ubik

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But they all had TALENT.
Yup. Still got given up on.

Does Bebe? I don't know, which is why I'm withholding judgement. Hasn't even played seven full games for us yet.
 

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And the same can be said of the reverse.

I haven't seen anyone saying that he WILL make it here, only people withholding judgement and people giving up. Citing the likes of Fletcher, Nani and co is meant to show that players can and have progressed exceptionally in a reasonably short period of time. That's it. Not saying Bebe will, but he might.

The lines of argument that say "he can hardly kick a ball, not good enough for Crawley Town" are as ridiculous as anything I've read on here.
Exactly. I've seen posts on here that say he's never shown a single piece of promise or potential on the pitch...It's absolutely ludicrous. For some it's as if right now, after the little of what we've seen from Bebe, he will never be able to develop past that.
 

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Nani scored a belter against Spurs in his what 2nd game for us? Although inconsistent he has always shown quality is there. Anderson ditto.
And Bebe scored a brace against Wigan, one of which was a stunning volley after a few games....Doesn't mean anything though, not sure why you used Nani's early goal as some sort of mark of his future quality.
 

Mainoldo

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And Bebe scored a brace against Wigan, one of which was a stunning volley after a few games....Doesn't mean anything though, not sure why you used Nani's early goal as some sort of mark of his future quality.
I'm sure Nani has scored many of wonders in Sporting's reserves too... both points are pointless. However what remains is Nani has more talent and was an understandle risk Bebe wasn't.
 

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One positive note about bebe is when he does get into a position to cross he puts the ball in straight away no messing with step overs or cutting back like young ronaldo and nani used to do when they first came into the first team.
Yeah he puts it in like a Robot.
 

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One positive note about bebe is when he does get into a position to cross he puts the ball in straight away no messing with step overs or cutting back like young ronaldo and nani used to do when they first came into the first team.
Yeah, I thought the same. He gets himself into position and just puts the ball in.
 

Enigma_87

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Yet Nani, Anderson and Fletcher were all given up on by large portions of the fanbase. I myself never expected Fletcher to become vital to our midfield, and could not have imagined that Nani would become one of the best wingers on the planet. He wasn't just inconsistent, he was downright dreadful at times. And that's with having played plenty of first team matches, and trained since his youth with Sporting. "People aren't very good at spotting potential", so said Fergie, so I find it hard to understand why people comment that Bebe has none on the basis of a smattering of first time appearances in his debut season in an elite league.

The hyperbole in your argument doesn't do it much credit, either. He clearly can cross the ball elsewhere besides row Z. He's actually put in a couple of peaches in his time here, though sadly that one match against Wolves is the one that's remembered. Ronaldo's crossing was often initally derided, I recall (note, I am not saying he will become Ronaldo). Call me naive, but I can't envisage a scenario where the manager would play someone that actually couldn't control a football, or even just to a neglibigble extent. He's fast, strong and can kick the ball fecking hard, that's pretty much what I've made of him so far. He's not someone that was brought in off the street, he was a full time professional footballer at a team in the premier division of Portugal. Doesn't mean he's United quality, but it means he's a hell of a lot better than some people want to make out on here.
You can't compare Bebe to Nani, Anderson, Ronaldo, Fletcher and the likes. All of those have been in one of the best football academies in the world. The have been molded into professional players since very young age. They have been coached by one of the best youth coaches out there, they have played in all youth international setups(U17,U18,U21) etc..

These players were on the football map long before we came out knocking. Nani, Anderson are proven qualities. There is no question that they would be class players, even if they didn't make it at United. These players were/are established players at the age Bebe is at the moment.

Nani had a hell lot of assists in his first season(double figures if my memory serves me right), Anderson showed maturity and composure against Arsenal in his debut season. Both are way ahead of Bebe's league.

Ronaldo's potential was spotted over 1 game against Sporting pre-season. 1 game. Ronaldo's ball control and footballing abilities were up there since he came. Ronaldo again benefited from having a proper football education and at one of the best academies - Sporting.

I'm not saying that Bebe is utter shite and won't make it as a footballer. However with the price tag he's brought in you should expect more than an odd cross.

Players like Rossi and Pique were sold despite the obvious talent and in Rossi's case were given less chances to shine.

I'm sorry but - he's fast, strong and can kick the ball hard is hardly enough qualities to succeed at the highest level - at a club like United.

Ferguson himself said he has never watched him before he came at United, I don't think that's reassuring to say at least. In the reserves, bar that odd goal against Wigan he hasn't exactly shone, has he?

I'm sorry to be demanding, but I expect a 7.5m player to be capable to at least fit in our reserves, let alone first team.
 

amolbhatia50k

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He's such an easy target and I wish people would just go easy on him. His is a great story and he's obviously made of some great stuff to make it this far in life. But I think the problem is the expectations. He does not deserve to be judged by the same yardstick than the others are. The likes of Obertan have come from big big clubs in Europe. Bebe needs time, he is totally raw and we have to respect that.
 

Mainoldo

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fecking hell give him a chance, like you say he hasn't had the usual football education of a normal pro but let united educate him?

He is in a new country and as far as i know speaks little or no English.

Lets give him time at least a season to bed in.
No we don't need to be wasting £7m to educate footballers.. Spend that £7m in the streets of Salford looking out for kids that probably don't get notice because their family don't give them enough encouragement etc...
 

amolbhatia50k

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No we don't need to be wasting £7m to educate footballers.. Spend that £7m in the streets of Salford looking out for kids that probably don't get notice because their family don't give them enough encouragement etc...
What's that all about? Those kids probably don't have talent that's why they don't get noticed.

If you think Bebe has had easy circumstances then you're having a laugh. We aren't teaching him the ability to play but to harness his ability so he can play it well for us. This is not charity.
 

Enigma_87

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fecking hell give him a chance, like you say he hasn't had the usual football education of a normal pro but let united educate him?

He is in a new country and as far as i know speaks little or no English.

Lets give him time at least a season to bed in.
Well, having in mind he's 20ish and the physical peak of footballers is till the 30's I don't think it's a good idea to start educating him at 20, don't you think?

Especially at United. This is not Pop Idol, it's the highest level for every professional player..
 

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He's such an easy target and I wish people would just go easy on him. His is a great story and he's obviously made of some great stuff to make it this far in life. But I think the problem is the expectations. He does not deserve to be judged by the same yardstick than the others are. The likes of Obertan have come from big big clubs in Europe. Bebe needs time, he is totally raw and we have to respect that.
Agree. With his footballing education to date it is Obertan that should be embarrassed. He's had far more opportunity and coaching than Bebe and has shown little improvement or real potential in the 12 months at United.

I would sooner see Morrison get his opportunity than Obertan, but in reality, Cleverly would be far more deserving of his place in the 25 man squad. Although I think Cleverly's potential is what got him a loan, Obertaon is a back up player and always will be, Cleverly will become a top player.
 

Mainoldo

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What's that all about? Those kids probably don't have talent that's why they don't get noticed.

If you think Bebe has had easy circumstances then you're having a laugh. We aren't teaching him the ability to play but to harness his ability so he can play it well for us. This is not charity.
What a tunnel vision view!!

It seems like a charity, i'm well aware of his circumstances... He's just out of his depth. People keep talking about his lack of coaching regardless... all the coaching is great but Ian Wright never got the coaching either he did alright.
 

Lance Uppercut

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What a tunnel vision view!!

It seems like a charity, i'm well aware of his circumstances... He's just out of his depth. People keep talking about his lack of coaching regardless... all the coaching is great but Ian Wright never got the coaching either he did alright.
Ian Wright didn't move to a foreign country at 20, surrounded by strangers and unable to speak the language.

You dolt.
 

Mainoldo

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Agree. With his footballing education to date it is Obertan that should be embarrassed. He's had far more opportunity and coaching than Bebe and has shown little improvement or real potential in the 12 months at United.

I would sooner see Morrison get his opportunity than Obertan, but in reality, Cleverly would be far more deserving of his place in the 25 man squad. Although I think Cleverly's potential is what got him a loan, Obertaon is a back up player and always will be, Cleverly will become a top player.
Why should Obertan be embarrased? because he managed to get a football education. What is this dicussion turning into? What Obertan needs to do is stop feeling sorry for himself and start believing in his talent. His like a serious case of Adel Taarabt but in reverse the guy just lacks an ego.
 

Mainoldo

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Ian Wright didn't move to a foreign country at 20, surrounded by strangers and unable to speak the language.

You dolt.
Well maybe our scouts should have thought about that before they recommend us spending £7m on him. Considering we all seem to think all of this is analysed.

Lets be honest with ourselves we only brought him because he was recommended by a mate and there was rumours Madrid were close to getting him.
 

Lance Uppercut

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Well maybe our scouts should have thought about that before they recommend us spending £7m on him. Considering we all seem to think all of this is analysed.

Lets be honest with ourselves we only brought him because he was recommended by a mate and there was rumours Madrid were close to getting him.
:lol:
 

amolbhatia50k

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Well maybe our scouts should have thought about that before they recommend us spending £7m on him. Considering we all seem to think all of this is analysed.

Lets be honest with ourselves we only brought him because he was recommended by a mate and there was rumours Madrid were close to getting him.
Lets be honest, we know feck all about the happenings behind closed doors.

And I think you need to have faith that the scouts of the biggest club in the world know what all to think of whilst doing their job. Have you ever considered that the club actually believe giving him extensive training will be beneficial to us?
 

izzydiggler

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Perhaps he's doing something in training to suggest that he's ready but judging on what I've seen, I'd have kept him in the reserves for a year or 2 with the odd CC appearance to ease him in. He's so far behind on his football education, in a new country, new language etc so it's almost irresponsible to throw him into first team action.

It's unfair and he should be given plenty of time before making an assessment on him but as soon as you put on that shirt and play in front of the public, you simply have to perform and frankly, he has at times looked completely lost. I really think he should be taken away from first team action, use it as an experience and develop his game in the reserves until he's ready.
 

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One positive note about bebe is when he does get into a position to cross he puts the ball in straight away no messing with step overs or cutting back like young ronaldo and nani used to do when they first came into the first team.
That's true...if he had the step overs and the cut backs everyone would think that was talent and showing promise. However Bebe is a very direct footballer and I don't think that will change because it's just not his style. With more experience though this direct style he has can make him a very dangerous striker.

Well, having in mind he's 20ish and the physical peak of footballers is till the 30's I don't think it's a good idea to start educating him at 20, don't you think?

Especially at United. This is not Pop Idol, it's the highest level for every professional player..
It's called training in the world of football.

He's 20 yrs old and had been playing professionally for a year before we bought him. He's also played for the Portugal under-19s and the under-21s. In one of those games he played as a lone striker against England (they only lost 1-0). He didn't score but scored in the following match. He's not someone we've pulled off the street with no footballing experience.

Well maybe our scouts should have thought about that before they recommend us spending £7m on him. Considering we all seem to think all of this is analysed.

Lets be honest with ourselves we only brought him because he was recommended by a mate and there was rumours Madrid were close to getting him.
Arrogant of you to think that our scouts don't know how to do their job.

However the decision to buy a player does not rest with the scouts does it. Shouldn't think a purchase is made on a silly whim either. There will be discussions between experienced people at United, including the CEO, the manager, coaches and finance.

As for why we bought him.....well, to be fair, with that statement above all I can say is that you don't sound like you have much of a clue about what goes on in the boardroom of a top level football club like United.
 

Mainoldo

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That's true...if he had the step overs and the cut backs everyone would think that was talent and showing promise. However Bebe is a very direct footballer and I don't think that will change because it's just not his style. With more experience though this direct style he has can make him a very dangerous striker.

It's called training in the world of football.

He's 20 yrs old and had been playing professionally for a year before we bought him. He's also played for the Portugal under-19s and the under-21s. In one of those games he played as a lone striker against England (they only lost 1-0). He didn't score but scored in the following match. He's not someone we've pulled off the street with no footballing experience.

Arrogant of you to think that our scouts don't know how to do their job.

However the decision to buy a player does not rest with the scouts does it. Shouldn't think a purchase is made on a silly whim either. There will be discussions between experienced people at United, including the CEO, the manager, coaches and finance.

As for why we bought him.....well, to be fair, with that statement above all I can say is that you don't sound like you have much of a clue about what goes on in the boardroom of a top level football club like United.
Yeah true silly me.... Its not like you can phone up a manager and say, 'Hay you know that Cantona fella, what you think u reckon you could sell him to my club?' or randomly before a transfer window closes your chairman rings you and says ' Hay Harry i've just been offered a great deal for this Van Der Vaart bloke, what you reckon?'

No noo.... too simple that. A lot of negotiating and broad room meetings take place when discussing transfer... Maybe it was like the Ronaldinho deal and flu David Gill out to Portugal to negotiate the fee... Wish we had Kenyon back he would have held out for less money...
 

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Yeah true silly me.... Its not like you can phone up a manager and say, 'Hay you know that Cantona fella, what you think u reckon you could sell him to my club?' or randomly before a transfer window closes your chairman rings you and says ' Hay Harry i've just been offered a great deal for this Van Der Vaart bloke, what you reckon?'

No noo.... too simple that. A lot of negotiating and broad room meetings take place when discussing transfer... Maybe it was like the Ronaldinho deal and flu David Gill out to Portugal to negotiate the fee... Wish we had Kenyon back he would have held out for less money...
Fergie had his eye on Cantona before the phone call didn't he....Spurs already knew about VDV's ability......United had already agreed to buy Ronaldo, they just brought it forward one year. All the homework on those players had probably been done in advance. The homework on Bebe had not. That's why it wiil most probably have involved some discussion.
 

Ubik

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1. You can't compare Bebe to Nani, Anderson, Ronaldo, Fletcher and the likes. All of those have been in one of the best football academies in the world. The have been molded into professional players since very young age. They have been coached by one of the best youth coaches out there, they have played in all youth international setups(U17,U18,U21) etc..

These players were on the football map long before we came out knocking. Nani, Anderson are proven qualities. There is no question that they would be class players, even if they didn't make it at United. These players were/are established players at the age Bebe is at the moment.

Nani had a hell lot of assists in his first season(double figures if my memory serves me right), Anderson showed maturity and composure against Arsenal in his debut season. Both are way ahead of Bebe's league.

2. Ronaldo's potential was spotted over 1 game against Sporting pre-season. 1 game. Ronaldo's ball control and footballing abilities were up there since he came. Ronaldo again benefited from having a proper football education and at one of the best academies - Sporting.

3. I'm not saying that Bebe is utter shite and won't make it as a footballer. However with the price tag he's brought in you should expect more than an odd cross.

Players like Rossi and Pique were sold despite the obvious talent and in Rossi's case were given less chances to shine.

I'm sorry but - he's fast, strong and can kick the ball hard is hardly enough qualities to succeed at the highest level - at a club like United.

4. Ferguson himself said he has never watched him before he came at United, I don't think that's reassuring to say at least. In the reserves, bar that odd goal against Wigan he hasn't exactly shone, has he?

I'm sorry to be demanding, but I expect a 7.5m player to be capable to at least fit in our reserves, let alone first team.
1. Once again, not comparing the talent, comparing the improvement (and potential for such). It clearly doesn't matter that these kids got world class footballing educations, because they were still cast as "not good enough for United", at similarly young ages. Obertan went to Clairefontaine, and he's being derided in the same fashion that Bebe currently is, so clearly that has no bearing here. Once again, not comparing the talent.

2. We weren't interested in Ronaldo because of that one game. It just made us speed up our purchase. Once again, not comparing the talent, just remarking on another player whose crossing was initially slated.

3. You may not be, but some are. Rossi and Pique had extenuating circumstances which are well known, Fergie would have liked to keep both I'm sure. As for his talents that I talked about - that was just to highlight the little I've seen of him for the club, that's all I've really been able to pick out. Fergie, watching him in training and with all the advanced analysis tools the club possesses, I'm sure knows more than that.

4. Not reassuring, no, very weird in fact. I can only assume that a scout that Fergie trusts implicitly saw something, and that we were in a hurry. I'm not one to believe the theories about back handers. His price has no bearing on whether he's good enough for the club, though. Him being immense in the reserves would be nice and a nerve calmer, for sure. Still wanting to wait until he's had longer with us to make a judgement, though.
 

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look he was useless on saturday but he must be doing something right in training to merit even a place on the team. give the lad time. rooney was no better either when he came on. actually he was just as useless.
 

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Lets be honest, we know feck all about the happenings behind closed doors.

And I think you need to have faith that the scouts of the biggest club in the world know what all to think of whilst doing their job. Have you ever considered that the club actually believe giving him extensive training will be beneficial to us?
Is it not inconceivable that whatever scouts we employ have made a monumental mistake just this one time?

I'm not saying they have, but I simply cannot ignore the evidence of my own eyes just on the faith that they know what they're doing.

With young players, you sometimes see something that marks them as having potential to be something more. Something you can work with. With Bebe, when I heard stuff like 'street footballer' I was sort of expecting someone who has the technical side (touch under pressure, awareness of space etc) figured out, and needs work on discipline and general knowledge of how to play the game at this level; I've been disappointed.

More, I've been disappointed that his 'raw materials' have been described as his extraordinary strength and pace. Don't get me wrong, these are good qualities to have in a footballer. But they do not come first. Football is played with a ball.
 

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look he was useless on saturday but he must be doing something right in training to merit even a place on the team.
Not necessarily. His big transfer fee almost demands he had to start in a game like this regardless of what he has shown in training.
His crossing has improved but it was all strangely head down and detached. What I wanted to see from him was push the ball past a player or carry the ball a bit more. Too often he just wanted to cross the ball instantly regardless of the situation.
 

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In my opinion, I think Ferguson bought Bebe based on his underlying courage and determination. This is a boy that came from nothing and i'm not talking about back streets of mediera, Liverpool or Rio. He had no home, he has no family and still has managed to make something out of his life.
 

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In my opinion, I think Ferguson bought Bebe based on his underlying courage and determination. This is a boy that came from nothing and i'm not talking about back streets of mediera, Liverpool or Rio. He had no home, he has no family and still has managed to make something out of his life.
he could have given him money to do a degree at University instead of bringing him to Old Trafford





:angel:
 
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