Always thought Brexit is a massive plot to make us subservient to the US. Each passing episode in this shambles has me more convinced.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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No not from the UK stand point, you refer to origins, which I accept I did not convey correctly, however when the UK joined in the 1970's the customs union existed and the aim of striving towards achieving a single market was well known and talked about, even in the UK. I do not dispute that certain features were not adequately explained or made plain to the UK public at the time of the first UK vote on Europe and Tony Benn and some other UK politicians did offer warnings; also there is no doubt that lingering aspects of that played a role in the Brexit referendum.
The UK has never been a fully committed member of the EU, opts outs, rebates etc. mainly because of political nuances rather than trade issues, of which both sides (now portrayed as Leavers and Remainers) played a role. Jacques Delor did as much as any one to stoke the fires of misconception in the UK about the progress required and sought. This week for the first time the EU will be able to raise money directly from the banks for post Covid issues, amongst other things, this presents another step towards fully fledged Union. These signals mean different things in the UK and no one either in the UK or in the EU has ever sought to honestly clarify what that phrase ever closer union means now, or for the future, not in the 1950's.
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Problem is that the UK think the USA is their best friend and will fall over backwards for them. The USA have always used the UK to their advantage and always will do.
If the UK ever sign a deal with the US, not convinced, it will be heavily weighted in the USA's favour. Any agreement always costs the UK a hell of a lot.
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Sounds as if the US talks are going as well at the EU talks. And by the way, you countries that border the Pacific will henceforth be told what to do by a country that doesn't border the Pacific.
Brexit fantasy world still not completely dead ... yet.
There’s a tonne of posturing on both sides at the moment. I’d put my money on a deal being struck.
Actually, can you bet on this? Anyone offering odds?
Actually, can you bet on this? Anyone offering odds?
Since no deal is idiotic I'd say it is extremely likely given that team Bojo is in charge.
odds of a deal before 1st jan 2021
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/brexit/uk-and-eu-to-sign-a-trade-deal-in-2020
1/14 odds on that no deal is done
23/5 that a deal is done
odds of an extension
https://www.oddschecker.com/politic...brexit-transition-period-after-1-january-2021
Yes 1/5 odds on we do it
No 13/5
Gut feel they dont make a deal but find a way of doing an extension without calling it an extension - initial trading relationship for example (basically an extension as they try to sort a deal both can spin positivly)
Brexit will deliver double shock to UK economy, study finds
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-shock-to-uk-economy-study-finds-coronavirus
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-shock-to-uk-economy-study-finds-coronavirus
Brexit is saved!
Or, to put it another way, Japan is shitting all over a desperate UK.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...son-eu-transition-market-access-a9580731.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...son-eu-transition-market-access-a9580731.html
The entire world must change to accommodate to the UK's wishes from members of the TTIP right to the EU
Going into a no deal WTO trade rules Brexit would, in normal times be an economic disaster.
Going into it in the middle of a global pandemic with our economy in serious recession is going to be a catastrophe.
Be very careful what you wish for brexiteers.
Hope you have a good sense of humour.
The last comment will always amaze me. Around 50% of english fishing companies are owned by foreigners mainly Dutch, Icelanders and Spanish. Unless Brexit also includes nationalizing these companies it's the same people who are going to sell those fishes and they will sell them to whoever they want, my guess will be the largest food market in the world, Rungis.Brexit is saved!
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I think the trend now is for people to double down on their opinion.
I foresee lots of excuses being made, blaming of external factors, probably blaming the EU, or even immigrants, for the inevitable reduction in UK living standards and much inconvenience in the immediate aftermath of Brexit.
I cannot think of a more incompetent government to be in charge of such a significant shift in the UK landscape. If we had a progressive, intelligent, reflective and forward thinking government I may have felt optimistic about Brexit in the long term. Unfortunately, as it stands, it will just be a pay day for disaster capitalists while everyone else pays the price.
Britannia will always rule the waves in Little Englanders' eyes.I suspect the last comment is sarcasm...prettyplease? or I expect too much?
The one on the right is probably not sarcasm because it has been a brexiteer focus for a very long time.
And of course, Britannia is taking back control.
All I can say is that if the catastrophic way this government has handled the Corona Virus plays out after the stupidity of a no deal, we are going to go through one of the hardest and longest recessions in our history.
But. But. It will be worth it because we are taking back control.
Well good luck with that.
Isn't fishing a very small part of the UK economyI So if 50% of that small percentage is foreign owned brexiteers will be very disappointed in the results no matter what.
This article explains the situation well and you can understand why they are going to be very disappointed. Essentially the UK would have to change their own laws and philosophies that created that situation, especially when it comes to inciting the trade of fishing licenses and quotas.
I really don't understand why fishing became such a point of contention for so many Brexit voters. Or for that matter, why the EU particularly cares about it even now. It is such a tiny proportion of our economies and has taken such a disproportionate focus.
Had to laugh at the idea of the Japanese being so keen to buy our fish though
. And I have to ask, even if they do want to buy our fish, who the hell cares? Is the Yen suddenly more valuable than the Euro to British fishermen? Is 127 million suddenly a bigger market than 445 million?The EU cares because while it is not the largest industry it still has a massive impact on environment and the economy of certain areas. Not everyone lives in London or Paris.I really don't understand why fishing became such a point of contention for so many Brexit voters. Or for that matter, why the EU particularly cares about it even now. It is such a tiny proportion of our economies and has taken such a disproportionate focus.
Had to laugh at the idea of the Japanese being so keen to buy our fish though
The point is that fishing is small fry (pun intended) to the point of irrelevance when discussing being in or out of the EU.
I understand but my point was that even if it was a larger industry the problem were caused by british politicians and the larger fishermen which would still make the discussion of being in or out of the EU highly questionable when it comes to fishing.
I think its because for the French particularly the prospect of fishermen blockading harbours and generally fecking about in the channel for the next year isnt one that helps macron electorally in France as it will help push the nationalist / anti eu agenda
I believe the uk sees this as a way to get other potential concessions... in truth not the worst negotiating tactic but I think the uk has probably overplayed its hand and is bricking it incase macron calls rather than folds as I believe cv19 will probably at least in the short term help pro eu sentiment more than a hard brexit will hurt it
Fair enough.
Brexit doesn't make the news around here and has no weight in future elections. France is also not the country that has the most to lose, I get that the press in the UK loves to mention France but in that particular case the UK should focus on Spain, Netherland, Belgium and Denmark, in particular Netherlands and in general the European Fisheries Alliance.
But not enough in my opinion for it to be a supposed red line in negotiations for both sides.
I don't think that it's actually a red line for the EU and I'm not sure if it's one for the UK either. It's more a matter of grandstanding but at the end of day, they are going to have an agreement that will most likely be close to what currently exists, the other issues such as protecting the integrity of the EU market are far larger than that.
Why is it so important to the British insert some insult about their stupidity. Why is it then so important for the EU insert a statement like this. The bias on this thread about this issue is unbelievable.
Granting access to UK waters was a demand made on the UK by the French when the UK joined the common market. The UK now has a chance to undo that because we are not in the EU anymore. It is important to both sides that is why the EU make it a prerequisite for any trade deal and the UK won't budge. The EU is not entitled to any say in UK EEZ post Brexit. Will EU countries who fish in the north sea be allowed some access post a trade deal, probably yes. Will the UK remain in the common fisheries policy probably not. Remember though its the EU that is demanding no change post Brexit which clearly has to happen as the UK is currently in the EU common fisheries policy having left The EU.
The UK is looking to address the imbalance which sees UK fishermen taking 35% of their own countries stocks and most fish stocks in the current EU waters are not at optimum sustainable take because the stocks can't grow due to over fishing. The EU fishing policy has been a disaster for UK fishermen and fish stocks and the marine environment. Hopefully we do a better job at it in the future.Either way it is the UK's EEZ to exploit under UN law.
The UK might capitulate on the principle yet and if so, so be it, but it seems unlikely at the moment. If the EU bans us from selling fish in to the EU then we can always leave them in the sea for a few years and harvest the long term greater bounty or try again when calmer heads return. Macron's problem is that all the EU countries benefit from a trade deal with the UK while only a small number benefit from over fishing British waters. If French intransigence blows the trade deal they probably won't be pleased but who knows its the EU and at least we don't have to get involved in those internal machinations anymore.
That's the thing that does my head in. Ignoring the part where you pretend that UK fisheries issues come from the EU, the man who is leading the fishing lobby is Gerard Van Balsfoort, he isn't french, he has nothing to do with Macron and he represents the foreign nation that has by far the biggest stake in UKs fishing industry. That type of narratives particularly aimed at France and Germany are nasty, they create bitterness for no good reason, there is no french intransigence, it's not a french problem, France aren't the ones that are going to fix or block things, it's a problem that concerns the fishing lobby at a continental level and while France are around the table, they aren't the larger player in it
Fishing is a tiny practically irrelevant part of our economy and giving up the chances of a deal over it is stupid as feck. It's a nationalist issue and nothing more. If we want stuff from the EU (and we obviously do) then we have to offer things in return.
As said so many times, apart from a few angry fishermen , nobody gives a toss and what is caught in UK waters is sold into Europe, if there's no agreement there's no point in the UK having the fish as they can't sell it and don't eat it.
Red herrings everywhere!
Red herrings everywhere!
The UK has withdrawn many of its demands from its current negotiating position precisely to avoid that prid quo pro. The EU chief negotiator has said as much. The current EU position that the UK has to give access on the current basis to UK EEZ before any deal can go ahead is an attempt to hold on to the price tolled for UK entry post its exit. Most people would see that as unreasonable if they could bring themselves a little distance from the matter.
And it is Macron who is leading the fight, up to the point of no deal, to hold the EU position because the fury of French fishermen when they can only catch fish in EU waters which will be half of its current size because the UK provides 50% of the current EU EEZ will be like that of a woman scorned.
Herring and mackerel are forage fish and part of the food chain. The fish we do eat feed on them, leaving them in UK waters would be a huge boost to that environment and increase the long term sustainable stocks for the future.
Banning UK fish from Europe might sound like a good idea but I'm not sure it is and treating UK differently to any other country post brexit breaks WTO rules anyway doesn't it?
Putting to one side of the question whether or not the UK and its fishermen have a real grievance, how can it be sensible policy to risk significant disruption to the manufacturing and services sector in the hope of benefiting a tiny industry which contributes a fraction of 1% of GDP? It is just cynically playing to the gallery of ill-informed, knuckled-headed nationalism.
You're the one not looking at it with some distance. Try and remember that finding a deal is beneficial to both sides. Yes the EU will try and extract as many benefits as they can from the deal, and why wouldn't they? They're negotiating for their citizens and their industries and economies. If the EU are refusing to sign a deal though, then its because the proposed deal isn't good enough to warrant the sacrifices it will cost them. At that point it doesn't matter what the UK think is fair or want, if the EU doesn't gain enough to benefit then they won't sign up to a deal, its very simple.
We warned you about this right back before the referendum even happened. Negotiating a complex trade deal with a much more powerful group is never going to result in a deal in your favour. It's certainly never going to result in a deal that is even close to as beneficial as the deal you had while part of that group.