Ben Shapiro

[freeurmind]

Typical political commentator who twists or misrepresents facts to suit whatever argument he's presenting. Very effective at tapping into the anti-PC culture that emanates online especially on social media. Also always seems to want to present every single debate or discussion into a left vs. right debate which again is a very popular thing to do these days. He basically spends most of his time trolling and trying to get a rise out of people. Put him in a real debate where he has to propose real solutions to solve real issues and he basically has nothing to offer.

 

[hobbers]

Gender and sex is often deliberately conflated by those campaigning for trans rights, on topics such as using the bathroom of the other sex, or competing in sports against those of the other sex, so why is it so bad for Shapiro to conflate the two in his response? As far as his comments go on the subject he clearly states he feels bad for the sufferers and he does not care what people choose to wear, which medical procedures they choose to go through or what they choose to call themselves, so long as he isn't legally compelled to respond in a certain way.

As for the question of whether it's a mental illness, of course it is. Bringing homosexuality into the equation to refute that makes no sense. In this day and age, unless you or your parents are very religious, being gay has little to no adverse impact on your self esteem or quality of life. In the west it would seem to correlate to a better quality of life, at least for men. The same obviously cannot be said for gender dysphoria, which has a similar impact on suicide attempt rates as severe clinical depression.

If someone has depression, you say they have depression. If someone is bipolar, you say they are bipolar. Mislabelling gender dysphoria as some kind of new age fad does nothing to help the sufferers.

 

[Halftrack]

As for the question of whether it's a mental illness, of course it is.

I'll be as clear as humanely possible: No. It. Is. Not. Please cut that shit out.

As for why homosexuality is brought into the equation, it too was once seen as a mental illness that could be treated.

And the idea that being gay has little to no adverse impact is, quite frankly, laughable. Yes, it's a lot easier than it used to be, but gay people stoll have to deal with a lot of shit straight people don't.

 

[Kaos]

Had the misfortune of listening to his verbal diarrhea on net neutrality. Just confirms he's nothing more than a charlatan contrarian who channels anti-PC rhetoric for traction.

 

[Cheesy]

I'll be as clear as humanely possible: No. It. Is. Not. Please cut that shit out.

As for why homosexuality is brought into the equation, it too was once seen as a mental illness that could be treated.

And the idea that being gay has little to no adverse impact is, quite frankly, laughable. Yes, it's a lot easier than it used to be, but gay people stoll have to deal with a lot of shit straight people don't.

It still is seen that way by some pretty powerful people to a certain extent; Mike Pence has been supportive of conversion therapy before. The man who's a scandal away from being the world's most powerful political figure.

 

[Raoul]

Shapiro is a charlatan. He'd be better off selling products on late night tv.

 

[MrMarcello]

Hasan Piker had a good take on Shapiro.

 

[MrMarcello]

Btw, there is another thread with the same title, perhaps merge?

 

[Ødegaard]

Btw, there is another thread with the same title, perhaps merge?

Yes there is.

 

[hobbers]

I'll be as clear as humanely possible: No. It. Is. Not. Please cut that shit out.

As for why homosexuality is brought into the equation, it too was once seen as a mental illness that could be treated.

And the idea that being gay has little to no adverse impact is, quite frankly, laughable. Yes, it's a lot easier than it used to be, but gay people stoll have to deal with a lot of shit straight people don't.

It is though. In just about every western country it is classified as a mental disorder, which is a damn good thing for medical coverage and health insurance purposes. You can argue semantics but, like it or lump it, it is a disorder resulting from hormonal i.e. biochemical imbalances that causes severe distress to the sufferer, which fits the definition of a mental illness very neatly.

Gay people do have to deal with shit straight people don't, yes, but that comes from outside influences. It usually isn't an innate inner turmoil. Even when it was illegal and heavily persecuted it didn't drive anything like the levels of self harm that gender dysphoria does.

 

[Scarecrow]

Is there a difference between a mental illness and a mental disorder? Are those two separate diagnostic categories?

I'm pretty sure Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder, as it used to be called "Gender Identity Disorder" until recently.

 

[DOTA]

Gender dysphoria is a mental health condition where significant stress is experienced as a result of being transgender. Being trans is not an illness. Being extremely stressed due to being trans is.

EDIT - On topic - I find Ben Shapiro really boring.

 

[Zarlak]

As for the question of whether it's a mental illness, of course it is. Bringing homosexuality into the equation to refute that makes no sense. In this day and age, unless you or your parents are very religious, being gay has little to no adverse impact on your self esteem or quality of life. In the west it would seem to correlate to a better quality of life, at least for men. The same obviously cannot be said for gender dysphoria, which has a similar impact on suicide attempt rates as severe clinical depression.

Is that based on your qualified expert opinion?

 

[hobbers]

Is that based on your qualified expert opinion?

It is actually. I'm also a qualified expert in calling a spade a spade and asserting that ducks go quack.

 

[Shamwow]

As for the question of whether it's a mental illness, of course it is. Bringing homosexuality into the equation to refute that makes no sense. In this day and age, unless you or your parents are very religious, being gay has little to no adverse impact on your self esteem or quality of life. In the west it would seem to correlate to a better quality of life, at least for men. The same obviously cannot be said for gender dysphoria, which has a similar impact on suicide attempt rates as severe clinical depression.

Do you see how you undermined your own argument here?

 

[Zarlak]

It is actually. I'm also a qualified expert in calling a spade a spade and asserting that ducks go quack.

So no, then.

 

[hobbers]

Do you see how you undermined your own argument here?

No.

So no, then.

No. But thankfully for those with gender dysphoria the qualified expert brigade (incidentally, how can you become a qualified expert in this field?) have deemed it a mental disorder. Since you seemed to ignore the rest of my post you might have missed the point about how you might go about financing treatment for things that are *NOT AN ILLNESS* .

 

[Zarlak]

No.



No. But thankfully for those with gender dysphoria the qualified expert brigade (incidentally, how can you become a qualified expert in this field?) have deemed it a mental disorder. Since you seemed to ignore the rest of my post you might have missed the point about how you might go about financing treatment for things that are *NOT AN ILLNESS* .

We're not talking about gender dysphoria, Ben Shapiro believes that trans people are suffering from a mental illness. Which the experts absolutely do not deem a mental disorder. In fact, they're quite positive that it's not.

I'm not sure what your point about financing treatment has to do with anything. It seems like you'd use my answer as some kind of defence against something I doubt I ever argued with you in the first place. This is about Ben and his horrible views that normal people are mentally ill and delusional.

 

[Raoul]

Shapiro talks like Dr. Phlox from Star Trek Enterprise.

 

[hobbers]

We're not talking about gender dysphoria, Ben Shapiro believes that trans people are suffering from a mental illness. Which the experts absolutely do not deem a mental disorder. In fact, they're quite positive that it's not.

I'm not sure what your point about financing treatment has to do with anything. It seems like you'd use my answer as some kind of defence against something I doubt I ever argued with you in the first place. This is about Ben and his horrible views that normal people are mentally ill and delusional.

But genuine transsexuals all suffer from gender dysphoria.

Unless we're branching into the far more murky depths of transtrenders, of pretending there is a different gender for every individual and we can swap between them all whenever we like. Those people aren't mentally ill, just seeking attention and/or a way to feel unique.

 

[Stactix]

Hasan Piker had a good take on Shapiro.

I just knew he'd be in favour of revoking Net neutrality.. but it's nice to see him getting put in his place.
I do love how he buys into the same fecking argument that practically every fecker defending this has brought into that before 2015 there was no net neutrality and the internet was fine, that's incredibly far from the truth..




I'd be interested to see what his view on Trump/Tax Bill/Guns / Healthcare.. oh wait, I imagine I could probably fecking guess.

 

[DOTA]

But genuine transsexuals all suffer from gender dysphoria.

Unless we're branching into the far more murky depths of transtrenders, of pretending there is a different gender for every individual and we can swap between them all whenever we like. Those people aren't mentally ill, just seeking attention and/or a way to feel unique.

Where do those who don't experience dysphoria but keep their transgender status a secret as much as possible fit in to Dr Hobs definitions? It's unclear how they are encompassed in those descriptions.

 

[Ødegaard]

I just knew he'd be in favour of revoking Net neutrality.. but it's nice to see him getting put in his place.
I do love how he buys into the same fecking argument that practically every fecker defending this has brought into that before 2015 there was no net neutrality and the internet was fine, that's incredibly far from the truth..




I'd be interested to see what his view on Trump/Tax Bill/Guns / Healthcare.. oh wait, I imagine I could probably fecking guess.

One of the topics I'd comfortably say he knows nothing about or is genuinely dishonest. In this case though, he earns money because of net neutrality so I think he is more talking out of his arse than being dishonest.

 

[DOTA]

This results in those women feeling like they don't belong in their own body because a typical female doesn't represent how they think or behave, and vice versa. Should we not be trying to rid our society of these feminine and masculine expectations, rather than opening up a new category of identification for people who better associate with the opposite sex based on said social pressure/expectations?

Funnily enough, feminism was working towards removing the masculine and feminine expectations placed on men and women. Their support of the transgender movement almost seems to be a complete u-turn on this, where they're supporting women who feel the "typical man" stereotypes better fit who they are as a person, so they in fact must be a man.

I have a possible explanation for these. It's that some people like gender roles and some don't, trans or otherwise. And, as a result, some feminists, being people and all, like gender roles and some don't.

Don't get me wrong, that is a simplification. But 'you can't expect diverse groups of people that don't claim to be united to offer unified opinions' about covers it.

 

[DOTA]

I see what you're saying, but I'm talking about the vocal third wave feminist lobby that blame everything on the patriarchy and have a fondness for virtue signalling. This is a group with a very clearly defined set of views, you'll never get 100% agreement on every single detail, but this is a group that are not in favour of gender roles and societal pressures (when it suits them of course - they've shown themselves to be massive hypocrites on a number of issues).

This is the same group who are so vocal in their support of the transgender movement. They just don't realise the contradiction. I can't say I'm surprised, rational thought and logic was never their strong point.

I'm a third wave feminist and a trans rights activist, so I can agree these positions can coincide.

What contradictory views would you expect me to have?

 

[DOTA]

Exactly what I said in my original post that you quoted.

It seems evident to me there's a massive overlap of people who hold both sets of views.

Yes, I want specifics, so I can see if 'myself' - someone subscribes to such labels - has any contradictory views that I cannot explain.

EDIT - I have a sudden fear that the things you refer to are the things I couldn't be arsed to read in the bit of your post I removed when I quoted...

I'll give it a read.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Where do those who don't experience dysphoria but keep their transgender status a secret as much as possible fit in to Dr Hobs definitions? It's unclear how they are encompassed in those descriptions.

From what I have read gender dysphoria is the discomfort felt from trying to identify or being identified as your biological sex when that isn't who you are. Surely every trans person must experience dysphoria to some degree if that's true no? Or is that not the whole definition?

 

[DOTA]

From what I have read gender dysphoria is the discomfort felt from trying to identify or being identified as your biological sex when that isn't who you are. Surely every trans person must experience dysphoria to some degree if that's true no? Or is that not the whole definition?

That's the key. We all experience stress to some degree, on all number of bases. For some it is severe enough to be classed as a medical condition. For many it is not.

 

[Halftrack]

It still is seen that way by some pretty powerful people to a certain extent; Mike Pence has been supportive of conversion therapy before. The man who's a scandal away from being the world's most powerful political figure.

I meant in the eyes of society in general, but yeah, there are still narrow-minded cnuts around.

But genuine transsexuals all suffer from gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is not required to qualify as transgendered, but it's true that most suffer from it to some extent. This does not allow you to sweepingly declare that transgendered people are mentally ill or delusional the way Shapiro does.

I also see that we have a "third wave feminism hivemind" poster, who ascribes all opinions ever uttered by a feminist to all feminists. Cool.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

That's the key. We all experience stress to some degree, on all number of bases. For some it is severe enough to be classed as a medical condition. For many it is not.

I don't know if I follow that logic, I understand what you are saying but surely for example if you suffer from depression to any degree then you still have depression. I think comparing dysphoria with general stress would be like comparing say postnatal depression with sadness, when both depression and dysphoria would be more specific and serious. I am not sure I did a good job of explaining what I am getting at, long day.

 

[DOTA]

I don't know if I follow that logic, I understand what you are saying but surely for example if you suffer from depression to any degree then you still have depression. I think comparing dysphoria with general stress would be like comparing say postnatal depression with sadness, when both depression and dysphoria would be more specific and serious. I am not sure I did a good job of explaining what I am getting at, long day.

I am saying many trans people's stress is not remotely akin to dysphoria but is more akin to the everyday worries we all have. Some of us suffer hugely with dysphoria and it is accurate to view this as a mental illness, some just suffer mild or moderate stress and it is not legitimate to view their stress as a medical condition just because other people struggle with it more.

There are so many factors at play.

My housemate lives a happy life and is trans. When his family is round he gets stressed and this is in part due to his transgenderism. Lots of us get stressed when our family come round. His stress being related to his trans status does not necessarily qualify it as a medial condition and the fact he copes in the long run shows it is not.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

I am saying many trans people's stress is not remotely akin to dysphoria but is more akin to the everyday worries we all have. Some of us suffer hugely with dysphoria and it is accurate to view this as a mental illness, some just suffer mild or moderate stress and it is not legitimate to view their stress as a medical condition just because other people struggle with it more.

Where would you say the line is? I know it is hard to summarize.

 

[DOTA]

Where would you say the line is? I know it is hard to summarize.

Same as any mental health issue. When it is severely effecting your ability to live your life.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Same as any mental health issue. When it is severely effecting your ability to live your life.

"Severely" is so subjective which is one of the problems we still have with diagnosing mental health problems. I was actually talking to someone I work with today about how strange it is that we completely overrate our understanding of mental health when we have only really seriously acknowledged it for a few decades, if that.

I understand that explanation but for example there are countless extremely high functioning people who suffer with depression, bipolar and so on.

 

[DOTA]

No, the bit you quoted and gave an explanation for.

Basically, the view that we should eliminate gender masculine/feminine stereotypes and the view that societal pressures on how men/women should act, feel and behave are unfair and damaging.

And then the view that if a woman feels she better identifies with masculine stereotypes and how society says a man should act, feel and behave, then she is in fact a man.

We should lessen gender stereotypes, because we have previously made them too rigid, but respect the fact that some people find gender concepts enriching, including many feminists and trans people, and me.

I'm not at all alone in thinking this, within either movement.

Wanting something to be less forced upon us doesn't mean you want it not to exist.

 

[DOTA]

"Severely" is so subjective which is one of the problems we still have with diagnosing mental health problems. I was actually talking to someone I work with today about how strange it is that we completely overrate our understanding of mental health when we have only really seriously acknowledged it for a few decades, if that.

I understand that explanation but for example there are countless extremely high functioning people who suffer with depression, bipolar and so on.

It is and as such it is only for professionals to diagnose.

I understand entirely. I've been in the mental health system for fifteen years and many doctors despite their training are obviously crap (some others are very professional, of course) - so it is thoroughly imperfect.

 

[DOTA]

Fair enough. What gender concepts do you like and think we should keep?

I like most, to be honest. I think, as a crude example, that there is truth to the idea the females tend to be more empathetic whilst males more competitive, and I see the good and bad in both and the link to sex hormones that said gender assumptions are grounded in.

And obviously I also see the many exceptions to the rule that make treating such an idea as an absolute silly and dangerous.

 

[Sweet Square]

https://mobile.twitter.com/robwhisman/status/948329627650613250

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I just knew he'd be in favour of revoking Net neutrality.. but it's nice to see him getting put in his place.
I do love how he buys into the same fecking argument that practically every fecker defending this has brought into that before 2015 there was no net neutrality and the internet was fine, that's incredibly far from the truth..




I'd be interested to see what his view on Trump/Tax Bill/Guns / Healthcare.. oh wait, I imagine I could probably fecking guess.

As Sam Harris said recently, you can pretty much disregard anyone whose opinion is 100% predictable on every contentious sociopolitical issue, no matter how much they shit on about "facts". Most of these issues are incredibly nuanced and it's really hard to come up with a conclusive "right" or "wrong" stance on them, even for experts. In fact, especially for experts. So when you hear someone with a black and white, clearly politically motivated, standpoint on everything they talk about then it's a big red flag that they're not interested in understanding any other point of view, just ramming their own preconceived notions down the throat of anyone who will listen to them.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

First time I ever heard of this fella was on the Joe Rogan podcast and instantly had a hatred for him. He mentioned his debate with Piers and how he shook him up and honestly I hate him as well but really didn’t see it at all. Looked like just a moron posturing more than Piers normally does.
His views on the gun debate are sickening. I just don’t see how anyone can like this guy.