Can anything but a #10 ever be the best player of all time or even in the discussion?

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#10 is the most revered position in history. Their creativity and being the conduit to the most spectacular moments you're likely to see on a pitch is etched throughout the history of the game.

Once in a while, you have glitches in this matrix: #7's, #11's, 9's, 8's and even a #4 as well as that #14, but you're never, ever going to be able to go 1:1 for greatness with #10's throughout the game. Pele, Maradona and Messi alone kill any other collective before adding any other #10's to the mix, it's also no coincidence that we have three #10's contesting for "greatest of all time" - in the future, whoever comes along who can enter that company is most likely going to be a #10, isn't he?

Ronaldo (Brazil) is the only player outside of that grouping who I've felt had the consensus belief that a career extrapolated on his comedic, pre-injury level output could directly contest the [old] kings, but as a footballer, he is about the greatest outlier I've ever seen - it's about as realistic to see another glitch like that come along as it is to see another Messi, I think.

If we say a #9 could come along and rub shoulders with those three aforementioned #10's, what exactly would he have to do to usurp or even challenge - if quantified purely by goals, how many more than a Messi or Pele would that player have to score to offset the assumed gap in fantasy and creativity? Similarly, for a winger, just what would his output have to look like, what exactly, could a wide player do over a career to match a peak #10 doing peak #10 things? Remember, the #10 is traditionally, the most skilled, creative, visionary player there is on the pitch, so how can the best of that position be outdone by any other attacker? How would that work in terms of metrics?

It's somewhat of a rhetorical question because the answer is of course not! but can you realistically convince otherwise - do you actually believe it's possible for any other position/role to outdo the #10?
 
To the extent that we consider Messi a #10 despite playing much of his career as a wide forward/creator, I think this is true. Since scoring and creating goals will always be the hardest thing to do in football, it is hard to imagine a non-attacker ever being considered the greatest ever. And among attackers it is very likely to be a player who gets on the ball a lot and therefore has the most chances to influence matches through both scoring and creating goals. But I think that player can operate in either a classic #10/second striker role (if that ever comes back into vogue) or a wide forward/playmaker role.
 
Depends on how wide you stretch the definition of a number 10. For example, Messi's absolute peak came as a false 9 and he also excelled in multiple wing roles on the right (more dribbling-oriented in his younger days and more playmaking during the MSN era). He absolutely feels like a number 10 and he is playing as one nowadays but I'm not sure if his GOAT claim is based on his career as one.

Ronaldo, Cristiano, Beckenbauer, Best, van Basten and maybe a few others have been considered/have looked like potential GOAT candidates by some — so you have strikers, wingers/wing-forwards and even a libero. Which shows you that yeah, it's possible, especially when you speak about "being in the discussion" and not occupying the GOAT spot on their own.
 
No.

It's the most demanding and technical role around so of courtesy it will steal the spotlight.

Also I doubt you could upstage the likes of Maradona, Messi , Pele, cryuff etc etc.

Note that I'm really stretching It's definition here but the op already kinda did that with regards to Messi so I say it's fair.
 
Some will tell you that the number 10 role doesn't even exist anymore in top level modern football, at least compared to what it used to be.

I think it's too rigid to say that number 10s will always be considered best, but it's always attackers for sure. I wouldn't even consider Messi one anyway, he can and has played everywhere across the front line and has usually been his team's primary goal scorer
 
Great topic btw, and agree Ronaldo(R9) is a glitch, I don’t think we will ever see anyone other than a 10 truly be considered greatest player because that position covers both the playmaking and goalscoring side of the game when talking about the highest of levels.
 
harms said:
Depends on how wide you stretch the definition of a number 10. For example, Messi's absolute peak came as a false 9 and he also excelled in multiple wing roles on the right (more dribbling-oriented in his younger days and more playmaking during the MSN era). He absolutely feels like a number 10 and he is playing as one nowadays but I'm not sure if his GOAT claim is based on his career as one.

Ronaldo, Cristiano, Beckenbauer, Best, van Basten and maybe a few others have been considered/have looked like potential GOAT candidates by some — so you have strikers, wingers/wing-forwards and even a libero. Which shows you that yeah, it's possible, especially when you speak about "being in the discussion" and not occupying the GOAT spot on their own.
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False 9 is very similar to a 10 though no? The greatest modern false 9s in Totti and Messi are basically number 10’s for me.
 
It's the forward line players that can both create and score at a high volume that tend to be rated the highest, the ones that can roam about the entire final third and stay effective. inevitably they all get shoehorned into being called 10s at one point or other, as the term is as much a mythical mantle of being the best creative/goalscoring combo, as it is a set position on the field like fullback or centreback, but i don't think it always fits too well if you're looking at things from how teams actually played.

Messi pre-suarez was not a classic 10 positionally imo. As much as he could do it all in the final third, which makes such dinstinctions fairly meaningless in the end, he was still the furthest forward central goalscorer 90% of the time and had shitloads of games, especially against weaker teams, where there wasn't much false about him as the 9.
 
Ignoring the obvious laughable attempt at ignoring Cristiano Ronaldo, the general point should be, can anything other than an attacker be the greatest player ever? In which case the answer is no IMO. Because to be the greatest, you need the memorable moments, and an attacker will always have more memorable moments, more big moments than a midfielder, defender or goalkeeper. Should be separate awards between attack/midfield/defence/goalkeeper IMO, as it's not a fair comparison otherwise and the attackers will always win.
 
Righteous Steps said:
False 9 is very similar to a 10 though no? The greatest modern false 9s in Totti and Messi are basically number 10’s for me.
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Don't think a traditional 10 is also the main striker/goalscorer in the team. Which is what Messi was from 2011-14 (starting from Villa's injury, up till Suarez)
 
You know, Ronaldo's stock is pretty low as is nowadays instead of writing 5 paragraphs in a disguised Messi vs Ronaldo thread.

Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, there can be players outside of #10 to be the GOAT. Hypothetically, if Ronaldo had helped portugal win the 2014 world cup and the current one as the highest scorer I'm pretty sure he'd be considered as such.

Ignoring Ronaldo, you have DM's and deep lying playmakers who are equally as important. A box to box midfielder could be a future all timer.
 
bosnian_red said:
Ignoring the obvious laughable attempt at ignoring Cristiano Ronaldo, the general point should be, can anything other than an attacker be the greatest player ever? In which case the answer is no IMO. Because to be the greatest, you need the memorable moments, and an attacker will always have more memorable moments, more big moments than a midfielder, defender or goalkeeper. Should be separate awards between attack/midfield/defence/goalkeeper IMO, as it's not a fair comparison otherwise and the attackers will always win.
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I think if a player has peak Modric ability and sustains that for 14 years playing all over the middle of the pitch, it could happen.
 
shamans said:
I think if a player has peak Modric ability and sustains that for 14 years playing all over the middle of the pitch, it could happen.
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Modric is a great, just like Zidane and Iniesta and Xavi were, but they are not in the discussion for best ever. Because they aren't attackers. What more could Modric have done? The key midfielder in 5 CL wins? Multiple league titles, took a minnow country to a world cup final and semi final, won ballon d'or in the Ronaldo and Messi era, won the World Cup golden ball, incredible longevity... Modric has had arguably the best career possible for a midfielder like him, and as talented as any, and yet... he'll never be in the GOAT conversation. You have to be an attacker.
 
bosnian_red said:
Modric is a great, just like Zidane and Iniesta and Xavi were, but they are not in the discussion for best ever. Because they aren't attackers. What more could Modric have done? The key midfielder in 5 CL wins? Multiple league titles, took a minnow country to a world cup final and semi final, won ballon d'or in the Ronaldo and Messi era, won the World Cup golden ball, incredible longevity... Modric has had arguably the best career possible for a midfielder like him, and as talented as any, and yet... he'll never be in the GOAT conversation. You have to be an attacker.
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Modric moved to Madrid when he was 27. Messi, Ronaldo by the time they were 22-23 had already set the world on fire.

If Modric, like Messi, burst onto the scene as a teenage midfielder sensation, kept winning leagues for his teams + good shows in international tournaments I think they could be considered in the GOAT category but of course I won't deny that an attacker or goal scorer will always have an advantage.
 
Goals win games and the number 10 has the greatest influence on that on the pitch, and probably always will do as they both create and score.

In generations gone by it was probably the number 6 sweeper defender/defensive midfielder who was the best. Moore, Beckenbauer, all the way through to Baresi.
 
Righteous Steps said:
False 9 is very similar to a 10 though no? The greatest modern false 9s in Totti and Messi are basically number 10’s for me.
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Hence my question — it depends on how strict those definitions are. It's different roles but if you want to generalize you can try to put false 9s and supporting strikers (like Del Piero, Dalglish or Cantona) as number 10s.
 
bosnian_red said:
Modric is a great, just like Zidane and Iniesta and Xavi were, but they are not in the discussion for best ever. Because they aren't attackers. What more could Modric have done? The key midfielder in 5 CL wins? Multiple league titles, took a minnow country to a world cup final and semi final, won ballon d'or in the Ronaldo and Messi era, won the World Cup golden ball, incredible longevity... Modric has had arguably the best career possible for a midfielder like him, and as talented as any, and yet... he'll never be in the GOAT conversation. You have to be an attacker.
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It's extremely unlikely but you can compete with attackers but you have to be so, so far ahead of the rest. Beckenbauer did it but then you simply never saw any defender like him — neither before nor since.
 
An attacking midfielder who has great goal-scoring is way stepped ahead of other positions when it comes to ranking the best players of all time. Clear examples of players in this group are Platini, Zico, Maradona, and older Pele. This position can carry the attacking phase as no one else can do since they have complete skillsets like being a great passer/creator, proficient as strikers, running the game, and dictating the tempo of the game. These factors are made the number 10 the position that can carry the whole-team attacking unit and it is required players to be very skillful and have complete skill sets to be mastered it. It's a difficult position to play. So, players who are masters at this deserve to be in a top 10 list of the best players. It's also the most influential position on the pitch too.

I think the position that can challenge or even be ahead of number 10 is forward who has excellent-playmaking skills like Messi, Don Alfredo, Cruyff, Puskas, Meazza, Neymar, Baggio, and a lot. But it's similar to number 10 in that you must be a complete attacker or have every kind of attacking skill ( passing, finishing, shooting, dribbling) at the highest level. So, another position that comes close to my mind is a great goal scorer from wing-forwards/deep-lying forward, who has amazing goal-scoring records like Ronaldo(CR7), Eusebio, and Rummenigge especially Ronaldo who is the best example of this criterion.

The number 9 position is considered to be a real challenger too. A slogan that scoring can make you win the game is always important in the football game, and the main goal scorer in almost every team comes from the striker position. A lot of strikers like Ronaldo, Van Basten, Muller, and Romario are on the list of the greatest players of all time.

Defenders( full-back, center-back) can be recognized as one of the greatest players of all time if they're great enough( Baresi, Maldini, and Beckenbauer had already demonstrated it). However, they've no chance at the top 3 or 2 players of all time. Since the nature of the game has accommodated more attackers than defenders in terms of rankings. Maybe one day, I hope I can see a defender who is great enough to challenge Messi and Pele in all-time rankings. Beckenbauer had shown the world that a defender could change or impact the world.

Other positions like central midfield, goalkeeper, and wingers could be in the discussion too if they're great enough both longevity and ability. Examples are Xavi, Matthaus, and Garrincha.
 
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It's a fair question.

Why are they attackers in the first place? How do we chose our roles as kids when we're playing football in the street? Or for those who start from scratch in a more structured setting, how are they roles chosen for them and developed?

I think I've always agreed with the premise - although widening the definition to any attacker that isn't solely a poacher. Never debated it because I always assumed it would be an unpopular opinion.
 
A defender would have to contribute goals and assists, while also have clean sheets and lots of low-scoring games. Defenders only get the plaudits most of the time when none of the attackers were any good.

So you'd need a really defensive era, with constant 0-0 draws in big games with this player outstanding.

Let's say we create the perfect defender, the only way he's winning the Ballon d'Or is most likely if:

- He plays in the Premier League, anywhere else and his defending will be dismissed as farmers. This applies to defenders even more than forwards I'd say.
- His team concedes fewer than 20 goals in the Premier League, or gets close to Chelsea's 15 goals conceded record
- Extra marks if he's a ball-player, makes good game breaking charges young Frenkie De Jong style or is an excellent long passer and sets up 3-4 eye-catching goals over a season.
but also
No attacker in the league stands out - nobody scores over 25 goals in general.
- He wins the Champions League/Euros/World Cup by scoring a header/free kick in the semi-final/final as the winner, while winning the game to nil. Extra marks if he's captain of the team
- His team shuts out on forward of the time.
but also no attacker stands out that much in the tournament.

So the defender has won the Ballon d'Or... he has to go and do it again, for maybe 2-3 similar seasons to be in the discussion. And it has to be a defensive era with nobody breaking goal records. Also it's also even more reliant on your team-mates than an attacker, if one of the defenders completely fecks up and the team concedes and loses, the defender's got no chance of winning any individual awards.
 
Messi is hardly a classic 10 himself. Throughout his career he has been a classic winger, a wide forward, a false 9, an outright 9, an outright 10, and a free-role attacker who often looks like an 8. Two of his best years (11/12 and 14/15) came with him playing as a false 9 and a wide forward respectively.

So no, you don't need to be a 10 to be the best ever. I think a wide forward, a striker, or even an 8 could theoretically be the best, but the best players will usually always evolve over the course of their careers. Pele played deeper as he got older. Beckenbaur started as an 8 and finished as a sweeper. Cruyff played both as a false 9 and a winger. Ronaldo has played a number of positions and roles.
 
kouroux said:
Messi invented a position for himself. He is one of a kind
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Do you mean the false nine? If you do, that is definitely not correct. False 9's have been around since the Hungarians in the 50's, when Hidegkuti bamboozled England. Cruyff was a false 9. Pele and Tostao dovetailed as false 9's in Mexico 1970. Di Stefano was basically a false 9. Now, if you were to say Messi perfected the false 9 role, you might be on to something.
 
If we consider the definition of a 10 to include, like harms said, players like false-9s then it will be extremely difficult for a player outside of the 10/false-9 to reach the greatest tier of players. Only Fenomeno had the potential to really break into that Top 3 of all time as even other great 9s like Van Basten and Romario and Muller wouldn't quite reach that level. To break into the trio of Messi, Pele, Maradona I'd say you'd need a 9 like Fenomeno that could sustain that level for 10 years while leading sides to CL and WC champions.

As mentioned I don't think a true CM is going to reach those heights of acclaim because Xavi, Modric and Matthaus have all been about as close as a CM could get. I'd love to see some modern-day evolution of a Beckenbaer-Figueroa type libero really dominate and reach those heights but I think that's far less likely than a CM even.
 
3 greatest players ever are Pele, Maradona and Messi. Maybe not in that order. Yeah, 10 is usually given to heart of the team. Interestingly at Man Utd 7s were always the best - West, Cantona, Becs, Ronaldo. Yeah, real Ronaldo was on path to greatness as a dominant force because he was more than a forward. He was amazing dribbler, amazing technically, just a phenom.
 
I don’t know if it had to be a number 10… but the truest test in these situations, like in the case of of whether teams feel they need the Superleague, is to look at whether or not the players or the teams themselves believe the hypothesis.

If the parties directly affected and closest to it believe it, then there has to be something, right?

Which leads us to Mbappe, whose primary issue with PSG is the fact that he is used as just a striker. He wants to be seen as that dynamic, creative winger (which according to a good recent article has taken the place of true 10’s) that scores goals and creates… because he wants to be seen as the best player the world.

So if the players believe it? …..
 
Mr Smith said:
Do you mean the false nine? If you do, that is definitely not correct. False 9's have been around since the Hungarians in the 50's, when Hidegkuti bamboozled England. Cruyff was a false 9. Pele and Tostao dovetailed as false 9's in Mexico 1970. Di Stefano was basically a false 9. Now, if you were to say Messi perfected the false 9 role, you might be on to something.
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Not false 9. The Messi position
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Not being among the absolute greatest is no shame.
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Ok I was only half serious, but it feels really wrong to dismiss someone from being brought into the greatest discussions, for being the best mostly in the goal scoring area, especially with numbers that CR7 has. It is no mean feat. He may not be ranked as the greatest ever, but he still should be very much in the discussion.
I think picking only #10 is a very one sided way of looking at things.
 
I think there is too much generalization in the thread. There are very rare instances of footballers who are true #10s and who continue to play as #10s throughout their club and international careers. Over the course of a 15-year career, most goal-scoring machines would have typically played as a #9, #10, #7/11, or even a #8. For instance, if Portugal had won two world cups in recent years, this thread wouldn't have existed!
 
Ah yeah reminds of that one Captain Tsubasa quote "A number 10 is most important because you can help attack and defense". Which is bollox because to awards, the most important stat seems to be goals and then assists after that, both way ahead of other stats. If Haaland continues his goal scoring rate he will win a few Ballon D'ors ahead of Mbappe. And then the best ever discussion will lean heavily towards him because of those Ballon D'ors.
 
tenpoless said:
Ah yeah reminds of that one Captain Tsubasa quote "A number 10 is most important because you can help attack and defense". Which is bollox because to awards, the most important stat seems to be goals and then assists after that, both way ahead of other stats. If Haaland continues his goal scoring rate he will win a few Ballon D'ors ahead of Mbappe. And then the best ever discussion will lean heavily towards him because of those Ballon D'ors.
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Mbappe will probably win this one due to the WC so he'll have the head start.

Also you're talking about awards. OP is talking about the actual greatest footballer - not the G/A hype train.
 
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