Blaming the manager

[itso 7]

Carrick is not frozen out. He's 35 ffs. He needs to be carefully managed because his legs are gone. Mkhitaryan is still struggling to gain form. I also have ?? about Shaw talent. I guess he had become a great player the Da Silva/Jones way ie by sitting pretty in the treatment room. I fully agree on the Ibra case

I think that Mou could handle Chelsea better. There again I cant blame him for what happened. It always hard to get back in a game when you've got some idiot who keeps gifting goals to the opposition. He also doesn't have plenty of space to manoeuvre either. The squad's quality is dire.

Carrick is 35, agree on that but carefully managing him is not confining him to the Europa when we are bleeding in the league! Simply put we need what he offers so the manager has to find ways to mitigate his weaknesses by fielding him with players that are able to cover for them - Pogba and Herrera pressing ahead of him is more solid than the disjointed shit we saw yesterday. After that it's only a case of picking the fixtures he can play and tailoring his training regime. Schweinsteiger was simply frozen out, Mourinho is within his rights to do so but when the alternatives are Fellaini and Schneiderlin it starts looking like cutting off one's nose to spite the face.
You can question Shaw's talent only to the extent of asking whether he is world class yet but he has performed in a way that doesn't justify importing an accident waiting to happen like Blind into the backline, Blind has his uses but there are days where his weaknesses come to the fore.
The issue here is that the manager could and should have done better. We can berate the players all we want, sack managers for fun but there are fundamental issues at United that much is clear but the idea that the squad is not good enough when we are seeing Henderson lead Liverpool up the league or Conte come into Chelsea make one key signing and transform them then its clear that the manager could be doing more. What is more? How about finding a system that brings the best out of our top players, set up the most expensively assembled side in the league to compete or utilize what he has at his disposal better?

 

[devilish]

Carrick is 35, agree on that but carefully managing him is not confining him to the Europa when we are bleeding in the league! Simply put we need what he offers so the manager has to find ways to mitigate his weaknesses by fielding him with players that are able to cover for them - Pogba and Herrera pressing ahead of him is more solid than the disjointed shit we saw yesterday. After that it's only a case of picking the fixtures he can play and tailoring his training regime. Schweinsteiger was simply frozen out, Mourinho is within his rights to do so but when the alternatives are Fellaini and Schneiderlin it starts looking like cutting off one's nose to spite the face.
You can question Shaw's talent only to the extent of asking whether he is world class yet but he has performed in a way that doesn't justify importing an accident waiting to happen like Blind into the backline, Blind has his uses but there are days where his weaknesses come to the fore.
The issue here is that the manager could and should have done better. We can berate the players all we want, sack managers for fun but there are fundamental issues at United that much is clear but the idea that the squad is not good enough when we are seeing Henderson lead Liverpool up the league or Conte come into Chelsea make one key signing and transform them then its clear that the manager could be doing more. What is more? How about finding a system that brings the best out of our top players, set up the most expensively assembled side in the league to compete or utilize what he has at his disposal better?

I've never said that the manager can't do better. In matter of fact I've criticised him myself. All I am saying is that blaming him for Chelsea's game is ridiculous. Is it Mou's fault that Smalling was simply horrendous and gifted Chelsea the game?

Also why I acknowledge you've got some good points there, we also need to stop hyping the players who aren't playing as a justification of what we can do better. First of all we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. I am not a big fan of Failini but there's a reason why 3 managers have been playing him ahead of favourites like Schneiderlin, Herrera and co. Secondly quality is proven on the pitch and on a week in week out basis. Its not proven on the stands or in the treatment room.

Sentimentality and hype is what brought us in this ridiculous situation in the first place.

 

[Scholesy]

Starting Rooney at start of season
Not selling Fellaini and playing him most games (as first choice holding player, insanity!)
Playing Lingard ahead of Martial
Not using Carrick more
Not playing Miki
Not signing a pacey wideman
Humiliating and freezing out Schweinsteiger


Not good enough from Jose so far, most fans would agree the above are all obvious mistakes so if he can't see them, then we have no chance at all really.

 

[itso 7]

I've never said that the manager can't do better. In matter of fact I've criticised him myself. All I am saying is that blaming him for Chelsea's game is ridiculous. Is it Mou's fault that Smalling was simply horrendous and gifted Chelsea the game?

Also why I acknowledge you've got some good points there, we also need to stop hyping the players who aren't playing as a justification of what we can do better. First of all we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. I am not a big fan of Failini but there's a reason why 3 managers have been playing him ahead of favourites like Schneiderlin, Herrera and co. Secondly quality is proven on the pitch and on a week in week out basis. Its not proven on the stands or in the treatment room.

Sentimentality and hype is what brought us in this ridiculous situation in the first place.

Managers resorting to Fellaini, Young and co is a direct result of fear, its not that a manager shouldn't look to stop the other team hurting them but it shouldn't be done at the expense of creating goals. The other thing is that players by nature are different, some need to be built up slowly when they join a new team and they may disappoint initially but the manager needs to persist with them otherwise they are telling us that they made the team spend a princely sum on a player they didn't rate?

 

[devilish]

Managers resorting to Fellaini, Young and co is a direct result of fear, its not that a manager shouldn't look to stop the other team hurting them but it shouldn't be done at the expense of creating goals. The other thing is that players by nature are different, some need to be built up slowly when they join a new team and they may disappoint initially but the manager needs to persist with them otherwise they are telling us that they made the team spend a princely sum on a player they didn't rate?

So you're saying that Mou, LVG and Moyes have no clue about football?

 

[lysglimt]

What puzzles me is that at United, people always talk about giving the manager time. Get to know the players etc. Which is fine....

But why is it so much more difficult at United than at other clubs ?

Pochettino, Koeman, Conte, Guardiola, Puel, even Klopp last season....why can they improve the team in a short period of time - while Mourinho can't despite signing Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Zlatan and Bailly.

Conte has taken Chelsea from losers to champion contenders in 2 months....Mourinho has certainly not taken us in the right direction so far. Of course this can change....but with the kind of football he wants us to play, I doubt it will happen

 

[noodlehair]

When a manager picks players who he knows are average over talented ones, and the team loses 4-0, then yes you can blame him and you'd be a bit deluded not to.

I would also blame him for dropping players based on their form but then continuing to pick others regardless of form (Zlatan). That's the sort of thing that will demotivate a squad. He isn't playing well enough so don't play him. Or else you'll end up with an entire squad of people not playing well enough because what fecking difference does it make to them if Zlatan can do whatever he likes.

Also the fact we work less hard during games than literally every other team in the league. If it's tactical fine...IF it works. If it doesn't then you're just a team that loses games because it can't be bothered to run about as much as the other team, and again the person who changes that is the manager, not an individual player.

It's still early days and there's stuff I think he's done right as well, but it's important not to ignore mistakes and you should be able to criticise them. Similar to how Jose shouldn't be ignoring poor performances or mistakes from players just because he hasn't managed them for long.

 

[Smores]

What puzzles me is that at United, people always talk about giving the manager time. Get to know the players etc. Which is fine....

But why is it so much more difficult at United than at other clubs ?

Pochettino, Koeman, Conte, Guardiola, Puel, even Klopp last season....why can they improve the team in a short period of time - while Mourinho can't despite signing Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Zlatan and Bailly.

Conte has taken Chelsea from losers to champion contenders in 2 months....Mourinho has certainly not taken us in the right direction so far. Of course this can change....but with the kind of football he wants us to play, I doubt it will happen

Do you think all those teams had the same level and type of issues before their managers arrived?

They're all very different cases especially at Chelsea where it was key players mentally checking out.

 

[TheGame]

Nobody seemed to have a problem blaming everything on Moyes and Van Gaal. Interesting that people are so quick to come to Mourinhos defence.

I echo this.

 

[Green_Red]

Mate 20 years ago this month Phillipe Albert chipped Big Pete in a 5-0 loss at Newcastle, come the end of the season we still won the league.

Results like this do happen. I'm interested in what the table looks like in May 2017 not in October 2016. Six points off with 29 games to go. Too early to panic.

Well said

 

[Jaxdan]

But of course you can't judge a manager after 10 games. He should have a season at least. But if we are 7-th in the end of the season, then he will be gone more likely and rightly so.

I agree. But the way we looked yesterday, sadly, I'd say 7th would be an over achievement. Totally confused, out played, unsettled side. Of course we need to give Mou time to sort it out, and players are to blame for their own poor play, but he shouldn't be absolved of everything either. Was glad he at least got bothered enough to get in Conte's ear, while half of his players cavorted around Stamford Bridge in celebration of getting another big pay check. Troubling.

 

[dichinero]

What puzzles me is that at United, people always talk about giving the manager time. Get to know the players etc. Which is fine....

But why is it so much more difficult at United than at other clubs ?

Pochettino, Koeman, Conte, Guardiola, Puel, even Klopp last season....why can they improve the team in a short period of time - while Mourinho can't despite signing Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Zlatan and Bailly.

Conte has taken Chelsea from losers to champion contenders in 2 months....Mourinho has certainly not taken us in the right direction so far. Of course this can change....but with the kind of football he wants us to play, I doubt it will happen

You can't blame the manager and still be a fan, apparently!

 

[itso 7]

So you're saying that Mou, LVG and Moyes have no clue about football?

If you make the club spend 30m pounds on a player you proceed to freeze out without giving them a fair chance well yeah you are clueless, the less said about Moyes the better looking at his recent record. I don't know what it is about the United job that makes competent people lose their shit the moment we hire them.

 

[devilish]

If you make the club spend 30m pounds on a player you proceed to freeze out without giving them a fair chance well yeah you are clueless, the less said about Moyes the better looking at his recent record. I don't know what it is about the United job that makes competent people lose their shit the moment we hire them.

I don't think that he frozen out Mkhitaryan. He's been struggling with injuries and form.

 

[itso 7]

I don't think that he frozen out Mkhitaryan. He's been struggling with injuries and form.

You only gain fitness and form through playing, its not as if we haven't had the games to give him minutes to find his feet.

 

[sunama]

Out of interest, another negative record, of sorts was set yesterday.
It seems that we lose heavily every 5 years or so and it looks like yesterday was it for us.
Crazy to think that despite having Moyes and LVG, Jose managed to get the heaviest league defeat.

 

[Vilev]

The blame doesn't necessarily fit the same way if you have the proper insight to judge though. Did Smalling play injured today e.g.?

Once again, if Smalling was injured and Mou did not know about it, he is a moron and is simply not fit to be a manager really. If he did know and decided to play him anyway then it's a manager's mistake and a manager's fault. If Jose did not have enough cover then it's still manager's since he did not plan recruiting properly.

 

[devilish]

You only gain fitness and form through playing, its not as if we haven't had the games to give him minutes to find his feet.

Look, we don't know what had happened about Miki. I refuse to believe that we frozen out a winger whom Mou bought in the first place without even giving him a sniff of first team football. If its the case, then Mou should be shot at. I doubt it though. I means his 'replacement' are Lingard, Young and a striker on the flanks.

 

[#07]

Out of interest, another negative record, of sorts was set yesterday.
It seems that we lose heavily every 5 years or so and it looks like yesterday was it for us.
Crazy to think that despite having Moyes and LVG, Jose managed to get the heaviest league defeat.

In all of those seasons we finished with the highest points total in the Premier League. 2011/12 we lost the league on goal difference, in the others we were champions.

I'm really not that worried about yesterday's result. I've seen United lose 6-3 to Southampton and blame a grey kit! Every so often we have bad results. It happens.

The important thing is we're only six points off the top with 29 to play. Way too early for people to be losing their minds.

 

[flappyjay]

You can blame Smalling all you want for the loss but at the end of the day we lost 4-0 not 4-2/4-3. What it shows that we didn't have the necessary tools to attack them at all, the fact that we still rely on Valencia to create chances is quiet sad. Mata has been in great form over the past few weeks and he starts on the bench. We could have conceded from from a brilliant piece of play and still have not recovered because our attack is not set up right.

I am not saying the players were perfect but the manager gets as much blame for me.

 

[Water Melon]

How come one can even believe that Mou is not to blamed for what happened yesterday. Football is a team sport and it is Mourinho's ultimate resposibility to make his players tick. He bought 4 players this summer, he trains all the players and gives them instructions. I am not for sacking Jose, as I believe he will get it right, however, if we keep on spending tons and win sweet feck all, then he will have to be shown the door.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Few players are indeed 'working' consistently to get another manager sacked. Moyes & LvG trusted some of them and got f*cked in the end and we should also talk about that openly despite Mourinho defending his players like his own family. Sacking him in a distant future would mean these half professionals are taking over the club. Not a fan of Mourinho from obvious rivalry reasons in the past but when he's not in his grumpy moods he's a brilliant guy, one of the brightest and cunning managers in this sport.

In a club with similar structure wage to R.Madrid he can easily expect more from them and punish flub-ups like every other boss. Choice belongs to him but he'll be risking a lot by just standing there and tolerating results like these.

The easiest thing now is to blame him and I totally get that but he should get at least one full season in peace just like LvG had and despite few players totally ignoring his instructions managed to scoop FA Cup somehow. (Thank You, Jesse Lingard )

 

[Coops73]

In all of those seasons we finished with the highest points total in the Premier League. 2011/12 we lost the league on goal difference, in the others we were champions.

I'm really not that worried about yesterday's result. I've seen United lose 6-3 to Southampton and blame a grey kit! Every so often we have bad results. It happens.

The important thing is we're only six points off the top with 29 to play. Way too early for people to be losing their minds.

Couldn't agree more, yes it was embarrassing, those kind of defeats are but like you say 6-3 to Southampton and 5-0 to Newcastle back in the day and I believe we still won the league, yes it's a different kettle of fish these days, yes it's arguably tougher now than ever before but I really don't think this result will define our season, its way to early.

 

[Sammyjunn]

What puzzles me is that at United, people always talk about giving the manager time. Get to know the players etc. Which is fine....

But why is it so much more difficult at United than at other clubs ?

Pochettino, Koeman, Conte, Guardiola, Puel, even Klopp last season....why can they improve the team in a short period of time - while Mourinho can't despite signing Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Zlatan and Bailly.

Conte has taken Chelsea from losers to champion contenders in 2 months....Mourinho has certainly not taken us in the right direction so far. Of course this can change....but with the kind of football he wants us to play, I doubt it will happen

Thisx100! It's just a stupid excuse to let your manager get away with everything for the first few months. Being new doesnt mean you should make a mess.

 

[what a mess]

For the love of God, we have been through tough fixtures. We are just 6 points off the top. Look at this manager, is he happy to lose? No. Is he throwing his players under the bus? No. I still trust this man.
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=ManUtd

To an extent I agree , but the "6 points off the top argument just doesn't hold water as we are also......
4 points off the top 4
And only 1 point ahead of Southampton and 2 points ahead of Bournemouth and Watford and 3 ahead of Palace who were all supposed to be relegation fodder
Puts things into perspective a bit doesn't it ?

We are lucky that City , Arsenal , Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea have all been inconsistent but of those teams 2 have already beaten us and another dominated us in a 0-0 draw

 

[ghagua]

The manager picks the squad, coaches them, picks the team and chooses the tactics, of course he should be held responsible. He should not be held responsible for some of the individual feck ups by some of the players, but he should he held responsible for not having a decent attacking plan in place even with all the attacking talent available.

 

[ghagua]

What puzzles me is that at United, people always talk about giving the manager time. Get to know the players etc. Which is fine....

But why is it so much more difficult at United than at other clubs ?

Pochettino, Koeman, Conte, Guardiola, Puel, even Klopp last season....why can they improve the team in a short period of time - while Mourinho can't despite signing Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Zlatan and Bailly.

Conte has taken Chelsea from losers to champion contenders in 2 months....Mourinho has certainly not taken us in the right direction so far. Of course this can change....but with the kind of football he wants us to play, I doubt it will happen

This!. We even had funny titles in the Klopp thread despite him not buying any of his own players.

 

[SER19]

I'm sorry. But I disagree. Sure the club is responsible for hiring a manager who failed miserably just a few months back and agreeing to said manager's requests to sign players for their reputation over their value or capacity to help the club.

- The manager is insisting on playing a 30+ year old to lead the line, when we know said striker has : a) been rather poor vs good opposition b) poor versus english opposition c) been poor when it matters d) is clearly the definition of a flat-track bully.

- The manager is totally ignoring two young attacking talents that proved they can do the business in this premier league : Martial (a sub after what he did for us last season is just a shame) and Rashford, who is a nightmare for any centre-back to mark.

- I understand the manager claims to have given the players more freedom, to be able to act on instinct. But it is starting to look like we work on nothing at training. There is no setup when we get in the final third, and generally no game-plan to open-up a sitting defence.

- Sure the players are not perfect, but we don't have a manager that will get them to raise their game. In fact barring Herrera (who is reveling in this chaos theory of a plan), which of our players look better this season than last? Are they learning anything? Are they going to improve under this management?

As we can't fire twenty-some players on the fly, it is up to the manager to come-up with an attacking plan so they atleast don't look clueless the way they did this sunday or are we now doomed to repeat the Liverpool performance everytime we play decent opposition : sit-back and wait for their mistakes.

I agree with pretty much all you said to at least an extent. But my initial post was criticising the posters almost exclusively blaming him/saying he's finished etc, it infuriates me that this is the third manager these players have completely let down. They are getting away with absolute murder

 

[Lay]

Blaming the manager for a few mistakes is fine. But I think we have a deep rooted problem at the club. Our players haven't been a cohesive unit for quite some time. Even in Fergie's last year we didn't really click that much despite winning the league. I'm not sure what the problem is but there's been a lack of unity between all the phases of the positional set up.

 

[Drz]

I agree with pretty much all you said to at least an extent. But my initial post was criticising the posters almost exclusively blaming him/saying he's finished etc, it infuriates me that this is the third manager these players have completely let down. They are getting away with absolute murder

Oh yes, individual mistakes have been very costly for us. And I was pointing to that during Van Gaal tenure, but when I thought to look for it in other teams: it was present too, Barca, both Madrids, the difference was (imo) in the head. After a mistake someone was always there to clean up, but more importantly the "will" to take a risk did not decrease. They were confident. It has been the one underlying issue that has poisoned this club since Moyes touched it. You look at Van Gaal's beginning, the pre-season, the first few games about up to MK Don debacle, the players believed for a while, but then "poufff the magic dragon" and we are back to looking scared at slightest chance conceded (even if it isn't converted).

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

What puzzles me is that at United, people always talk about giving the manager time. Get to know the players etc. Which is fine....

But why is it so much more difficult at United than at other clubs ?

Pochettino, Koeman, Conte, Guardiola, Puel, even Klopp last season....why can they improve the team in a short period of time - while Mourinho can't despite signing Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Zlatan and Bailly.

Conte has taken Chelsea from losers to champion contenders in 2 months....Mourinho has certainly not taken us in the right direction so far. Of course this can change....but with the kind of football he wants us to play, I doubt it will happen

Having money is actually turning out to be a disadvantage for United managers because the expectations are just too high. Klopp finished 7th in the league last season,Poch came into his own only in the second season and still finished 3rd at the end,Conte got hammered by Arsenal & Liverpool while Pep hasn't won a game since the 24th of September. Maybe give the manager sometime to see how it goes before writing him off.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

The day I have a melt down and start trying to drum up dissent 9 games into a new season with a new management regime working with players for the first time with a lack of a games in pre-season and a single transfer window is the day that I give up on life.

 

[royboy16]

If we loose the next 3 games will the knives be out ?
I think he might get a draw against City tomorrow mind.

 

[sunama]

The day I have a melt down and start trying to drum up dissent 9 games into a new season with a new management regime working with players for the first time with a lack of a games in pre-season and a single transfer window is the day that I give up on life.

Yep. It is insane that some people are on the verge of "Jose Out!", after 9 league games.
Absolutely shocking.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

If we loose the next 3 games will the knives be out ?
I think he might get a draw against City tomorrow mind.

Oh God I hope not, the last thing we need is an extra match thrown in with our fixture list what with 3 matches per week already. We need to kill them off with home advantage. If we play like we did in the second half against them in the league game then we have a good chance.

 

[Snow]

Personally I think a manager should always be given at least half a season before evaluating him. There's just so much that can go wrong in the beginning of a manager's tenure.

 

[Jaybomb]

It's not Mourinho's fault De Gea came racing out of his line for the first goal.

The rest of the goals were Smalling's fault. Mourinho needs to seriously drop him. He's a liability and a donkey. He lacks a footballing brain.

Get Rojo in the Starting 11 as a CB. He played well when he came on. But whats this rubbish with playing Blind as a CB and Rojo as a LB? It should be the other way around. We definitely need to buy a CB in January... Van Dijk or Fonte or someone.

 

[Stack]

Blaming the manager for a few mistakes is fine. But I think we have a deep rooted problem at the club. Our players haven't been a cohesive unit for quite some time. Even in Fergie's last year we didn't really click that much despite winning the league. I'm not sure what the problem is but there's been a lack of unity between all the phases of the positional set up.

Isnt that the responsibility of the manager?

 

[Lay]

Isnt that the responsibility of the manager?

It is. But it's gone back a few seasons now. There has to be something fundamentally wrong if Moyes, LVG and Mourinho couldn't address it. Fergie also had it but we had a genuine match winner at his peak to bail us out of games we were dominated in.

Maybe it's a player issue too. Our turnover of players has been quite huge in the past 4 years and that probably hasn't helped despite a lot of deadwood being rightfully moved on.

Mourinho who so far has underwhelmed needs to figure out how to set up a balanced team. Something we just can't seem to produce. Our midfield is quite easy to bypass despite having decent to good midfielders.

We have so much pointless slow possession. Whenever we try to speed it up it seems the players are incapable of a good first touch in the right direction or they take a touch too many and it inevitably peters out.

 

[Turnip]

It is. But it's gone back a few seasons now. There has to be something fundamentally wrong if Moyes, LVG and Mourinho couldn't address it. Fergie also had it but we had a genuine match winner at his peak to bail us out of games we were dominated in.

Maybe it's a player issue too. Our turnover of players has been quite huge in the past 4 years and that probably hasn't helped despite a lot of deadwood being rightfully moved on.

Mourinho who so far has underwhelmed needs to figure out how to set up a balanced team. Something we just can't seem to produce. Our midfield is quite easy to bypass despite having decent to good midfielders.

We have so much pointless slow possession. Whenever we try to speed it up it seems the players are incapable of a good first touch in the right direction or they take a touch too many and it inevitably peters out.

I've been wondering this. I can't see how we can have blamed moyes and lvg for our poor play style but it can't possibly be joses fault when he has the same problem. Let's not forget how awful Chelsea were last season, whatever the reason may be for that.

Either we fired 2 managers for something that apparently wasn't their fault, or were saying Jose hasn't done anything wrong when he's doing exactly what the last 2 did wrong.

But if it is something else, something within the back room or the players not doing something right, isn't that down to the manager to sort out? And the back room staff and the players have changed quite a bit since moyes started.

If it's the players fault, Jose is selecting these players, and it's not like we don't have a deep squad, we have tens of millions of pounds worth of players who haven't touched the pitch this season. And Jose decided to teach shaw a lesson or something and not include him on Sunday. I get that you can't refurbish a whole squad in one transfer window, so that's not his fault, but still, our squad isn't world class, but it isn't that bad either, and it's made worse by us persisting with out of form players, our best player in the wrong position (pogba) and playing players who simply aren't the best in the squad at their position, all of which are definitely joses fault.