What media point?
Bruno fans vs Pogba fans - Why?
- Thread starter Schmeichel's Cartwheel
- Start date
I've been following cafe since 2005.
During my time here I can confidently say that Pogba is what Berbatov is back then.
Same abuse by the fans, same expectations. At the end of the day this is what it is, Pogba is Berbatov level of player. Not quite the talisman, buy quite fancy enough of a footballer to enjoy when they're on song.
During my time here I can confidently say that Pogba is what Berbatov is back then.
Same abuse by the fans, same expectations. At the end of the day this is what it is, Pogba is Berbatov level of player. Not quite the talisman, buy quite fancy enough of a footballer to enjoy when they're on song.
Pogba and Bruno can be seen as opposites.
For me this thread points to the bigger issue, under top managers two creative players are easily accommodated but why is it under our present coaching scheme we are unable to find balance with implementing them both ? Would you see Madrid fans make the same thread about Kroos / Modrid, City with Silva / KDB ?
I genuinely feel under a more competent manager they would get more optimization out of the midfield. Ole is continually sacrificing creativity for pragmatism because he's lack of diversity. We are not unable to break down teams not due to a personnel but a lack of instructional directives on how its done. Players week in week out playing on their initiative capacity not on a defined system to maximise their attributes. Players look like they've been socialising in training and training when match day arrives.
I genuinely feel under a more competent manager they would get more optimization out of the midfield. Ole is continually sacrificing creativity for pragmatism because he's lack of diversity. We are not unable to break down teams not due to a personnel but a lack of instructional directives on how its done. Players week in week out playing on their initiative capacity not on a defined system to maximise their attributes. Players look like they've been socialising in training and training when match day arrives.
I don't think this is the case. I think most of us are just sick of Pogba and the tiresome debates about 'how to get the best out of him' and would prefer just to move forward with Fernandes/van de Beek as are our 'creators in Chief'
I think we're all agreed McFred is the best combination at the base of the midfield, so two of the three positions (in our most regularly used formations) pick themselves
I think we're all agreed McFred is the best combination at the base of the midfield, so two of the three positions (in our most regularly used formations) pick themselves
What have those players you have listed got to do with anything? All four are highly-effective footballers. Pogba is not. He plays for himself, he's not an effective 'footballer'.
Jose ended up discovering this and ultimately his leaving him out of the team rapidly accelerated his sacking. Ole has realised the constant experimentation to accommodate Pogba was going to see him suffer the same fate.
You need to start putting some responsibility on the players. It's not for our managers and coaches to figure out how to crowbar players into a side. The manager and coaches dictate how we will play and if certain individuals can't fulfil a role within that set-up then that's their problem
Did it really now ?
Berbatov was actually instrumental to a title win. Its unfair to compare Pogba to him.
I literally answered this question before I mentioned the specific players. Managers have every responsibility to utilise their players effectively which is more important then the players responsibility. Look at Bayern under Kovac and then the transition to Hansi Flick. Are you telling me the that the Bayern executives should have omitted half the team according to your logic or was it a similar case to us that there's a good standard of quality of players which one manager failed to find balance with while another was able to accommodate them ?
We have easily the best squad of players assembled since SAF retired. More emphasis needs to be place on the coaching staff because as I see it the more credible the capabilities of the players the less excuses Solskjaer is going to have to draw out if our inconsistency continues. Not just in results but in the abysmal performances.
You're only calling for Pogba to be included because of his reputation and his price tag...why aren't you saying Ole needs to find a formation to accommodate Lingard, Rojo or Phil Jones?
We've given Pogba so many chances. In my mind (and many others) he has proven himself incapable of being effective regardless of how we set-up or which players we select to support him.
The reason you aren't calling for Lingard, Rojo or Jones to be accommodated is that it's widely accepted they are not good enough. You wouldn't blame the manager for that. Now it's time to accept Pogba is not good enough. That doesn't mean he has no qualities whatsoever, it's just that the bad invariably outweighs the good
The main difference between them is that in Pogba case, his performance level is the farthest away from his talent level. In Bruno case, he's probably playing on his peak level.
The difference is also clear in mentality and work rate.
The difference is also clear in mentality and work rate.
The big difference between them players you mentioned is mentality. Modric and Kroos do not throw up stinkers every other week. They are not creative midfielders either as such, they are proper midfielders.
Silva and De Bruyne do not cry when they are played as a CM or LW or RW, their output is always the same. The biggest difference between those named and Pogba is work ethic, Pogba does 0 when out of possession, loses the ball by trying 2/3 skills every time he gets it.
Go check Kroos passing accuracy before comparing them players.
true, this is ridiculous!
Agreed.
Criticism of Pogba is warranted and he has to take the lion’s share of responsibility for his underperformances, but it seems to me he’s been poorly managed during his time here. Mourinho turned out to be a cancer and Ole, prior to returning to OT, had no prior experience managing superstars. Finding the right balance between tough and love for such players is massively challenging.
Pogba isn’t the only top player who’s been consistently disappointing for us. But it is on Paul to stand up and be counted...not his net worth, that is.
Pogba isn’t the only top player who’s been consistently disappointing for us. But it is on Paul to stand up and be counted...not his net worth, that is.
I'm more surprised Pogba actually has Fans
Really?
They're very different players, playing in a different system. Cities midfield looks quite vulnerable since Silva and De Bruyne stopped playing with the level of instensity they did a couple of years back (a level of intensity Pogba has never provided). Both are much better at being patient and keeping possession to limit how much defending they have to do. Casemiro and Fernandinho are much, much better players than we have access to.
Yeah. He been bang average for the most of the last 5 years. So I would be surprised at him having a strong fanboi following, considering everything else that has went on with him in that time.
Why find it strange seems to be some sort of divide amongst bruno and Pogba. Like chalk and cheese the 2 players. No competition if one is looking to go down that route.
If they was both free I think only United (fans) would pick Bruno over Pogba. But chalk and cheese. Some of our fans are so deluded it’s weird. I’m convinced no one actually knows football.
I mean our fans actually think Bruno is better than Grealish
That's rubbish. I know loads of fans of other clubs that would choose fernandes over pogba.If they was both free I think only United (fans) would pick Bruno over Pogba. But chalk and cheese. Some of our fans are so deluded it’s weird. I’m convinced no one actually knows football.
I mean our fans actually think Bruno is better than Grealish
Rightly so
Pogba is the far more naturally gifted player but you can’t argue with Bruno’s numbers. He’s effective. He can put in a 1/10 performance & still end up with a goal and an assist. There isn’t a lot of players in world football who have that knack.If they was both free I think only United (fans) would pick Bruno over Pogba. But chalk and cheese. Some of our fans are so deluded it’s weird. I’m convinced no one actually knows football.
I mean our fans actually think Bruno is better than Grealish
Who I would pick depends on the philosophy of the manager.
If I’m a team who monopolise possession like City or Bayern than I’m taking almost anyone over Bruno. Pep would be tearing his beard out if Bruno played for him. He doesn’t like low % passers. He benched Sanchez at Barca for that very reason.
I think you've chosen such a ABC metric to draw a comparison, I couldn't care less about Jones, Lingard or Rojo those are players who have never once been identified as being the best in their position. The fact your using them to contrast a commonality between Pogba is absolutely laughable. Paul for all his accolades is a World Cup winner, one of the standout midfielders in Europe at Juventus and under Ole's interim period was our best outfield player. He's been mismanaged playing as a 10 which constituted his best form, to then being used in a double pivot after his relevant success in another position.
The problem is for Solskjaer like many fans just because Pogba excels in many attributes of the midfield criteria doesn't mean he should be dispersed in any diverse position on this basis. Shades of Rooney playing central midfield isn't warranted because he can ping a ball 40 yards he's now viable to be called a deep lying playmaker this is how ridiculous many think. Ultimately this ideology is what has failed Pogba here. I acknowledge Pogba hasn't been good enough but the liability is 50 / 50 he's been underutilised by management.
So what is Pogba's best position? Where should Ole play him consistently?
That's slightly contradictory no idea what your consensus is, I'm not really interested in statistics Cleverly had great passing stats it means nothing if the context of the players influence is useless.
Kroos is just that a creative midfielder. He's been heavily criticised in the media for his defensive contribution its more as a wide known fact verses an opinion. Kroos got exposed continually under Ancelotti and Benitez. It was only when Zidane implemented Casemiro to move Toni further up the pitch that he became instrumental to the midfield of Madrid.
Again another trend two managers failing to utilise a player and another makes use of his strengths, see the pattern here ? Just because a player is versatile doesn't mean its something that every player is capable of doing. Because Kimmich can effectively play defensive midfield is the new motto that every fullback must exemplify the ability to play midfield ? Clearly no. I won't disagree with the mentality however that's beneath the issue.
The two positions that secured Ole the job either an advanced 8 or as a 10. I am critical of Pogbas poor performances down to his own responsibilities its not one or another. But the liability is also on Ole as an influence to his poor form.
I am confused. You are saying Pogba played best for Ole as a no 8 or no 10, but at the same time gave bad performances in those positions. So Ole has to take part of the blame for his poor form?
Is there a position where Pogba can be expected to always do well?
What games have you been watching ? We haven't gone near a 4 3 3 in months neither has Pogba played in front of the base of midfield since Bruno arrived. The majority of his poor performance has come from playing the double pivot the 4 2 3 1 consists of and our favoured formation.
I can see that comparison. Both capable of some great moments but not players you'd rely on to drive the team to success. Though I'd say Pogba at his worst is much worse than anything we ever saw from Berbatov. Plus you can carry a player like that a little easier when he's up top.
Who Burnley and West Ham? I’m talking about your elite clubs where you compete for top honours.
Don’t get me wrong I agree. Bruno’s numbers are unreal and great for my fantasy league. But I think Bruno is more for your underdog type team than a team that’s looking to dominate teams. He’d be great for Atletico Madrid. He’d be an icon.
I know a couple of Chelsea fans and an arsenal fan who are would happily take fernandes over pogba if they were given the choice.
But if the clubs had a choice who would the Chelsea manager and Arsenal manager take on a free?
Couple of pundits about three months ago said Klopp and Pep would not even take Pogba on a free.
Would they take Bruno? Pep needs players that don’t give the ball away and Klopp requires midfielders to actually stay in their position.
I'm not sure Pep would want either tbh.
There is no Bruno fans vs Pogba fans.
There are Pogba fans and there are normal people who don't think one player is above criticism at all costs.
There are Pogba fans and there are normal people who don't think one player is above criticism at all costs.
There’s Pogba fans because we don’t like discrimination. It’s that simple. I’m sure half the Pogba fans would actually love to just criticise him for having poor games.. but there’s always a black cloud around his critics and we all know why it is. Started from the media and has just spread. I repeat let’s hope when he leaves this doesn’t spread to Mason.
Are you insinuating that people are being racist if they criticise Pogba?There’s Pogba fans because we don’t like discrimination. It’s that simple. I’m sure half the Pogba fans would actually love to just criticise him for having poor games.. but there’s always a black cloud around his critics and we all know why it is. Started from the media and has just spread. I repeat let’s hope when he leaves this doesn’t spread to Mason.
If so then then you're an absolutely pathetic bellend. You can't claim to be anti discrimination if you then use it as a tool to belittle people out of the right to a fair opinion.