Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

Ali Dia

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I haven’t watched a single match or highlight yet. My country not being in it and all the controversy and corruption has made it so unexciting and uninspiring in the build up. It’s nothing like it was in my younger days. I will probably start half watching the knockout stages but for me at this stage in my life all I really have the time to invest in is United and Ireland (and a bit of complaining about both on here)
 

Rood

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Are in agreement the 6500 deaths figure was a lie?

It now has me suspicious about anything regarding Qatar. Definitely more grey area here
While not a complete lie (because thousands of migrant workers have actually died in Qatar) the 6500 figure that is thrown around is misleading at the very least because it's all deaths over a 10yr period and not directly connected to the World Cup projects.

Still it's pretty clear that conditions for a lot of workers on construction sites in Qatar (in fact all over the Gulf) are bad and need to be improved.

However there is evidence that there have been quite a few improvements implemented in Qatar in recent times due to the international spotlight the WC brings, more needs to be done or course but at least moving in the right direction

few articles here worth a read for anyone who wants to know the actual facts:

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-many-people-have-died-for-the-qatar-world-cup/a-63763713

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...-policy-workers-world-cup-2022-expert-verdict

https://www.qatar-tribune.com/artic...n-disinformation-about-workers-death-in-qatar

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decod...hs-on-qatar-construction-sites_6004375_8.html
 

MackRobinson

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Every single subject devolves into whataboutism on this forum and the wider social media, every single subject left or right. Whataboutism won't stop because you're pointing out the date.
I am convinced posters on this forum don't understand the term and use it to shut down dissenting points of view. Anyone who screams whataboutism by default instead of attempting to understand the context of the counterexample isn't worth the back and forth.
 

Just Hope

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As an old and tired man, I really don't have the energy to boytcott the event.

I'll get whatever dose of dopamine I can get, specially considering the record of Qatar main critics.

It is time people in power take strong stances against the kind of discrimination we are seeing, loading it all on the little guy is getting tiresome. This would mean that we vote for people willing to do such things. Alas, we never do.




I agree. Qatar is an incredibly small country, with only 352,536 local inhabitants. The remaining 88%, which comes to about 2,621,264 people, is composed of foreign workers according to this source from Wikipedia: http://priyadsouza.com/population-of-Qatar-by-nationality-in-2017/.

People in progressive countries still struggle with their sexual identity. Imagine being a culturally isolated member of a theocratic nightmare of a country. I wouldn't complain either.
 
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The Corinthian

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Every single subject devolves into whataboutism on this forum and the wider social media, every single subject left or right. Whataboutism won't stop because you're pointing out the date.
Whataboutism is a term used by primarily Western commentators to avoid accountability and signals Western fragility.
 

maniak

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Whataboutism is a term used by primarily Western commentators to avoid accountability and signals Western fragility.
I mean, I've seen you call out whataboutism in the palestine thread a few times. You even used the term.
 

2mufc0

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Every single subject devolves into whataboutism on this forum and the wider social media, every single subject left or right. Whataboutism won't stop because you're pointing out the date.
A lot of people don't realise how damaging hypocrisy is to credibility, no one is saying you have to be squeaky clean to point out injustices, but when you have German treatment of Ozil and German clubs going to the middle East for warm weather training it does seem a bit baffling, . Then you have Denmark who are making changes to their kit to highlight human rights but played in Tel Aviv a year ago without a peep, you can't make it up. Its not whatabouttery as all these actions are football related and connected. And when push came to shove they wouldn't stand up for it because of threats of yellow cards, it just comes accross insincere and hollow.
 

maniak

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A lot of people don't realise how damaging hypocrisy is to credibility, no one is saying you have to be squeaky clean to point out injustices, but when you have German treatment of Ozil and German clubs going to the middle East for warm weather training it does seem a bit baffling, . Then you have Denmark who are making changes to their kit to highlight human rights but played in Tel Aviv a year ago without a peep, you can't make it up. Its not whatabouttery as all these actions are football related and connected. And when push came to shove they wouldn't stand up for it because of threats of yellow cards, it just comes accross insincere and hollow.
I guess the annoying bit is that that is being used a way to counter arguments of people in this thread. I have never silenced ozil, no one in this thread ever silenced ozil or supported it, but somehow that is an argument to counter what people are saying in this thread?

It's just a cheap and obvious tactic to change the course of the conversation.

And here we are proving it works.
 

2mufc0

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I guess the annoying bit is that that is being used a way to counter arguments of people in this thread. I have never silenced ozil, no one in this thread ever silenced ozil or supported it, but somehow that is an argument to counter what people are saying in this thread?

It's just a cheap and obvious tactic to change the course of the conversation.

And here we are proving it works.
My post wasn't about any poster on this thread, more about thr bad faith of certain organisations. The course of the conversation hasn't changed anywhere, the criticism is everywhere.
 

MackRobinson

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I guess the annoying bit is that that is being used a way to counter arguments of people in this thread. I have never silenced ozil, no one in this thread ever silenced ozil or supported it, but somehow that is an argument to counter what people are saying in this thread?

It's just a cheap and obvious tactic to change the course of the conversation.

And here we are proving it works.
He literally just posted a picture. If anything, he's highlighting the hypocrisy, which he's allowed to do. He never argued Qatar is right or Germany is wrong. But b/c we all understand the implications of the picture, we scream whataboutism. It's lame as hell.
 

Stack

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is this the word of the day? I am not mate. Compassion does not help the cause anyway! I respect the demonstrations for any noble cause. But is it enough? Is it loud enough? Is it as “aggressive”as what is happening now?

by the way, are you boycotting the world cup?
yes I won’t watch a single game. I’ve watched every World Cup since 1974. I typically watch every game, groups and all. I’m not watching because fifa is so corrupt and Qatar should never have been awarded this ex in the first place. My problem is with fifa primarily. The issues with Qatar are one of the reasons they shouldnt have been awarded this World Cup but it’s on fifa for this decision.
 

MackRobinson

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A lot of people don't realise how damaging hypocrisy is to credibility, no one is saying you have to be squeaky clean to point out injustices, but when you have German treatment of Ozil and German clubs going to the middle East for warm weather training it does seem a bit baffling, . Then you have Denmark who are making changes to their kit to highlight human rights but played in Tel Aviv a year ago without a peep, you can't make it up. Its not whatabouttery as all these actions are football related and connected. And when push came to shove they wouldn't stand up for it because of threats of yellow cards, it just comes accross insincere and hollow.
Amen
 

maniak

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He literally just posted a picture. If anything, he's highlighting the hypocrisy, which he's allowed to do. He never argued Qatar is right or Germany is wrong. But b/c we all understand the implications of the picture, we scream whataboutism. It's lame as hell.
So the point was not to change the course of the conversation from qatari human rights abuses (which is the point of this thread) to western organizations are hypocrites. Right... I bet you own a lot of bridges.
 

Pintu

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So the point was not to change the course of the conversation from qatari human rights abuses (which is the point of this thread) to western organizations are hypocrites. Right... I bet you own a lot of bridges.
The point could be:

"it is a shame German Football Association are hypocrites, hence untrustworthy which is bound to make their rightful pro-LGBT stance inaudible..."
 

The Corinthian

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I mean, I've seen you call out whataboutism in the palestine thread a few times. You even used the term.
I’ve used it at a certain poster who can’t seem to discuss Israel in the Israel thread.

This is a fairly broad thread talking about a whole range of topics - going from LGBT issues, political armbands, migrant workers, Fifa as an organisation and what they stand for, human rights and organisational structures. And asking the question why Ozil was given so much shit for speaking out about Uighurs (not necessarily by Fifa, but by other football organisations) in this thread is quite valid.
 

maniak

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The point could be:

"it is a shame German Football Association are hypocrites, hence untrustworthy which is bound to make their rightful pro-LGBT stance inaudible..."
The problem is that following that logic we arrive at the conclusion literally no organization can criticize another organization. No person is pure, so no one can criticize anyone. I mean, we can, but we'd be hypocrites, so what's the point anyway?
 

maniak

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I’ve used it at a certain poster who can’t seem to discuss Israel in the Israel thread.

This is a fairly broad thread talking about a whole range of topics - going from LGBT issues, political armbands, migrant workers, Fifa as an organisation and what they stand for, human rights and organisational structures. And asking the question why Ozil was given so much shit for speaking out about Uighurs (not necessarily by Fifa, but by other football organisations) in this thread is quite valid.
All those issues related to qatar. No about china or germany.
 

MackRobinson

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So the point was not to change the course of the conversation from qatari human rights abuses (which is the point of this thread) to western organizations are hypocrites. Right... I bet you own a lot of bridges.
The point is to post a counterexample is not automatically a whataboutism. Simple as.
 

The Corinthian

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All those issues related to qatar. No about china or germany.
The FAs of different countries have been discussed in this thread though, as well as a whole host of other topics. Someone bringing Ozil’s treatment at the hands of the German FA on the same day the German NT and FA make a political gesture is a valid thing to bring up.
 

maniak

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The point is to post a counterexample is not automatically a whataboutism. Simple as.
A counter example to the loads of posts saying western fa's are not hypocrites? Can you point me to these posts claiming european fa's are not hypocrites and a leading example? Because it looks like a counter example to something that wasn't said.
 

maniak

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The FAs of different countries have been discussed in this thread though, as well as a whole host of other topics. Someone bringing Ozil’s treatment at the hands of the German FA on the same day the German NT and FA make a political gesture is a valid thing to bring up.
I honestly see no difference to what fearless does bringing up hamas all the time in the palestine thread, but ok, let's disagree.

In a way my point is proven, in that the last few posts are about anything but the original intent of this thread, so I'll stop here.
 

MackRobinson

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A counter example to the loads of posts saying western fa's are not hypocrites? Can you point me to these posts claiming european fa's are not hypocrites and a leading example? Because it looks like a counter example to something that wasn't said.
It's a forum. He's allowed to point out the hypocrisy even if nobody posted they weren't hypocrites. He's allowed to share his point of view, correct? The fact that he wasn't responding to anything, in particular, makes the claims of whataboutism even more absurd.
 

The Corinthian

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I honestly see no difference to what fearless does bringing up hamas all the time in the palestine thread, but ok, let's disagree.

In a way my point is proven, in that the last few posts are about anything but the original intent of this thread, so I'll stop here.
No I get what you’re saying. He loves bringing up Uighurs/China, Saudi Arabia, etc as well (which is what my point was).

The other thing he does is just not discuss the topic and paste some irrelevant YouTube link which is nonsense.
 

Pintu

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The problem is that following that logic we arrive at the conclusion literally no organization can criticize another organization. No person is pure, so no one can criticize anyone. I mean, we can, but we'd be hypocrites, so what's the point anyway?
It depends. I believe that most people would find criticism from Amnesty and HRW to be valid and trustworthy, as they've been writing about Qatar for years without shying away from other issues. Their impurity is not disqualifying them.

The impurity of most Western MSM and football organizations is far more problematic. And it is a credibility killer in the eyes of many around the world.
 

maniak

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It's a forum. He's allowed to point out the hypocrisy even if nobody posted they weren't hypocrites. He's allowed to share his point of view, correct? The fact that he wasn't responding to anything, in particular, makes the claims of whataboutism even more absurd.
Then it's not really a counter example, is it? He's allowed to post whatever he wants, just as I have the right to point out it's whataboutism.
 

maniak

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It depends. I believe that most people would find criticism from Amnesty and HRW to be valid and trustworthy, as they've been writing about Qatar for years without shying away from other issues. Their impurity is not disqualifying them.

The impurity of most Western MSM and football organizations is far more problematic. And it is a credibility killer in the eyes of many around the world.
I'm sure you missed how amnesty was obliterated a few months ago regarding ukraine, with people saying "yeah but what about russia". This reasoning is everywhere and just dilutes the point that should be the focus in that moment.
 

MackRobinson

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Then it's not really a counter example, is it? He's allowed to post whatever he wants, just as I have the right to point out it's whataboutism.
Counter to the narrative in this thread, but you can just call it an example if you want to be precise. Regardless, if it's not countering anything as you say how can it be whataboutism? You do understand what that word means right?
 

Hanks

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Agree. The 2nd Amendment is probably most well-known example of how shit things end up being when an ancient law is still being taken as gospel.
As a person whose people have been abused and are now getting daily murdered by the state, I can tell you, I dream of the day our country has 2nd amendment. Maybe then, the 10-15% who run the country wouldn't be able to mass murder and silence the majority, just because they have all the guns.

I think it was Lenin who said, a single person with a gun can control 100 without a gun. It's hard to fight dictatorships and brutal state-sponsored murder with rocks and molotov cocktails :(
 

maniak

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Counter to the narrative in this thread, but you can just call it an example if you want to be precise. Regardless, if it's not countering anything as you say how can it be whataboutism? You do understand what that word means right?
"germany player protested in qatar by covering their mouths"

"yeah what about that time they silenced ozil"

Not whataboutism at all.
 

NM

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As a person whose people have been abused and are now getting daily murdered by the state, I can tell you, I dream of the day our country has 2nd amendment. Maybe then, the 10-15% who run the country wouldn't be able to mass murder and silence the majority, just because they have all the guns.

I think it was Lenin who said, a single person with a gun can control 100 without a gun. It's hard to fight dictatorships and brutal state-sponsored murder with rocks and molotov cocktails :(
Your location is Canada.. Unless you are a native American your statement makes no sense.
 

Hanks

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Your location is Canada.. Unless you are a native American your statement makes no sense.
I am Iranian. Living in Canada most my life, because I can't return home due to political reasons.
 

MackRobinson

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"germany player protested in qatar by covering their mouths"

"yeah what about that time they silenced ozil"

Not whataboutism at all.
That's not what happened and the side you agree with doesn't get to monopolize expressing opinions.
 

stevoc

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I honestly see no difference to what fearless does bringing up hamas all the time in the palestine thread, but ok, let's disagree.

In a way my point is proven, in that the last few posts are about anything but the original intent of this thread, so I'll stop here.
And that is exactly the point of whataboutery.
 

NLunited

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Fifa is the problem.

Qatar is no place to host a world cup. In addition to the horrible laws discriminating women and killing/imprisoning gays, it is not fun hanging out there for supporters. A world cup should be a big party.

Russia was not much better. It is hypocritical they weren’t called out more for their homophobic laws and killing off critical journalists.

Now Fifa is considering a Saudi Arabia bid for the World Cup, can you believe it? Another horrible place.
 

united for life

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yes I won’t watch a single game. I’ve watched every World Cup since 1974. I typically watch every game, groups and all. I’m not watching because fifa is so corrupt and Qatar should never have been awarded this ex in the first place. My problem is with fifa primarily. The issues with Qatar are one of the reasons they shouldnt have been awarded this World Cup but it’s on fifa for this decision.
fair play. Probably the first person i spoke to who actually does what he preaches for with respect to this topic. I might not agree with you, but respect.
 
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