Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

GifLord

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Seems like some of you will sadly never get it
 

Pintu

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Please tell us more about current or ongoing European/Western war crimes, @Pintu :nervous:
Do you really need me to tell you about current/ongoing European participation and complicity in different war crimes and human rights abuses?
 

Abizzz

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Do you really need me to tell you about current/ongoing European participation and complicity in different war crimes and human rights abuses?
Probably not but I still need you to tell me who proclaimed themselves human rights champion ?
 

MackRobinson

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Just because you keep saying this, it doesn't make it true. You even say: 'But b/c we all understand the implications of the picture, we scream whataboutism'...so you acknowledge that the tacit implication is 'well what about this situation?' To make it really simple for you:

Whataboutism: the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

Does that clear things up?! Or do you still not accept that posting that picture was raising a different issue?

I'd save your embarrassment on my behalf...the way you've been going in this thread you'll need it all for yourself.
The implication as in the meaning of the picture (ie. what it implies). And you do realize one can express a tangential opinion that's not an argument, right? This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

Exactly what was the question or accusation he was responding to? I'll wait. Just admit you had no idea what the word meant so we can move on. It's ok to be wrong.
 

MUnchies

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Then why the shitting crikey are you clearly more riled up about Keane using his platform to point these things out than you are about the things themselves? Think about that properly before going off any further.

Doesn’t that make YOU the hypocrite?

Also, you have absolutely no idea about what Keane or any pundit is doing with their wages (money from from ITV / BBC - NOT QATAR), for all you know the guy could be donating every penny to support migrant workers or persecuted gays in qatar.

Think on.
I am riled up? Ok. You don't make sense still but go on
Don't bother replying
 

Rhyme Animal

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I am riled up? Ok. You don't make sense still but go on
Don't bother replying
Your entire ‘point’ is supposedly that you can’t stand the ‘hypocrisy’ of pundits voicing their dislike of the oppression of gays and free speech and the mistreatment of migrant workers.

Yet, you also claim that there’s ‘NOTHING WORSE than the oppression of minority groups’…

Thus, you are clearly being, at best, a hypocritical pedant, and, at worse, an obvious troll.

So, which is it? Which is more worthy of your ire?

A. Roy Keane for speaking against the behaviour of the qatar government, or

B. The behaviour of the qatar government?

Which bothers you more? A, or B?
 

Pintu

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Probably not but I still need you to tell me who proclaimed themselves human rights champion ?
It’s a figure of speech but I meant the 7 associations from “the UEFA Working Group on Human and Labour Rights” that said they will make their captains wear One love armbands, until it become too risky. Yellow card risky for them to stand up for gay rights.

They said in their statement among other great things that “Human rights are universal and they apply everywhere”. We both know they don’t mean that. And now we’ve learned that even in the places where human rights apply (like in Qatar) they are not worth a yellow card.
 
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MUnchies

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Your entire ‘point’ is supposedly that you can’t stand the ‘hypocrisy’ of pundits voicing their dislike of the oppression of gays and free speech and the mistreatment of migrant workers.

Yet, you also claim that there’s ‘NOTHING WORSE than the oppression of minority groups’…

Thus, you are clearly being, at best, a hypocritical pedant, and, at worse, an obvious troll.

So, which is it? Which is more worthy of your ire?

A. Roy Keane for speaking against the behaviour of the qatar government, or

B. The behaviour of the qatar government?

Which bothers you more? A, or B?
Are you ignoring me saying my only issue is Keane being in Qatar himself saying the world cup shouldn't be there?
Keane could have been in UK and stated his disgust about Qatar just like many pundits are doing but you keep ignoring that. It's like you want me to be ok with Qatar's belief. Weird.

I have already stated my stance, you can play mental gymnastics to disagree with me. I know what I believe in
 

Abizzz

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It’s a figure of speech but I meant the 7 associations from “the UEFA Working Group on Human and Labour Rights” that said they will make their captains wear One love armbands, until it become too risky. Yellow card risky for them to stand up for gay rights.

They said in their statement among other great things that “Human rights are universal and they apply everywhere”. We both know they don’t mean that. And now we’ve learned that even in the places where human rights apply (like in Qatar) they are not worth a yellow card.
First off thanks for the clarification.

I'll take your "figure of speech" as somehow meaning something else than what I understand it to mean then.

However on your last point, I don't know that. For me they are universal, they can only be impinged upon. That some people have their human rights impinged doesn't make them any less universal. The only ones I could possible exclude is any nation that declined to be part of the convention or abstained. However while I acknowledge this I don't respect it because I don't respect the regimes that decided to decline or abstain (i.e authoritarian countries).
 

Pickle85

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The implication as in the meaning of the picture (ie. what it implies). And you do realize one can express a tangential opinion that's not an argument, right? This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

Exactly what was the question or accusation he was responding to? I'll wait. Just admit you had no idea what the word meant so we can move on. It's ok to be wrong.
Can you direct me to where I implied it was an argument, please? I'll wait. Or is that just a non sequitur.

The poster was clearly responding to the criticism directed by the German national team at the 'censoring'. Or do you think it was just a random cartoon that could have been posted in any thread?
 

Pintu

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First off thanks for the clarification.

I'll take your "figure of speech" as somehow meaning something else than what I understand it to mean then.

However on your last point, I don't know that. For me they are universal, they can only be impinged upon. That some people have their human rights impinged doesn't make them any less universal. The only ones I could possible exclude is any nation that declined to be part of the convention or abstained. However while I acknowledge this I don't respect it because I don't respect the regimes that decided to decline or abstain (i.e authoritarian countries).
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I say, "They don't mean that". The "they" refers again to the 7 associations. I don't believe for one second that the aforementioned associations intend to speak up on human rights abuses when they participate in sporting events in other places. And I don't believe they are sincere about "labor rights" given the contracts they have with different brands that use modern slavery in the Asian sweatshops.
 

Abizzz

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Maybe I wasn't clear enough. When I say, "They don't mean that". The "they" refers again to the 7 associations. I don't believe for one second that the aforementioned associations intend to speak up on human rights abuses when they participate in sporting events in other places. And I don't believe they are sincere about "labor rights" given the contracts they have with different brands that use modern slavery in the Asian sweatshops.
Again, thanks for the needed (on my part) clarification. And while I don't agree with your view I can at least understand it now.
 

MackRobinson

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Can you direct me to where I implied it was an argument, please? I'll wait. Or is that just a non sequitur.
Yes. By claiming the use of a whataboutism. If not, this is an entirely pointless conversation.

The poster was clearly responding to the criticism directed by the German national team at the 'censoring'. Or do you think it was just a random cartoon that could have been posted in any thread?
Unsurprisingly missing the point. Has there not been numerous tangential issues discussed in this thread? Posting a picture that expresses an opinion loosely related to the topic is not whataboutism, especially given the medium. You're just so eager to shut down any opinions that don't fit with whatever narrative you're so desperately fighting for in this thread.
 

Pickle85

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Yes. By claiming the use of a whataboutism. If not, this is an entirely pointless conversation.


Unsurprisingly missing the point. Has there not been numerous tangential issues discussed in this thread? Posting a picture that expresses an opinion loosely related to the topic is not whataboutism, especially given the medium. You're just so eager to shut down any opinions that don't fit with whatever narrative you're so desperately fighting for in this thread.
Yet again, there doesn't have to be a specific line of 'argument' involved for something to qualify as a whataboutism. Do you understand that?

We're not getting anywhere here, are we? You asked me what the poster was responding to with that image, I told you, and you now fudge by bringing the 'medium' of the message into it. It's perfectly clear, as I said, that that image was posted in response to the German national team's symbolic gesture. Do you agree or disagree with that? If you agree, then you must see how that is whataboutism. If not, you're either stubborn or dense. I imagine the former.

In terms of the narrative you say I'm desperately fighting for: what, in your eyes, is that?
 

Rhyme Animal

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In an attempt to save these threads from the toxic direction they’re being wilfully taken in - mods, what is the forum stance on whataboutism? Derailing threads is a no no, does whataboutism fall under that? And if not, maybe it should.

Everyone’s free to start a new thread on any given topic, so it’s not censorship.

@moses @Raoul @Wibble
 

Pintu

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In terms of the narrative you say I'm desperately fighting for: what, in your eyes, is that?
We have 2 lines here:

One that consider the European associations involved to be a bunch of hypocrites pretending to care about LGBT rights in some PR campaign.

One that considers these associations to be genuinely progressive and that they do care about Human rights (maybe they don't want to take a yellow card... But they care, and we are proud of them).

It seems you fall into the latter group.
 

Polar

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Do you really need me to tell you about current/ongoing European participation and complicity in different war crimes and human rights abuses?
Yes.. Tell me about European participation. I also look forward to read your definition of participation and war crime. Is the weapon industry a war crime?
 

MackRobinson

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Yet again, there doesn't have to be a specific line of 'argument' involved for something to qualify as a whataboutism. Do you understand that?

We're not getting anywhere here, are we? You asked me what the poster was responding to with that image, I told you, and you now fudge by bringing the 'medium' of the message into it. It's perfectly clear, as I said, that that image was posted in response to the German national team's symbolic gesture. Do you agree or disagree with that? If you agree, then you must see how that is whataboutism. If not, you're either stubborn or dense. I imagine the former.

In terms of the narrative you say I'm desperately fighting for: what, in your eyes, is that?
Whataboutism is a variant of the appeal to hypocrisy logical fallacy. What are logical fallacies? Deductive arguments. You sure seem more focused on semantics than the topic at hand.

I specifically asked what's the accusation or question. You brought up the German national team censorship. That's a topic, not an accusation or question. It clearly happened and I haven't seen anyone argue or question that it didn't. The medium matters because you fail to acknowledge that this is a thread with many loosely related conversations taking place and that it's silly to brand the ones you don't like as whataboutisms.

If want to call me dense or stupid just do it directly. No need to be coy and dance around it like some sort of coward. It's the internet and I've been called worse on this forum. Nothing will happen.
 

Pickle85

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Whataboutism is a variant of the appeal to hypocrisy logical fallacy. What are logical fallacies? Deductive arguments. You sure seem more focused on semantics than the topic at hand.

I specifically asked what's the accusation or question. You brought up the German national team censorship. That's a topic, not an accusation or question. It clearly happened and I haven't seen anyone argue or question that it didn't. The medium matters because you fail to acknowledge that this is a thread with many loosely related conversations taking place and that it's silly to brand the ones you don't like as whataboutisms.

If want to call me dense or stupid just do it directly. No need to be coy and dance around it like some sort of coward. It's the internet and I've been called worse on this forum. Nothing will happen.
You're right, this was cheap. I was getting frustrated and I apologize for that. No need for it.
 

stevoc

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Keane could start his own podcast or sports show in UK and people will tune in and that's facts. He doesn't have to go Qatar to get his voice heard.
Again he could have but he wouldn't have reached nearly as big an audience as he has done on live national TV on ITV.

Again you haven't answered my question.
Eh, which question was that again?

Isn't Keane helping their economy by paying for flight, hotel, food etc? How is that not hypocrisy
I doubt the economy of Qatar is relying on the hotel and food revenue of Roy Keane.

Just so we're on the same page here, help me understand what you're a bit upset here mate. Do you agree with Roy's message on Qatar but feel his apparent hypocrisy undermines that? Or do you just dislike that he's criticising Qatar?
 

MUnchies

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Again he could have but he wouldn't have reached nearly as big an audience as he has done on live national TV on ITV.



Eh, which question was that again?



I doubt the economy of Qatar is relying on the hotel and food revenue of Roy Keane.

Just so we're on the same page here, help me understand what you're a bit upset here mate. Do you agree with Roy's message on Qatar but feel his apparent hypocrisy undermines that? Or do you just dislike that he's criticising Qatar?
Just going round and round and round. Car crash of a thread.
On ignore
 

Rhyme Animal

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Maybe he learned more about the situation there and changed his mind?

Wouldn’t that be totally understandable and natural?

Isn’t it GOOD to be fluid of thought and open to new information, rather than ‘I said / read this once, so now it’s a fact’?

It’s starting to get very troubling how so many people seem more motivated by pedantry than by compassion for other humans suffering.
 

Giggsyking

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Maybe he learned more about the situation there and changed his mind?

Wouldn’t that be totally understandable and natural?

Isn’t it GOOD to be fluid of thought and open to new information, rather than ‘I said / read this once, so now it’s a fact’?

It’s starting to get very troubling how so many people seem more motivated by pedantry than by compassion for other humans suffering.
I bet his learning curve is bell shaped, it will flatten out again at the next world cup. Peaked only in 2022.
 

JustAGuest

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It is better to be a little hypocritical while increasing net good than to be perfectly consistent at doing jack shit.

That is the problem with the accusations that get called "whataboutism" here. When people here say "why don't you support this and not that?" they are not actually asking you to support this and that. They are just asking you to shut up.
Well said.
 

Scandi Red

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It's early days still, but I wonder if Qatar regret their decision now? The negative publicity has to be way worse than they expected and the viewership numbers in some European countries are absolutely terrible. The numbers are way too bad to just blame it on a 3 hour time difference or the timing of the tournament. A substantial number of people are actually boycotting this world cup, even when the games are broadcast on public TV.
 

Solius

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All these protests by footballers/pundits are just for virtue signaling. If they really cared about all this stuff they wouldn't have come to play football in Qatar would they? And then you see comments on social media praising these acts. Like c'mon are you so easily brainwashed? All it does is to get some extra points with the woke social justice warriors.
Another person using ‘woke’ in this way :lol: oh dear
 

stevoc

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Maybe he learned more about the situation there and changed his mind?

Wouldn’t that be totally understandable and natural?


Isn’t it GOOD to be fluid of thought and open to new information, rather than ‘I said / read this once, so now it’s a fact’?

It’s starting to get very troubling how so many people seem more motivated by pedantry than by compassion for other humans suffering.
Linekar has recently commented on those quotes form 2018.

Football presenter Gary Lineker has said he and the BBC should have spoken out more about human rights issues during the World Cup in Russia in 2018.

Lineker, who is fronting BBC coverage of this year's World Cup in Qatar, said: "I think we were sportswashed four years ago when we were in Russia."
He added: "I do look back four years and feel slightly uncomfortable."
There were calls for Russia to be stripped of the 2018 tournament after it annexed Crimea in 2014.
Lineker told BBC Radio 4's The Media Show that "we didn't talk perhaps enough about the other issues" as well as the football in Russia.
This time around, the BBC panel of pundits did discuss human rights issues in Qatar ahead of Sunday's opening game.
Lineker said "it was deemed the right thing to do" to not just talk about the sport.
"I think we learned from what we probably felt was a mistake [with Russia]. I think looking back now in hindsight, we should probably have spoken out more."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-63720785
 

Ayush_reddevil

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I decided that I will skip this and even though it’s been hard I have missed it all so far. Really tempted by the England game tomorrow though
 

GifLord

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Another person using ‘woke’ in this way :lol: oh dear
In what way? What is definition of woke?
alert to injustice in society, especially racism.
Tell me again why all these people are going after Qatar? Mentioning corruption, migrant worker deaths,...
 

redshaw

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It's early days still, but I wonder if Qatar regret their decision now? The negative publicity has to be way worse than they expected and the viewership numbers in some European countries are absolutely terrible. The numbers are way too bad to just blame it on a 3 hour time difference or the timing of the tournament. A substantial number of people are actually boycotting this world cup, even when the games are broadcast on public TV.
I don't think they would and outside of Europe there's not the same outrage or scrutiny if any. The big picture is it's been worthwhile.

And Gary Lineker's comments say a lot about the way things were in 2018, cast yourselves back to 2012 or 2008, not many were pushing the things they do today. We didn't have Wayne Rooney wanting to wear a Rainbow arm band. We didn't have F1 drivers doing the same sort of thing whether that be Lewis/Vettel when young or the older drivers of the recent past. I think we forget just how much ideas and minds have changed since 2010 and have really changed drastically in the last 5 years, it's ever increasing within western Europe and anglosphere. It feels odd to then expect complete turnaround in Qatar let alone places in Africa, South America, east and south Asia, eastern Europe. The Russia invasion and Roman has also woken people up to the sportwashing or lets say self marketing of a state or oligarchs, it's used as a vehicle to help normalize.
 
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Solius

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In what way? What is definition of woke?
alert to injustice in society, especially racism.
Tell me again why all these people are going after Qatar? Mentioning corruption, migrant worker deaths,...
Well it originated in black culture and was bastardised by the right to basically have a go at everything they don’t like but you carry on using it like you were told. That’s definitely the right side to be on.
 

Pintu

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I bet his learning curve is bell shaped, it will flatten out again at the next world cup. Peaked only in 2022.
It is more complicated... He wanted to boycott Russia first (back in 2014...) And then learned to embrace it in 2017... And now he's learned to speak up against Qatar.

 

Scandi Red

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I don't think they would and outside of Europe there's not the same outrage or scrutiny if any. The big picture is it's been worthwhile.
Europe is a pretty big market, though. And I say "Europe", but you could probably throw in Australia, New Zealand and the US to a certain degree. Canadians may turn a blind eye for sporting reasons, but they tend to be similar to Western/Northern Europe when it comes to these things.

All in all we're talking about countries that make up way more than a billion people, who generally are rich on a world scale. I honestly think Qatar would have been better off laying relatively low with their airline on a few jerseys instead. But I'm just speculating.
 

Pintu

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Yes.. Tell me about European participation. I also look forward to read your definition of participation and war crime. Is the weapon industry a war crime?
This is participation and assistance. You may call it weapon industry. I call it for what it is, when you send pilots over there to fly the jets that go on bombing hospitals and schools.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190326-uk-special-forces-injured-in-top-secret-yemen-campaign/

Helping Saudia Arabia in Yemen is criminal in my view. But you probably disagree.

The Saudi led coalition (with support of the UK and UK mandated experts) have committed numerous war crimes that have been documented.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2022/saudi-war-crimes-yemen/





Our secret dirty war: Five British Special Forces troops are wounded in Yemen while 'advising' Saudi Arabia on their deadly campaign that has brought death and famine to millions

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ded-Yemen-advising-Saudi-Arabia-campaign.html
 
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