Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

If that's your view, then what is the alternative Brexit process that you would accept, that you think was offered/ publicised during the campaign

What i believed to be the effective Leave offer is consistent with and respectful of the EU's belief structure. Simply put, the UK ceasesto be a member of both the Single Market and the Customs Union. No mandated primacy of the ECJ nor guaranteed FoM). There was, however, scope to continue some level of annual contribution (for access to services and in support of programs we might still participate in).

While it won't happen with ths present government i do also expect significant reductions to the expense of visas for all entrants. We could also waive citizenship costs outright for those working in certain sectors. Recipricol arrangements for even lower barriers of movement could be reached with a smaller number of nations, places sucha s: US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea... I'll have a word with Liam and see what he thinks.

There has never been a practicable 'soft Brexit', only continued EU membership in all but name. Remain would have won the referendum without actually doing so. The suggetion that this would pleases nobody is very disingenuous, and knowingly so i imagine.

@Nick 0208 Ldn do you think this "regulatory alignment" for the UK is a betrayal of the vote?

Antyhing UK-wide would have to be quite limited in nature for it not ot be. Taxation is a definite no-go for instance.

 

[Fully Fledged]

@Nick 0208 Ldn do you think this "regulatory alignment" for the UK is a betrayal of the vote?

The only thing that we voted for was in or out. What that means is totally in the hands of the Government and our friends still in The EU. All these people saying that's not what I voted for need to go back and see what was written on the ballot paper.

Brexit means what ever we end up getting and it's probably going to be worse than what we had.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

What i believed to be the effective Leave offer is consistent with and respectful of the EU's belief structure. Simply put, the UK ceasesto be a member of both the Single Market and the Customs Union. No mandated primacy of the ECJ nor guaranteed FoM). There was, however, scope to continue some level of annual contribution (for access to services and in support of programs we might still participate in).

While it won't happen with ths present government i do also expect significant reductions to the expense of visas for all entrants. We could also waive citizenship costs outright for those working in certain sectors. Recipricol arrangements for even lower barriers of movement could be reached with a smaller number of nations, places sucha s: US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea... I'll have a word with Liam and see what he thinks.

There has never been a practicable 'soft Brexit', only continued EU membership in all but name. Remain would have won the referendum without actually doing so. The suggetion that this would pleases nobody is very disingenuous, and knowingly so i imagine.

See that's been the problem with the Leave vote, it's all completely subjective and there was no coherent view or plan. It was all down to what the person believed.

 

[GloryHunter07]

The only thing that we voted for was in or out. What that means is totally in the hands of the Government and our friends still in The EU. All these people saying that's not what I voted for need to go back and see what was written on the ballot paper.

Brexit means what ever we end up getting and it's probably going to be worse than what we had.

I agree, you should take this up with Nick.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Antyhing UK-wide would have to be quite limited in nature for it not ot be. Taxation is a definite no-go for instance.

What about changes to the Law?

 

[caid]

See that's been the problem with the Leave vote, it's all completely subjective and there was no coherent view or plan. It was all down to what the person believed.

A lot of the things they believed were outright lies and can't be delivered upon.
Your kind of having terms dictated to you because you've failed to propose a single realistic, coherent plan to deal with any of these issues.

 

[Maagge]

England which is the most densely populated country in Europe (except the island of Malta)

That sounds wrong. I'd imagine both the Netherlands and Belgium have higher population densities.

 

[GloryHunter07]

A lot of the things they believed were outright lies and can't be delivered upon.
Your kind of having terms dictated to you because you've failed to propose a single realistic, coherent plan to deal with any of these issues.

Lots of "red lines" though

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That sounds wrong. I'd imagine both the Netherlands and Belgium have higher population densities.

He's decided that England will go it alone and Scotland, Wales and NI don't count.

 

[Massive Spanner]

That sounds wrong. I'd imagine both the Netherlands and Belgium have higher population densities.

England on its own has a higher density than those two.

So yeah, it is, If you don't count Monaco.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

England on its own has a higher density than those two.

So yeah, it is, If you don't count Monaco.

Although if London and the other big cities claim independence it will be one of the least populated

 

[jackofalltrades]

Maybe this is how she'll explain the deal in parliament :

You keep the North Brit in
the South Brit out
The West Brit in
Then you shake it all about.

 

[Rajma]

England on its own has a higher density than those two.

So yeah, it is, If you don't count Monaco.

Last time I checked England was part of the UK, unless he prepares for the inevitable departure of Scotland and NI from the union. UK has huge structural problems and immigration has little bearing on those, hence singling out England (using same logic you can go on more granular level, say South East of England or use only London as an example of density?) is only viable if you're trying to push through some agenda that suits ones flawed understanding.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

See that's been the problem with the Leave vote, it's all completely subjective and there was no coherent view or plan. It was all down to what the person believed.

Based on months of campaigning, TV debates and eventual policy statements. I was asked by TH what my position was as a Leave voter.

Perhaps you can point to any similar official pronouncements? They should explain how we'll continue under ECJ jurisdiction, pay near-on the same bill, maintain FoM and have no means to reach trade deals. Sounds an awful lot like the Remain pitch to me; just minus the economic armageddon, military conflict, and Brexiteers being backward, insular, racist allies of Islamic State.

 

[Fully Fledged]

That's all we voted on Remain or Leave. They didn't even ask us what Brexit would mean. There was no vote on soft or hard Brexit.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Based on months of campaigning, TV debates and eventual policy statements. I was asked by TH what my position was as a Leave voter.

Perhaps you can point to any similar official pronouncements? They should explain how we'll continue under ECJ jurisdiction, pay near-on the same bill, maintain FoM and have no means to reach trade deals. Sounds an awful lot like the Remain pitch to me; just minus the economic armageddon, military conflict, and Brexiteers being backward, insular, racist allies of Islamic State.

To be fair I wasn't criticising you specifically, you have your position on Leave like I imagine another Leave voter has his own position. But as @Fully Fledged no one was asked what Brexit would mean, it ends up coming down to what individuals believed and that is where the problem lies in. But sure Remoaners are the problem for pointing out the issues that Brexit could face.

 

[JPRouve]

To be fair I wasn't criticising you specifically, you have your position on Leave like I imagine another Leave voter has his own position. But as @Fully Fledged no one was asked what Brexit would mean, it ends up coming down to what individuals believed and that is where the problem lies in. But sure Remoaners are the problem for pointing out the issues that Brexit could face.

That's one of the criticism that I have against the remain campaign. In my opinion they did a poor job when it came to demand clarification on what Brexit actually meant and it was a very obvious point because in theory Brexit is easy, you leave when you want and don't ask anything to the EU and the consequences are known and materially manageable. The problems start when Brexit does not mean Brexit.

 

[Oscie]

Problem is that when push comes to shove she knows she has the Labour leadership behind her on hard brexit and that Labour MPs will be whipped into backing her stance on the UK leaving the CU and SM, as they did last time. She might not even need to DUP. Noises coming out of party that their position is shifting towards staying in SM/CU but we've had these noises before. End of the day the two most important people at the top are Brexiters and I'd be amazed if Labour MPs aren't again whipped into talking govt line.

Even if senior members of the front-bench seem to be pushing for a policy change, I'd be surprised if they succeed. if Corbyn wasn't in his heart as much of a Brexiteer as Rees-Mogg (albeit for different reasons), Labour could have destroyed May over this. As it is unless the opposition actually start opposing govt on their hard Brexit/out of CU/SM stance they'll actually end up being a safety net for this beleaguered govt and their discredited Brexit plans.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

That's one of the criticism that I have against the remain campaign. In my opinion they did a poor job when it came to demand clarification on what Brexit actually meant and it was a very obvious point because in theory Brexit is easy, you leave when you want and don't ask anything to the EU and the consequences are known and materially manageable. The problems start when Brexit does not mean Brexit.

There were 17.4 million versions of Brexit, if one of them is actually the outcome it would be a surprise.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Problem is that when push comes to shove she knows she has the Labour leadership behind her on hard brexit and that Labour MPs will be whipped into backing her stance on the UK leaving the CU and SM, as they did last time. She might not even need to DUP. Noises coming out of party that their position is shifting towards staying in SM/CU but we've had these noises before. End of the day the two most important people at the top are Brexiters and I'd be amazed if Labour MPs aren't again whipped into talking govt line.

Even if senior members of the front-bench seem to be pushing for a policy change, I'd be surprised if they succeed. if Corbyn wasn't in his heart as much of a Brexiteer as Rees-Mogg (albeit for different reasons), Labour could have destroyed May over this. As it is unless the opposition actually start opposing govt on their hard Brexit/out of CU/SM stance they'll actually end up being a safety net for this beleaguered govt and their discredited Brexit plans.

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

Really?

 

[Oscie]

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/


Really?

Yes

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...tunity-save-britains-membership-customs-union

And "retaining benefits..." is still leaving, but somehow thinking we can leave and still get all the benefits which is as batshit as what Davis thinks he can do.

Both Tories and Labour leadership think 'leave and they'll give us all the benefits' is a sensible position. Labour's redeeming qualities is that it's MPs are willing to tell its leadership that's bollocks, whereas Tory MPs still think it's feasible, or else we'll just invade India and set up Empire again.

Labour should be leading the charge to keep us in SM and CU and done so from day one, not rely on shitty back-bencher amendments it votes down anyway.

 

[JPRouve]

There were 17.4 million versions of Brexit, if one of them is actually the outcome it would be a surprise.

But that's a huge problem, that's an extreme case of populism. I said it from the beginning, I don't have a problem with the idea of Brexit if the idea is clear and popular, there is only one way to actually be out and it's the one that people seem to be the more against, since they believe that it equates to the EU being vengeful. To be honest, I don't think people really want Brexit, not even the professed brexiters.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But that's a huge problem, that's an extreme case of populism. I said it from the beginning, I don't have a problem with the idea of Brexit if the idea is clear and popular, there is only one way to actually be out and it's the one that people seem to be the more against, since they believe that it equates to the EU being vengeful. To be honest, I don't think people really want Brexit, not even the professed brexiters.

Agreed on the whole, but they're still in the cake and eat it mode, they want the benefits but don't want to comply with the conditions. You can see from all the different arguments just on this forum which is extremely moderate, each one is argued and debunked and we go round and round.
The worst part are the politicians, either they're all completely clueless and I mean Tory and Labour or they've only got their self-interests at heart.
I suspect both apply.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

 

[Oscie]

Imagine when the hard stuff starts. Not be surprised if 'phase 2' doesn't even starts this side of a general election.

 

[C3Pique]

If you're onTwitter, you should check out the Ireland Simpsons Fans page. It's glorious at the moment.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Cheesy]

What i believed to be the effective Leave offer is consistent with and respectful of the EU's belief structure. Simply put, the UK ceasesto be a member of both the Single Market and the Customs Union. No mandated primacy of the ECJ nor guaranteed FoM). There was, however, scope to continue some level of annual contribution (for access to services and in support of programs we might still participate in).

While it won't happen with ths present government i do also expect significant reductions to the expense of visas for all entrants. We could also waive citizenship costs outright for those working in certain sectors. Recipricol arrangements for even lower barriers of movement could be reached with a smaller number of nations, places sucha s: US, Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea... I'll have a word with Liam and see what he thinks.

There has never been a practicable 'soft Brexit', only continued EU membership in all but name. Remain would have won the referendum without actually doing so. The suggetion that this would pleases nobody is very disingenuous, and knowingly so i imagine.

But, again, how is this compatible with ensuring there's no Irish border?

 

[Stanley Road]

90% of inward immigration goes to England which is the most densely populated country in Europe (except the island of Malta) and more densely populated than India. If the Tories do not deliver then the party will be hammered creating a big vacuum on the patriotic right.

Sounds like horse shit

 

[Stanley Road]

You can have this for free mr outsider

https://www.google.nl/search?source...gws-hp..1.12.1167.3..5j35i39k1.80.MYMTyUUq3Sc

 

[JPRouve]

Sounds like horse shit

I believe you are right. From Wiki:

England officially became the second most crowded major country in the EU in 2008, according to figures released by the British Office for National Statistics. Only Malta, an island city state with a population that is no bigger than Bristol, had more people.[80] Another study in 2010 by the British House of Commons library confirmed this, although their numbers for the Netherlands are different from those used by the Luxembourg-based Eurostat. The results are different because Eurostat calculates population density using only land surface area, whereas the British House of Commons library includes the 18.41 percent of the surface area of the Netherlands which is water.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Do any Brexiters actually think this is going well?

 

[Tarrou]

Do any Brexiters actually think this is going well?

All of them yeah

 

[Ultimate Grib]

This is a mess of May’s making purely by calling that election and boy am I glad she did.

She single handendly helped Corbyn to get cemented as leader at least for the next GE. Lost her majority and got stuck with the DUP so their economic agenda and Brexit is failing hard because of it and their “hard choice” of aggresive austerity has been found out for the fraud that it is so they’re scrambling to bring measures in to soften it while Labour are just pulling ahead by virtue if doing sod all and watching them fudge it up!

The implosion if the Conservative party is so joyous to watch but who could have possibly thought it would be their parties long desire for Brexit to bring them down in such spectacular public fashion.

I was concerned and upset when the referndum decision was announced but if the process helps to get rid of the Tories for good it might be a blessing in disguise while at the same time its becoming clearer by the day that the challenges are just too greay so it’s unlikely to ever happen.

Popcorn time.

 

[sullydnl]

All of them yeah

Not so sure. I suspect the UK government's apparent willingness to agree to a deal that would effectively see them conform to EU regs has been a nasty shock for some leavers, at least if they actually believed the fantasyland scenario they claimed would come to pass.

 

[GloryHunter07]

I was concerned and upset when the referndum decision was announced but if the process helps to get rid of the Tories for good it might be a blessing in disguise while at the same time its becoming clearer by the day that the challenges are just too greay so it’s unlikely to ever happen.

Popcorn time.

What planet are you on?

 

[Ultimate Grib]

What planet are you on?

A condescending question doesn’t make you smarter however much you may think it will. Elaborate on your point and argument and I might consider giving you an answer.

 

[JPRouve]

A condescending question doesn’t make you smarter however much you may think it will. Elaborate on your point and argument and I might consider giving you an answer.

He probably means that the Tories are going nowhere. Politicians and their parties are like cockroaches, they will outlast us.

 

[Jippy]

Do any Brexiters actually think this is going well?

I've wondered about that too. Davis is putting up a fine fight, the EU will defo capitulate last minute, German car manufacturers etc...
I don't think the masses care tbh- my Brexit mother just has a Panglossian attitude, believing 'it will sort itself out'. The only time I've been able to get through to her is telling her that I'm sure her granddaughters will thank her for her destroying their chances of ever living or working abroad. That genuinely put her in awkward silence.
The upshot is if we're reduced to a pile of rubble who gives a feck as long as it's good white English folk surviving on rats and not fecking m.u.s.l.i.m.s?

 

[Ultimate Grib]

He probably means that the Tories are going nowhere. Politicians and their parties are like cockroaches, they will outlast us.

Whatever he meant, he was unable to actually say it because of his delusions of grandeur.

They do indeed outlast us but the Tories were never going to win an election again after Thatcher and Major but for a catastrophe and they were lucky enough to get it in the form of the financial crash. And a propoing up by the LD.

They’ve milked that enough now and in this age of information people have wised up to their tricks and amplified by the media overlords, whose influnce is slowly but surely waning.

If Brexit and the last election has done anything is mobilise young people to have an interest in politics as a way for determining their future.

I believe it will only take one Labour government for people to see that social policies are not detrimental to our country. That a government working to improve the life of the whole of the population and especially the poorest in our society who have suffered the most under Tory austerity is beneficial for everyone.

In that time I also believe technology will ensure the whole fabric of elections that has already started to change by the way people get information will be completed and the Tory lies and deceit will then fall on deaf ears, quite literally, that pun is intended.

 

[Silva]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...es-for-how-to-stop-brexit-as-book-of-the-year