Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

[Pintu]

I don't understand why "boycotting the World Cup" would have any value to anyone in this case. The World Cup is for football and for the fans. FIFA gave it to the wrong country. It is better if the fans do everything they would normally do, including going to the games, and also point out what Qatar is doing wrong, and what FIFA did wrong and why. Boycotting is meaningless for this particular case. It is better to make noise and discuss the issues, and complain.

Nobody listens to toothless complaints... Qatar are loosing the PR battle in the West but they are doing all right within the rest of the world. They are actually attracting some sympathy they wouldn’t normally get.


If we are serious, then boycotting entirely is the only way to really force a change. But the morally superior UEFA countries chose not to boycott. They chose to participate entirely. Their media with their top anchors and pundits are there. The big sponsors chose to support this event more than ever… FIFA is going to make more money than in any previous 32-teams WC. (The 48- teams edition should beat that)… this gives the grandstanding talking points of Lineker and the likes far less credibility.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Qatar are loosing the PR battle in the West but they are doing all right within the rest of the world. They are actually attracting some sympathy they wouldn’t normally get.

Indeed. I asked a few of my Colombian friends and they said they'd converted to Islam in solidarity with Qatar.

 

[Cloudface]

It's been a tough one for my folks. They don't like gays or brown people. But they also don't like thinking about things. So the fact that protestors are asking them to rethink the status quo somewhere has unfortunately caused them to side with abusive authoritarians.

 

[Pintu]

Indeed. I asked a few of my Colombian friends and they said they'd converted to Islam in solidarity with Qatar.

What exactly does conversion to Islam (or to any other homophobic religious belief) have to do with what I am saying?

 

[Bert_]

Nobody listens to toothless complaints... Qatar are loosing the PR battle in the West but they are doing all right within the rest of the world. They are actually attracting some sympathy they wouldn’t normally get.


If we are serious, then boycotting entirely is the only way to really force a change. But the morally superior UEFA countries chose not to boycott. They chose to participate entirely. Their media with their top anchors and pundits are there. The big sponsors chose to support this event more than ever… FIFA is going to make more money than in any previous 32-teams WC. (The 48- teams edition should beat that)… this gives the grandstanding talking points of Lineker and the likes far less credibility.

Have you any examples of this you can share? Genuine question. Not a gotcha.

I can imagine some non-western media outlets are at least somewhat supportive of a world cup being held in Qatar due to it being the first Middle Eastern and/or predominantly Muslim country to host it, even if they generally agree with the critism. It would be good to get their take.

I'm sure there will be a few that support it just because western critism = justice but I'd still be interested to have a read of those too if you have come across any.

 

[RedSky]

It's been a tough one for my folks. They don't like gays or brown people. But they also don't like thinking about things. So the fact that protestors are asking them to rethink the status quo somewhere has unfortunately caused them to side with abusive authoritarians.

Oof, im sorry.

 

[Synco]

That’s a great breakdown but we’re at the stage where facts hardly matter hence popularity of such bullshit.

Yes, and it's part of why I've largely opted out of political topics here on the Caf. There's too much reactionary stuff of all sorts normalised, and it's impossible to counter sufficiently. Couldn't help myself this time, as the falsification was so brazen.

This is a sensible post and, to clarify, I was really defending his right to post without silly accusations of "whataboutism". I wasn't aware of the details. Compare what you posted to some of the useless responses to his post.

I actually agree with much of them, including the criticism of whataboutism.

 

[Karmapolice]

But what exactly do you want people to do? Stop voicing their opinion against human rights issues in Qatar? Or only do it if they reference every single other such issue in the world every single time? What is it?

i don't think anyone expects westerners to ever stop talking or giving lectures!

heck, even during the heydays of western colonialsm and chattel slavery they were talking and preaching about white man's burden!
it's just many people in the global south don't buy this sanctimonious attitude anymore.

most of these western countries are actually super consistent about which human rights they ignore and even oppose!

 

[NoLegendary]

You mean like Cantona was being paid by Nike while ignoring their entire business model is based on worker exploitation? Rich.

If we're strict and consitent about who should and who shouldn't be allowed to host tournaments because of human rights violations, I wholeheartedly agree that Qatar shouldn't. But as has been pointed out to death in this very thread, neither should the proponents of the costliest human rights abuses of recent times, including your beloved UK, US and the like.

Problem is that people maintain these obvious double standards, and when its showed in their faces they refuse to acknowledge anything and scream whataboutism. These are valid points being raised and you would do well to have maybe a bit of introspection.

As for the rest of the criticism, laughable. There are plenty of leagues (perhaps even more, who knows) that are disrupted by summer world cups. No, it should not only be held during your summer - thats pure, unadultered western-centric babbel.

And to those minimizing western human rights violations because of the immigrants that seek to live in these countries, give your head a wobble. Not only is this human rights pariah Qatar chock-full of immigrants, it didnt design and implement destructive "foreign policy" that ran entire nations into the ground, thus creating mass exodus to where their resources where shipped to when they were stolen.

Give me a break.

Wow… if only i could give upvotes.
Well said!

 

[Pintu]

Have you any examples of this you can share? Genuine question. Not a gotcha.

I can imagine some non-western media outlets are at least somewhat supportive of a world cup being held in Qatar due to it being the first Middle Eastern and/or predominantly Muslim country to host it, even if they generally agree with the critism. It would be good to get their take.

I'm sure there will be a few that support it just because western critism = justice but I'd still be interested to have a read of those too if you have come across any.

Qatar didn’t enjoy positive press at all in the Middle East recently. The blockade was lifted but there were no Emirati or Saudi tourists coming to Qatar recently... That has changed, thepublic in neighboring countries are thankful to Qatar that they brought the World Cup so close by. The Saudi regime hates Qatar but since the Saudi team qualified to the WC, FIFA and Qatar invested massively in attracting football fans and convince them it will be a great experience. Now the Saudi regime had to play along and send the crown prince to the opening ceremony…

And it might come as a surprise to some of you but the western establishments, most of whom connected to war crimes against civilians in the region, aren’t very popular. So when the western establishment seem to be aiming its propaganda at Qatar the automatic reaction of the masses is “the British says Qatar are wrong, that means Qatar are good. They must be resisting their neo-colonialism.“ You have no idea how much the messenger can destroy their own message just being who they are. It’s unjust, but it’s the way of the world… remember Wikileaks it is now inaudible in Europe, because Assange was revealed to be a bad person, that’s enough. Nobody in the West cares about the horrendous things he uncovered.

 

[bosnian_red]

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Posted in the atmosphere thread but possibly more relevant here. They ban some things, yet allow shit that they aren't probably aware of, even if it's a disgusting political sentiment. cnuts.

 

[Abizzz]

Qatar didn’t enjoy positive press at all in the Middle East recently. The blockade was lifted but there were no Emirati or Saudi tourists coming to Qatar recently... That has changed, thepublic in neighboring countries are thankful to Qatar that they brought the World Cup so close by. The Saudi regime hates Qatar but since the Saudi team qualified to the WC, FIFA and Qatar invested massively in attracting football fans and convince them it will be a great experience. Now the Saudi regime had to play along and send the crown prince to the opening ceremony…

And it might come as a surprise to some of you but the western establishments, most of whom connected to war crimes against civilians in the region, aren’t very popular. So when the western establishment seem to be aiming its propaganda at Qatar the automatic reaction of the masses is “the British says Qatar are wrong, that means Qatar are good. They must be resisting their neo-colonialism.“ You have no idea how much the messenger can destroy their own message just being who they are. It’s unjust, but it’s the way of the world… remember Wikileaks it is now inaudible in Europe, because Assange was revealed to be a bad person, that’s enough. Nobody in the West cares about the horrendous things he uncovered.

So you are saying we should never listen to any opinion coming out of the middle east because of past crimes committed by the people of the middle east?

It's not like the west is the only one to ever commit atrocities ...

 

[Levi1]

Why does world football let FIFA still run everything? Genuine question here. Is it just that people can't be bothered to self-organize a competing structure? For example, the world cup is just 3 weeks of football games: just arrange to have them played whenever you like. You wouldn't even have to sell the rights since, if I recall correctly, the players aren't paid for it anyway.

 

[Karmapolice]

So you are saying we should never listen to any opinion coming out of the middle east because of past crimes committed by the people of the middle east?

It's not like the west is the only one to ever commit atrocities ...

on this scale? yes you actually were the only ones!

 

[Abizzz]

on this scale? yes you actually were the only ones!

 

[Rhyme Animal]

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[Still ill]

I've only sifted through a sample of the swampy morass that is this and every other political thread in here. I get the moral outrage of us westerners, also the outrage at us westerners for being morally outraged, the absolute neck of us. Is there anyone defending the position of Qatar in relation to LBGTQ+ issues, migrant workers, women etc as opposed to just being pissed off at the sanctimonious nature of the disapproval ? If so, could somebody kindly direct me to the post/ poster(s)?

 

[tomaldinho1]

I've only sifted through a sample of the swampy morass that is this and every other political thread in here. I get the moral outrage of us westerners, also the outrage at us westerners for being morally outraged, the absolute neck of us. Is there anyone defending the position of Qatar in relation to LBGTQ+ issues, migrant workers, women etc as opposed to just being pissed off at the sanctimonious nature of the disapproval ? If so, could somebody kindly direct me to the post/ poster(s)?

Candidly whilst none will admit it directly, it’s safe to assume the posters who think ‘their house, their rules’ probably are of that mindset at least in some respect and know they’re in the wrong - hence why no one will actually just outright agree with Qatar, they’ll subvert the argument to become ‘anti West’.

 

[calodo2003]

Yeah, how dare anyone who happens to live in the West (whether they support or protest their own governments) voice disapproval over this.

And while people in here are careful to avoid saying that they are hateful homophobes, there are people in here who essentially agree with this…

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Gotta respect the culture.

 

[Pintu]

Candidly whilst none will admit it directly, it’s safe to assume the posters who think ‘their house, their rules’ probably are of that mindset at least in some respect and know they’re in the wrong - hence why no one will actually just outright agree with Qatar, they’ll subvert the argument to become ‘anti West’.

Are you saying that all those who cry “whataboutery“ at every nuanced criticism of the West’s ongoing PR entreprise are actually supporters of the war crimes and other human rights abuses committed by western powers? And since they know they are in the wrong they will just cry “whataboutery” instead of acknowledging that the West has no moral high ground to stand and lecture others.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Are you saying that all those who cry “whataboutery“ at every nuanced criticism of the West’s ongoing PR entreprise are actually supporters of the war crimes and other human rights abuses committed by western powers? And since they know they are in the wrong they will just cry “whataboutery” instead of acknowledging that the West has no moral high ground to stand and lecture others.

I mean, I quite clearly wrote posters using the ‘their house their rules’ argument. Not sure how you could have missed that unless, as it appears to me, you just wanted to try and start an argument based on you being deliberately misleading…

Re whataboutery, those posters are just either deliberately derailing (which is whataboutery’s greatest strength) or are somewhat dimwitted. I don’t know a single person who believes it to be a constructive or useful way of debating anything.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

every nuanced criticism of the West’s ongoing PR entreprise.

I don't think your criticism in this thread has been very nuanced. It has mostly come across as disingenous. You have spent your time here trying to paint a picture of gay people having it worse in the West than in Qatar.

I believe we are underestimating the magnitude of homophobia in some segments of Western society, specially in football.

Yes it is homophobic [chanting]. And it is also much more common in European football than it is in the Middle Eastern stadiums…. Where it’s almost inexistant.

I don't think people over there (even though homophobia is more widespread than in the West) like to expose their homophobia in public the way many football fans do over here. And I don't believe the homophobic regime of Qatar -with its homophobic laws – approves of homophobic chants.

Gay people in Qatar are de facto forced to hide their sexuality, but for those who accept that condition, life is pretty much as normal as it could be. (Not excusing this, just stating the fact people do not come out, just like we have this closet culture in many communities in the West, including the football community).

There are definitely many more hate crimes and violence against LGBT people in progressive countries than there is in Qatar.

Conversion therapy is actually more wide spread in the USA than in these conservative Muslim countries. In places like Qatar homophobic parents are less likely to admit they have a gay kid "in need" of conversion to begin with.

Even though you claim you are not excusing Qatar forcing gay people to stay in the closet, it is very hard to read these posts as anything other than "it is better to stay in the closet in Qatar than to be an openly gay person in the West."

 

[moses]

I've only sifted through a sample of the swampy morass that is this and every other political thread in here. I get the moral outrage of us westerners, also the outrage at us westerners for being morally outraged, the absolute neck of us. Is there anyone defending the position of Qatar in relation to LBGTQ+ issues, migrant workers, women etc as opposed to just being pissed off at the sanctimonious nature of the disapproval ? If so, could somebody kindly direct me to the post/ poster(s)?

No, and that's the point nobody is making.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Is there anyone defending the position of Qatar in relation to LBGTQ+ issues, migrant workers, women etc as opposed to just being pissed off at the sanctimonious nature of the disapproval ?

No, of course not, God (ahem) forbid.

They're just pointing out the hypocrisy. There isn't a single iota of anything even remotely homophobic in it. Honestly.

 

[Pintu]

I don't think your criticism in this thread has been very nuanced. It has mostly come across as disingenous. You have spent your time here trying to paint a picture of gay people having it worse in the West than in Qatar.

Saying homophobic chants are far more common in Western stadiums and that some aspects of homophobia (like conversion therapy) are more common here doesn't equate to saying gay people having it worse here. That was a response to a specific post tackling some specific points. Again, I'd definitely rather be gay in the Western Europe than be gay in any other place in the World (And Qatar is certainly among the very last places I'd pick). I think that's obvious.


My main argument is still this:

The point could be:

"it is a shame German Football Association are hypocrites, hence untrustworthy, which is bound to make their rightful pro-LGBT stance inaudible..."

But I do not believe for 1 second that any of the 7 European association involved will correct their behavior to become more trustworthy outside our European bubble, which would make them a good ally to the LGBT activists worldwide... I don't expect it because it is not sincere. I see this as an opportunistic PR campaign for domestic virtue signaling, nothing more.

As I told you before:

That’s probably true for some. It’s definitely not my position. And not that of most here. I‘m happy to see the hypocrite Europeans shed some light on the abuses by Qatari regime (at least until there is a threat of a yellow card..). And I wish some of the other football association would be brave enough -hypocrite enough- to speak up about European/Western war crimes (because let’s face it Europeans will not do it)… The gullibility of our public opinion here is shameful and we need it to be confronted every now and then.

 

[MackRobinson]

I actually agree with much of them, including the criticism of whataboutism.

What you bolded was referring to the difference between explaining why you don't think it's inaccurate vs labeling it a whataboutism (which it isn't and I won't continually rehash why)

 

[MUnchies]

I'm not sure you understand that word. How was the poster being hypocritical?

Keane, my original post was Keane being a hypocrite.

But why do you think Keane is a hypocrite? I think it is more honest for a journalist or a pundit to actually go to Qatar and tell them to their face that they should not have organized the World Cup and that their laws are retarded. This is more brave, and more impactful, than just staying home and doing podcasts that nobody will listen to.

Let's all agree to disagree. I believe he is a hypocrite you guys think otherwise, we move.

 

[Synco]

What you bolded was referring to the difference between explaining why you don't think it's inaccurate vs labeling it a whataboutism (which it isn't and I won't continually rehash why)

Not sure I understand (or it's a typo), my whole post was about why I *do* think it's inaccurate. My reply to you meant to say it's unnecessary to seperate me from those you dismissed, as I agree with them that it's textbook whataboutism. (Aggravated actually, as it's using made up events.)

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Keane, my original post was Keane being a hypocrite.

Yes, your point was (unless I'm mistaken) that Keane is a hypocrite for speaking out against certain aspects of this World Cup (which takes place in Qatar) whilst being, himself, in Qatar, at the World Cup, as a pundit for a British network covering the World Cup.

 

[MUnchies]

Your point is just completely idiotic though.

Going to qatar (or anywhere) to commentate on a WC doesn’t equal, ‘I agree with the shitty things this country does and / or I will not mention those things’.

Let me ask you this - do you think that news reporters who travel to other countries in order to critique the goings on there are also hypocritical because they get paid for doing so? Or because they spend money staying in hotels there?

Think about it - the penny might drop.

Are you ok? Do I have to agree with you on everything? I can agree with his message and disagree with his way of portraying it. Get off your high horse. For some weird reason in your mind I have to agree with you no matter what, my stance might not make sense to you same way yours doesn't make sense to me. Get over it and move on.

Comparing a Journalist/news reporters to a sports commentator is laughable

 

[Pintu]

Yes, your point was (unless I'm mistaken) that Keane is a hypocrite for speaking out against certain aspects of this World Cup (which takes place in Qatar) whilst being, himself, in Qatar, at the World Cup, as a pundit for a British network covering the World Cup.

A "British network paying millions to FIFA to finance this event and contributing to give it as big a following as possible."

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Are you ok? Do I have to agree with you on everything? I can agree with his message and disagree with his way of portraying it. Get off your high horse. For some weird reason in your mind I have to agree with you no matter what, my stance might not make sense to you same way yours doesn't make sense to me. Get over it and move on.

Comparing a Journalist/news reporters to a sports commentator is laughable

I’m not saying you must agree with me.

I’m saying that your point is either completely and utterly nonsensical, or that you don’t really have a point and are actually trying to derail the conversation.

Hope that’s clear my friend

 

[MUnchies]

I’m not saying you must agree with me.

I’m saying that your point is either completely and utterly nonsensical, or that you don’t really have a point and are actually trying to derail the conversation.

Hope that’s clear my friend

You had your way growing up I can tell because it's hard for you when someone doesn't agree with you. You way or the highway huh?
I’m also saying that your point is either completely and utterly nonsensical, or that you don’t really have a point and are actually trying to derail the conversation.

Why did you even comment on my post when I wasn't interacting with you? So with that in mind, move on geeshh

 

[Chesterlestreet]

A "British network paying millions to FIFA to finance this event and contributing to give it as big a following as possible."

Do you think that ITV should not cover the World Cup in Qatar? Is that your point?

 

[MUnchies]

Also, do you think it would be better for the journalists and pundits who’ve gone to qatar to simply not voice any thought that goes against the government oppression there? Just so we’re clear, where do you stand on that point?

Journalism one is actually going there with the sole purpose of exposing Qatar's ethics so its different from a sports commentator who's main purpose is to go commentate on a game and analyze. Journalist actually go to deprived and struggling countries and experience how the people live and what they are going through even if they have to sleep in tents, eat military foods or drink dirty water. I bet you Keane is in a 5 stay Hotel being serviced by the migrant workers.

With sports commentators/pundits I believe those who were against the world cup in Qatar could have voiced their opinions without going there.
I won't contribute a penny to Russia's economy even if I am being paid millions to go work there for a day because I don't like their beliefs and I will let that be known exactly where I am.

And I don't agree with the "he will reach more audience because he is in Qatar" because every country has it's own broadcasting station pretty much. USA is Fox, Most countries in Africa is Super sports, most Spanish countries is Telemundo etc. Most on here don't even know what Keane said and I wouldn't have if not for someone posting it in here.

 

[phelans shorts]

Journalism one is actually going there with the sole purpose of exposing Qatar's ethics so its different from a sports commentator who's main purpose is to go commentate on a game and analyze. Journalist actually go to deprived and struggling countries and experience how the people live and what they are going through even if they have to sleep in tents, eat military foods or drink dirty water. I bet you Keane is in a 5 stay Hotel being serviced by the migrant workers.

With sports commentators/pundits I believe those who were against the world cup in Qatar could have voiced their opinions without going there.
I won't contribute a penny to Russia's economy even if I am being paid millions to go work there for a day because I don't like their beliefs and I will let that be known exactly where I am.

And I don't agree with the "he will reach more audience because he is in Qatar" because every country has it's own broadcasting station pretty much. USA is Fox, Most countries in Africa is Super sports, most Spanish countries is Telemundo etc. Most on here don't even know what Keane said and I wouldn't have if not for someone posting it in here.

This line of thinking doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny either though. Who were the ones talking and making a point about the 1936 Olympics for instance? Sports journalists. They stated their opposition to facism before, during and after and stopped what was intended to be worldwide propaganda for the Nazi party.

 

[VidaRed]

Keane is off his rocker. End off.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I can't work out if I am boycotting or just not interested enough to watch any games so far.

England vs USA game is the first time I have watched a full 90 mins.

I've probably watched 1 hour in total of other games. Mine is definately through boredom though international football just doesn't do it for me.

 

[Pintu]

I withdrew everything I said about this being a pure PR stint. Kane really does care.

A monumental gesture that will no doubt advance LGBT rights massively.

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[68cob]

England vs USA game is the first time I have watched a full 90 mins.

Hang on, is the BBC iPlayer an hour behind or something?