Elanga came off for Casemiro. Pairing McTominay and Casemiro was a valid strategy when 1-0 up away from home in a game with half an hour to play. I don't see McTominay as a necessity if Casemiro is starting. He could play of course, but there's no guarantee he would start over Fred. Up to now, Donny has shown absolutely nothing that elevates him above Fred in the pecking order. Though I'm open to the idea of this changing under ten Hag.
Casemiro & McTominay
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
Donny isn't better than Fred in any position on a football pitch in my opinion. He has been next to useless for us, the invisible man. Least Fred has had sustained periods of form, even if he is quite up and down and has some annoying qualities.
We wrestled back control of the match (from a Leicester side playing so tamely and poorly at the moment) after Casemiro came on yesterday. I definitely see the case for sacrificing one of the wide forwards for McTominay in matches/situations where we need that control and letting Bruno do the work on the right (I think he’s better on the right than left). Otherwise, Casemiro, Eriksen, and Bruno for me.
"Casemiro, Bruno, Eriksen looks physically light weight"
Really? In a league that got dominated to record degree by Fernandinho, KDB and David Silva?
Really? In a league that got dominated to record degree by Fernandinho, KDB and David Silva?
My best guess is that we will use Casemiro + Eriksen in matches that we expect to dominate possession and do not fear the opposition's aerial threat.
In tough matches and in games in which we need extra height, we are more likely to use Casemiro + McTominay
Fred to be used as a rotation option, 2nd half sub. If he performs really well then he might take Eriksen's place but Ten Hag substituted Fred relatively early in the first two games, then dropped him after the Brentford match, so he is clearly behind at the moment.
Nothing to do with the ability of the players involved, rather the balance of the team; Fred is yet another short player in a team that has already filled its quota.
In tough matches and in games in which we need extra height, we are more likely to use Casemiro + McTominay
Fred to be used as a rotation option, 2nd half sub. If he performs really well then he might take Eriksen's place but Ten Hag substituted Fred relatively early in the first two games, then dropped him after the Brentford match, so he is clearly behind at the moment.
Nothing to do with the ability of the players involved, rather the balance of the team; Fred is yet another short player in a team that has already filled its quota.
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Yup.. people bemoan McTominays passing but Fred's weight of pass is horrendous at best and it's overlooked. He's maybe a BIT more technically able (quicker at least) and he definitely works hard but Fred is a liability with the ball.
Agree with this and glad to see the tide turning in favour of McT. He’s been unfairly written off by many, along with a number of other players, but he can be an extremely useful and effective part of the squad in my view.
Ideally you need a good passer like Eriksen next to Casemiero
So what I see are multiple combinations depending on the opponent and availability. This is not a bad problem to have. Scott and Fred may not be everyone's cup of tea for whatever reasons, they do fit into various configurations. And Donny is still the odd man out.
Yes McSauce has surprised me. The lad has been very very good. We will be rotating quite a bit though
Neither McT nor Fred are DMs, that's the whole problem. Casemiro may replace McT in that position but it's really freeing Scott to play his prefered position, CM.
Fred's positioning is poor, and he's error prone, more of a problem for ETH's style than others, but I would expect Eriksen to beat Scott and Fred for that spot.
I think Eriksen/McT/Casemiro might win out because they're better at holding the ball than Bruno/Eriksen/Casemiro. But more likely ETH will get Bruno to adapt successfully. ETH looks to be doing a great job so far one he switched out most of the back line.
I think you need to look into the assets available.
Assuming same formation, and the same best 11 available, and all players fit including Casemiro who may be 30-90min short on match fitness.
If Eriksen starts as in current position, then Casemiro replaces McTom.
But if Eriksen not available, then Casemiro + McTom might be good combo, if aerial threat is high, and McTom can be the water boy.
Consider Fred's weakness - short, physically weak. McTom offers better option, unless both Eriksen and Casemiro are not available, then Fred's passing skill is essential.
Assuming same formation, and the same best 11 available, and all players fit including Casemiro who may be 30-90min short on match fitness.
If Eriksen starts as in current position, then Casemiro replaces McTom.
But if Eriksen not available, then Casemiro + McTom might be good combo, if aerial threat is high, and McTom can be the water boy.
Consider Fred's weakness - short, physically weak. McTom offers better option, unless both Eriksen and Casemiro are not available, then Fred's passing skill is essential.
Think ETH lost some faith with Fred after his dismal showings in the first two league games, so Fred will have to win back faith with some good showings when he gets an opportunity to be in the running. McTominay meanwhile has put in a couple very good performances since.
McTominay and Casemiro may be seen as too defensive, but perfect match to try it would be vs Arsenal. Think Eriksen needs a rest anyway. Its a very solid base which is useful when we still have a slightly dysfunctional attack prone to losing the ball.
McTominay and Casemiro may be seen as too defensive, but perfect match to try it would be vs Arsenal. Think Eriksen needs a rest anyway. Its a very solid base which is useful when we still have a slightly dysfunctional attack prone to losing the ball.
Ten Hag seems to place great importance in understanding the system and team-mates, so it makes sense for Casemiro to be bedded in to the squad. You can see an improvement in his understanding of how Ten Hag want to play. It's good for his confidence and also the team's when it comes to meritocracy. There'll be games where McT will be found out, as many posters here should know by now.
If my thesis is correct, expect Antony to start next week.
If my thesis is correct, expect Antony to start next week.
Eriksen has covered for McT's shortfalls very well so he will almost definitely start. But yes, McT's played relatively well by his standards.
It should be McT - Casemiro, proper order.
I think the eight other players City have on the pitch also helped.
You can't get away with a lightweight midfield if the rest of your team is poor in possession. Especially the front three.
Agree 100%
Let’s have a proper look at Casemiro and Eriksen together. That provides much better balance than Casemiro and McT for most matches. Bruno can be a bit wasteful but the solution is not to bring in McT.
Looking at the options, it does show that we are lacking a ball-playing 8 (or 6/8 hybrid) and obviously why we stayed in for FDJ. Eriksen is the fill-in option for FDJ; McT can’t do it.
Casemiro can also do what we've tasked Eriksen with in the last few games, which is playing out from the back and getting the ball forwards, with far superior defensive ability. I'm sure he and Eriksen will play a lot together, but certain games we will pribably play two more defensive mids (inevitably, as Eriksen simply won't play every game, and won't always play as a CM when he plays, and our two other CMs are far more defensive). Arsenal game would be logical to start Casemiro together with McTominay (or Fred, potentially) given the number of matches in short time span and strength of the opposition. Eriksen may end up starting, but its far from definite. I think it's just as likely ETH will pick an unchanged side again. We don't know him well enough yet to predict what he will do with any accuracy. In the longer term, we may even see Eriksen play more as a 10. We may eventually move back to a 433, but I think the latter option is hindered by Bruno who is far better in a 4231 and as of now we are still heavily reliant on Bruno's creativity, so until the whole team starts creating and scoring more I don't see it as an option. Who knows. Maybe ETH will randomly decide to pick VDB for the Arsenal game, or play McTominay at RB, or play Eriksen as a false 9. He's an unknown quantity still.
We shouldn't need two defensive-minded mids. If Scott can perform a ball playing b2b role, I'm all for it.
This is definitely true. It's far easier to have a lightweight midfield when you're getting more than two-thirds possession almost every game.
Against Southampton we had 52% and when they were starting to overrun us in midfield Casemiro came on alongside McTominay. The same happened against Leicester where we had 46% possession, which somewhat changed the game. Against Liverpool we had 29% with Fred coming on to sure things up, again alongside McTominay.
These are all games where we've started strongly with a lightweight midfield but have faded. As soon as that has happened the midfield of Eriksen and Fernandes has looked exposed; partly because the latter, along with Rashford and Elanga are poor at keeping possession and partly because the likes of Rashford, Eriksen and Sancho (amongst others) haven't got the fitness to play 90 mins to the managers tempo.
Fortunately Ten Hag has been quick to see the game change and has changed the team to suit. However it'll be more of a test with this midfield where the opposition starts really well and/or we start poorly and our midfield is overrun early on.
See I reckon if Mct keeps his form up and improves then he will be a starter. He actually offers quite a lot defensively as well as offensively. He's not a dictator of play for sure, but there is potentially a very good b2b player in there and tactically his ability to drop into cb when the cbs are dragged wide, his height at set pieces, theres a good chance he becomes a starter. If Casemiro's passing is as good as we think then I can see him taking Eriksens spot.
Mctominy v leicester:
40 passes, 82.5% completion, 1 key pass, 0 shots, 2 dribbles, 1 clearance, 2 tackles, 2 interceptions, 2 blocks
Eriksen v leicester:
59 passes, 81% completion, 0 key passes, 2 shots, 0 dribbles, 0 clearances, 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, 0 blocks
Mct had a better overall game. People may point to the amount of passes they played which is fair but mct's role is less of a dictator of play which is eriksen's role.
Lets compare that to leicester's midfield:
Tielemans:
65 passes, 81% completion, 2 key passes, 0 shots, 1 dribble, 1 clearance, 3 tackles, 1 interception, 0 blocks
Soumare:
48 passes, 83% completion, 0 key passes, 0 dribbles, 0 clearance, 5 tackles, 0 interceptions, 0 blocks
Mct can up the amount of passes he makes and maybe he will develop that side of his game, maybe not but so far under EtH gor the first time in his career I warming to mct.
It can be the same formation with Bruno replacing Rashford/Antony/Sancho (we need at least one of these three along with Martial/Ronaldo). We would create a lot of chances and have control and balance in the middle with Casemiro McT and Eriksen.
It’s early days but I wonder how much of his improved play is due to ten Hag’s coaching. He seems like the kind of lad who takes on instruction really well. It could also just be more maturity/experience or having the likes of Eriksen and Casemiro around to guide him. Or a purple patch.
I can see why Ten Hag went after De Jong instead of a DM like everybody wanted. He’s found a way to shore up the midfield and our weak defensive structure without one.
Of course Casemiro will reinforce that but FDJ from deep doesn’t look so risky now
Of course Casemiro will reinforce that but FDJ from deep doesn’t look so risky now
I like the McTominay-Casemiro midfield duo.
The main reason McT doesn’t make many passes is because he doesn’t know how to make himself available for passes and lacks the technique to receive in tight areas. So you can’t just look at his stats in isolation, you have to consider the pressure that his skill profile puts onto the other players - the whole team and especially CM needs to be able to provide passing options for each other. McTominay can’t solve this by just “upping his passes” he would need to completely transform.
Now this is not intended to dismiss McTominay altogether but we can’t ask him to be a different player. Instead we can ask him to do what he’s good at and to get better at doing that. Sometimes we will need a tall, physical guy who has the ability to carry the ball. He also has a decent shot on him and with the right licence can get into the box and provide a goal threat. He’s not useless and there will matches and game situations where he will contribute.
When he does play, I agree it’s preferable to be with Casemiro with Eriksen ahead of them but we must accept we will lose something in possession, control and creativity from deep.
It depends on how much McT's physicality and height matters to the team. When we're playing Martinez and Malacia, we're lacking height at the back. With both of them playing, it might mean that McT has to play. We didn't spend so much on Casmeiro to bench him, so he has to come in. If we play both, Bruno or Eriksen need to drop to the bench.
A pivot of Casemiro and McT is hindering us in possession. We're going to lose even more control in midfield. We've already had problems controlling games with Eriksen and Bruno playing together. I can't imagine ETH envisioned a Casemiro/McT midfield before taking on the job.
I don't think that this midfield is balanced. McT struggles to position and make himself available for passes. He is the worst midfielder we have at this, and this is one of the most important skillsets needed for a midfielder. He has played well recently, but it's mostly due to the defensive side of his game that's been good. He deservers praise for that, but we need more from him if he's going to play as our #8.
If Eriksen can continue doing a good job as the #8, I would like to see him and Casemiro play as our pivot players. I don't think any of the options we have are really optimal.
A pivot of Casemiro and McT is hindering us in possession. We're going to lose even more control in midfield. We've already had problems controlling games with Eriksen and Bruno playing together. I can't imagine ETH envisioned a Casemiro/McT midfield before taking on the job.
I don't think that this midfield is balanced. McT struggles to position and make himself available for passes. He is the worst midfielder we have at this, and this is one of the most important skillsets needed for a midfielder. He has played well recently, but it's mostly due to the defensive side of his game that's been good. He deservers praise for that, but we need more from him if he's going to play as our #8.
If Eriksen can continue doing a good job as the #8, I would like to see him and Casemiro play as our pivot players. I don't think any of the options we have are really optimal.
Agreed spot on!
Ha, it should never be uttered! It’s just a more solid (50% less clueless) version of McFred.
McMiro?
God help us. But it does roll off the tongue.
That makes sense in the way that McTominay is better in a box-to-box role than he is being the most defensive midfielder. But I don't see it playing out that way, simply because Bruno, Eriksen and Fred are all significantly to hugely better football players than he is.
——————Casemiro—————
Sancho—-Eriksen——Anthony
—Rashford/CR7—Bruno———
Sancho—-Eriksen——Anthony
—Rashford/CR7—Bruno———
McT is technically inferior but offers something different. We have pretty good options but we really did need FDJ or someone similar.
Agree with this but it has to be noted that Eriksen doesn't have the stamina to last the whole 90 so maybe a premeditated change at around 60 minutes to shut uut the opposition. If McT could improve his passing he would be an acceptable parter for Casemiro because the two of them give you the physicality needed to overrun teams in the middle.
If Shaw was to return to form and Martinez grow into his playmaking CB role I think the latter playing a sort of libero role could make up for the lack of creative passing in a McCase midfield duo. Shaw is also a pretty good progressor of the ball from deep so the two of them could help us out in that regard.
Do we think Eriksen will never again have enough stamina to last a whole match?
I don't see why not. He's covered more ground per 90 than anyone else at United this season.
Nothing can make up for a lack of passing in a central midfield duo. And why would McT suddenly improve his passing?
Just because he's just had one good and one decent game, that doesn't change the basic fact that he is a less good football player than Fred or Christian Eriksen. Bruno I'm not even going to mention in this context, because that would be absurd. He's had truckloads of opportunity over the past few seasons through lack of a better alternative, without as far as I can see having grown or developed much as a player - he has largely the same pluses and limitations today as he had 2 years ago. He's still hiding from the ball, he still isn't reading defensive situations well, he's still a slow and suspect decision maker and he's still an unreliable passer (though in fairness not as bad as some would have it, I think).