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Changes in CL format

giorno

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So wait. You think a league among the most supported european clubs, in a sport where around 80% of the global fanbase is concentrated in around 20 clubs or so, of which 50% is specifically concentrated on ~10 european clubs and the remaining 30% of it is mostly interested in those very same clubs as far as european football is concerned, would fail

Manchester United could leave the PL tomorrow and half the tv money would follow them on the way out. Superleague is happening and it will be a massive moneymaker. Make your peace with it people
 

giorno

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Of course we like to see the big boys up against each other, but it has also started to become too boring/predictable with the same teams meeting over and over, and I'm getting quite sick of the race for top 4 too.
The Champions League keeps raking in more money than ever. Clearly, it works
 

youngrell

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The Champions League keeps raking in more money than ever. Clearly, it works
I didn't say it doesn't work, I said it was getting boring.

It will clearly continue to make money because all the best supported teams in the world are in it routinely. How much money it makes isn't the only measuring stick for its success. It is sport, after all.
 

SilentWitness

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Why do they always want to change formats that work really well?
 

Stocar

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I would prefer it to be a real cup competition, as sort of a prestigious reward for genuine champions, as it once was. But if that's not possible, then bring on the super league.
 

giorno

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I didn't say it doesn't work, I said it was getting boring.
That's the point. If it keeps getting more valuable, that means fan interest is also growing. Hence, while you are starting to find it boring, the vast majority of people are not. And that's what both ECA and UEFA look to

It will clearly continue to make money because all the best supported teams in the world are in it routinely. How much money it makes isn't the only measuring stick for its success. It is sport, after all.
If it keeps churning out money that means a lot of people follow it. Which would make it a success
 

youngrell

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That's the point. If it keeps getting more valuable, that means fan interest is also growing. Hence, while you are starting to find it boring, the vast majority of people are not. And that's what both ECA and UEFA look to

If it keeps churning out money that means a lot of people follow it. Which would make it a success
Do you not think that fan interest grows because more people are becoming 'fans' of these clubs who are always in the spotlight? The way it is going, there will be little incentive in supporting anyone outside the top 6-8 clubs in Europe.

Its time football looked after itself as a whole rather than the top dogs only. Otherwise, every league in Europe is going to become like the Scottish PL. Germany and Italy are close to this already.
 

adexkola

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So wait. You think a league among the most supported european clubs, in a sport where around 80% of the global fanbase is concentrated in around 20 clubs or so, of which 50% is specifically concentrated on ~10 european clubs and the remaining 30% of it is mostly interested in those very same clubs as far as european football is concerned, would fail

Manchester United could leave the PL tomorrow and half the tv money would follow them on the way out. Superleague is happening and it will be a massive moneymaker. Make your peace with it people
Yeah. I don't view the success of big clubs as separate from the leagues and structures they come from.

I'm not agitated by it. I'm at peace with dropping support for a club that decides to join in such a venture. Hope the casuals in Shanghai and Dubai and Miami enjoy it as long as it lasts.
 

stepic

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as kinda bad as this idea is, it's not half as bad as some of the ideas in this thread:

A Chinese style "maximum of four foreigners per squad" kind of thing... If you're going to do European football, make it interesting FFS. Make it England vs Spain, not the current multicultural bore fest it's become.
yeah, because everyone wants to see a United with De Gea, Pogba, Martial, Lindelof and the rest all
English players of varying quality. it would be shite.

Maybe the big clubs all split their squads so they play only British players in the domestic league and only foreign players in the CL (Irish can play where they want, why not). That could be interesting, a horrible bloody mess, but an interesting one.
it wouldn't be interesting, it would be absolute shite. like foreign players are going to sign for a club if they can only play a handful of CL games per year.

There are quite a few positives to going back to the old format. The biggest negative for everyone involved is loss of money for the big boys, but boo hoo for them.
a CL with no United, Madrid, Dortmund, Milan, Liverpool, Chelsea every year... sounds shite.

i kinda like trying new things out, so i'd give a new format a go for a season or two, just for kicks. but ultimately the current system is generally fine.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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as kinda bad as this idea is, it's not half as bad as some of the ideas in this thread:



yeah, because everyone wants to see a United with De Gea, Pogba, Martial, Lindelof and the rest all
English players of varying quality. it would be shite.



it wouldn't be interesting, it would be absolute shite. like foreign players are going to sign for a club if they can only play a handful of CL games per year.



a CL with no United, Madrid, Dortmund, Milan, Liverpool, Chelsea every year... sounds shite.

i kinda like trying new things out, so i'd give a new format a go for a season or two, just for kicks. but ultimately the current system is generally fine.
I'm aware, it's an absolute no-go, just like this proposal as far as I'm concerned.
 

giorno

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Do you not think that fan interest grows because more people are becoming 'fans' of these clubs who are always in the spotlight? The way it is going, there will be little incentive in supporting anyone outside the top 6-8 clubs in Europe.
When was this ever not the case?

Its time football looked after itself as a whole rather than the top dogs only. Otherwise, every league in Europe is going to become like the Scottish PL. Germany and Italy are close to this already.
Hence why the superleague is inevitable. What you're talking about is clubs such as manchester united willingly reduce their own size and financial power(to, let's say, west ham's) to help Brighton maybe becoming of similar size 10-20 years down the line

No, it's too late for that

Hope the casuals in Shanghai and Dubai and Miami enjoy it as long as it lasts.
See, the thing is the vast majority of mancunians aren't going to stop supporting the club either. You say as long as it lasts - it will last for as long as the sport remains so popular.
 

youngrell

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When was this ever not the case?


Hence why the superleague is inevitable. What you're talking about is clubs such as manchester united willingly reduce their own size and financial power(to, let's say, west ham's) to help Brighton maybe becoming of similar size 10-20 years down the line

No, it's too late for that


See, the thing is the vast majority of mancunians aren't going to stop supporting the club either. You say as long as it lasts - it will last for as long as the sport remains so popular.
It just seems the focus is narrowing year on year, until, like you say, all that's left is some kind of super league of the biggest dozen clubs at most.

I don't want big clubs to necessarily reduce in size, but I also don't think they should be handed a platform on a golden platter to further increase their advantage.
 

adexkola

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See, the thing is the vast majority of mancunians aren't going to stop supporting the club either. You say as long as it lasts - it will last for as long as the sport remains so popular.
I won't begrudge them. But this isn't being done for them. It's being done for the casuals for Shanghai and co. Y'all can have that.

It'll be fun following the rest of football "left behind" by this.
 
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Much more fun watching the champions of Lithuania or whoever than the 2nd placed team from Spain. :rolleyes:
To Lithuanians, it definitely is. You're not saying Lithuanians are too inferior a people to deserve being allowed to root for their own teams?


Viewers prefer to have an emotional stake in watching their team defeat other teams. Are you really more involved in watching the 4th placed Spanish team play the fouth of Serie A, than you are seeing your own team or countrymen play say... "the champion of Country X"? I bet you only watch the highlights of the first, if that.

Unless the results of the game had been epic. Like how Real Madrid - Ajax was received and made headlines all over the world, exactly because it was a high rated Spanish team being kicked out by a supposedly chanceless team. Will you remember a 3-0 win by Tottenham over Dortmund from that same night, or a 1-4 victory over Real Madrid by a small team nobody thought could win because of having a tenth in budget?


Sadly arrogance leads bigger countries to think they're automatically entitled to a bigger share of the pie to the point the rest can't even get to fight over the crumbs, because they're not allowed to participate. In the real world, this is called corruption. In the minds of people like yourself, it's "only logical that superior competitions get superior representation and superior parts of the pie to ensure we not just stay, but become even more superior".


How would you feel if your country's teams could never even attempt to play for the biggest cup in Europe? Just for fun, imagine no Spanish, Italian or English teams participating in Europe for 20 years. Imagine you being a fan having to root for teams you have no personal connection with whatsoever, no rivalry towards whatsoever. Now imagine living in one of these small countries and being snubbed at, because you haven't won anything in 40 years, even though you havn't been allowed to participate in 40 years because you're too small. It's a case of the rich enriching the rich and trodding on the little guy.

Knock-out cups are fun, exactly because cup fighters can rise above themselves over two matches, which they likely couldn't repeat in a longer competition. Hence why we have Willem II (position 10/18 in the Eredivisie) in the Dutch cup finals and a team like Calais RUFC (sadly Calais RUFC, a team in 2000 consisting of teachers, dock workers and office clerks) made it to the French cup finals in 2000 (lost to Nantes 1-2, despite leading 1-0). Bankrupt, Calais was liquidated in 2017 over a few hundred thousand debt.

But yay we get to see teams with half a billion in debt win in the CL in no small thanks to buying players with their massive, unchecked debts. Debts that nobody adresses despite "financial fairplay"! Such funs for the neutral observer that corrupt money wins by default... Great messaging too:

"If you're not rich, you don't matter".
"If you're not already entitled, don't bother, because you're not going to be given a chance to succeed."
"Nobody likes you because you're poor/small."
"If you don't already have a tradition of winning, why should you become one of the potential winners?"
"If you're from nation X you're a lesser person than if you're from nation A."
"Everyone's equal, but Brits, Italians and Spanish are more equal."

That's what sportsmanship is about according to you, right? Who got the most money? Should we also just tell 95% of the Olympic contestants to sod off then? Because hey, who watches the Olympics when non-rich people can partake?


Anyway. The idea of these bigger CL groups is simply to ensure that the teams with most money stand a better chance of not being knocked out due to a fluke failure. The less matches there are, the less chance they have of correcting their point losses and the more unpredictable results will be. Predictability is bad for emotion. I would say this change is a horrendous proposal designed to stifle competition. It's another Coup d'État by the bigger teams, possibly a Coup de Grace for smaller clubs who'll have no chance left to compete. Even if they manage unicorn epic wins against a team they normally wouldn't beat considering finances.

Awful idea. Champions League for champions I say, both big and small. Knock-out rounds only. No preferential seeding. Pure chance.
 

King7Eric

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Yeah. I don't view the success of big clubs as separate from the leagues and structures they come from.

I'm not agitated by it. I'm at peace with dropping support for a club that decides to join in such a venture. Hope the casuals in Shanghai and Dubai and Miami enjoy it as long as it lasts.
You are a weird "fan". How do you decide one fine morning to stop supporting the club? What has this moralistic egalitarian utopia you envision got to do with supporting your team? Do you want your team to lose matches against smaller clubs so that the league has a more level playing field? Its a weird view, at least for me.
 

adexkola

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You are a weird "fan". How do you decide one fine morning to stop supporting the club? What has this moralistic egalitarian utopia you envision got to do with supporting your team? Do you want your team to lose matches against smaller clubs so that the league has a more level playing field? Its a weird view, at least for me.
I'm leaning between telling you to jog on*, and giving you a reasonable reply.

*substitute for another phrase
 

King7Eric

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I'm leaning between telling you to jog on*, and giving you a reasonable reply.

*substitute for another phrase
Try giving a reasonable response for now, I'm gonna jog on later tonight anyway.
 

brian017

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With the upcoming changes to the WC and if this comes to fruition I fear my love of football will die. They don't care about the fans anymore its all about the $$$
 

adexkola

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Try giving a reasonable response for now, I'm gonna jog on later tonight anyway.
:lol: fair enough

How do you decide one fine morning to stop supporting the club?
I don't think it's an outright renounciation of support for Manchester United. It's not supporting a competition that goes against the ideals of the sport in pursuit of money. If my club decides to forgo domestic and normal European competition in favor of this cabal, I wouldn't be able to support it.

What has this moralistic egalitarian utopia you envision got to do with supporting your team?
I can't support a team complicit in a system that is highly unfair. I'm conflicted enough in the current system, but at least in theory a club from the bottom has the opportunity to make it all the way to the top. This proposal goes too far for me.

Do you want your team to lose matches against smaller clubs so that the league has a more level playing field?
No. I want differences in quality to be determined by good management and scouting, not the sheer amount of money a club spends. And I want my team to be the best in such a framework.
 

FlawlessThaw

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To Lithuanians, it definitely is. You're not saying Lithuanians are too inferior a people to deserve being allowed to root for their own teams?
Are you absolutely certain that most Lithuanians would prefer to see FK Suduva play on TV than Real Madrid?
 

Hughie77

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It's not a bad idea, as Europa league is poor, and to long, but saying that CL, will be longer as well, so double edge sword, it's a way of introducing the European super league, but Uefa have the monopoly on it. See how this pans out.
 

Dutsey

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Football will eventually eat itself. Domestic competition should always be the no 1. priority. This will lose alot of local fans and then the shiny product wouldnt look half as good.
 

King7Eric

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:lol: fair enough



I don't think it's an outright renounciation of support for Manchester United. It's not supporting a competition that goes against the ideals of the sport in pursuit of money. If my club decides to forgo domestic and normal European competition in favor of this cabal, I wouldn't be able to support it.



I can't support a team complicit in a system that is highly unfair. I'm conflicted enough in the current system, but at least in theory a club from the bottom has the opportunity to make it all the way to the top. This proposal goes too far for me.



No. I want differences in quality to be determined by good management and scouting, not the sheer amount of money a club spends. And I want my team to be the best in such a framework.
But surely even you have to concede that at present the clubs that spend the most money are invariably gonna be the most successful. PSG, Juve, Bayern, City, heck even Celtic are all prime example of it. The richest will always dominate. Sure you can get aberrations now and then but the general principle remains the same.

Every sporting competition is in pursuit of money. Do you think any sportsman is gonna play if they are asked to play every game for free? Sporting institutions are no different from any other business, they run on profit and the moment any other similar institution starts to out earn them, their days start getting numbered. Its all about entertainment. In UEFA's eyes these matches will sell more than a BATE Borisov vs CFR Cluj and you can't fault their reasoning. You have to understand only a small minority of fans are actually able to go to the stadiums to support their teams, for the rest the only avenue to watch their heroes in action is on TV. And the TV or internet brigade far outnumbers the match goers in this day and age. No longer are the clubs biggest source of revenue the match day tickets, so its only natural they will look towards the fanbase that earns them the most money. A Real Madrid vs Man Utd match is always gonna attract more eyes on the TV, even if it is happening every year.

You can't expect a business to start catering to moral whims ( seeing as how they aren't doing anything illegal) that is going to prevent it from earning more money. The day these clubs feel they'll earn more money by not being in this European league, they'll leave it without a second thought.

Edit- Regarding your last point, good management and scouting means nothing without money. You make Guardiola the manager of Huddersfield and they'd still get relegated. A good manager or scout isn't gonna do their job for less than what they are worth. They will ultimately gravitate to clubs they feel will pay them what they deserve, and everyone feels they deserve more than they are getting.
 

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feckin stupid idea. The top teams are guaranteed CL participation with the current format. If you can't make top4 in yout league you are not good enough for the cl. The only improvement I can think is to add 8 teams more to the CL and make ro16 in the CL (same as Europa League) because the mid-level-leagues and small-leagues doesn't have too much participation and they deserve to be in the CL too. (right now 16 spots of 32 in the group stages are taken by germany, england, spain and italy)
 

adexkola

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But surely even you have to concede that at present the clubs that spend the most money are invariably gonna be the most successful. PSG, Juve, Bayern, City, heck even Celtic are all prime example of it. The richest will always dominate. Sure you can get aberrations now and then but the general principle remains the same.
Yes. And I would like that to change.

Every sporting competition is in pursuit of money. Do you think any sportsman is gonna play if they are asked to play every game for free? Sporting institutions are no different from any other business, they run on profit and the moment any other similar institution starts to out earn them, their days start getting numbered. Its all about entertainment. In UEFA's eyes these matches will sell more than a BATE Borisov vs CFR Cluj and you can't fault their reasoning. You have to understand only a small minority of fans are actually able to go to the stadiums to support their teams, for the rest the only avenue to watch their heroes in action is on TV. And the TV or internet brigade far outnumbers the match goers in this day and age. No longer are the clubs biggest source of revenue the match day tickets, so its only natural they will look towards the fanbase that earns them the most money. A Real Madrid vs Man Utd match is always gonna attract more eyes on the TV, even if it is happening every year.
I have no issue with money, or sportsmen being compensated for their efforts. Rather them than owners. I'm not sure why you think I want them to play for free.

There would be no football without the match-going fans. No one wants to watch Manchester United play against Real Madrid in an empty stadium. And the match-going fans were there before the TV and glitz. In my opinion there is a hierarchy here and it isn't the TV fan in Shanghai. That the sport is pivoting towards the TV fans in contempt of the match-going fans in base countries is indicative of where the sport (not business) is going. The business is going great. feck the business.

You can't expect a business to start catering to moral whims ( seeing as how they aren't doing anything illegal) that is going to prevent it from earning more money. The day these clubs feel they'll earn more money by not being in this European league, they'll leave it without a second thought.
I'm sure Manchester United could probably earn more money by forgoing domestic competition and going on the road ala the Harlem Globetrotters. There's a reason why they haven't.

Edit- Regarding your last point, good management and scouting means nothing without money. You make Guardiola the manager of Huddersfield and they'd still get relegated. A good manager or scout isn't gonna do their job for less than what they are worth. They will ultimately gravitate to clubs they feel will pay them what they deserve, and everyone feels they deserve more than they are getting.
I'm not against money in the game. I'm against extreme polarization caused by money excesses held by a few clubs. In a more equitable environment (where there is still plenty of money, just less excesses) there is room for geniuses like Guardiola et al to work their magic.
 

King7Eric

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Yes. And I would like that to change.



I have no issue with money, or sportsmen being compensated for their efforts. Rather them than owners. I'm not sure why you think I want them to play for free.

There would be no football without the match-going fans. No one wants to watch Manchester United play against Real Madrid in an empty stadium. And the match-going fans were there before the TV and glitz. In my opinion there is a hierarchy here and it isn't the TV fan in Shanghai. That the sport is pivoting towards the TV fans in contempt of the match-going fans in base countries is indicative of where the sport (not business) is going. The business is going great. feck the business.



I'm sure Manchester United could probably earn more money by forgoing domestic competition and going on the road ala the Harlem Globetrotters. There's a reason why they haven't.



I'm not against money in the game. I'm against extreme polarization caused by money excesses held by a few clubs. In a more equitable environment (where there is still plenty of money, just less excesses) there is room for geniuses like Guardiola et al to work their magic.
Extreme polarization is already there. In the last 15 years you could count on one hand the number of teams that have won their respective domestic leagues ( talking about big leagues here). This is the inevitable next stage of how club football evolves. I get most of your arguments but that wasn't my point of contention with you. You think structure of club football is unfair and I agree with you but it's kinda been this way in the last 2 decades anyway.

My point of contention was you saying you won't be following Utd any more. That is what I can't understand. An affiliation with a club is a lifelong attachment, innit? Whether we are playing Real Madrid or Reading I can't fathom not wanting to watch the match, especially over something that isn't exactly any one club's fault, it's simply the way the game is going.
 

adexkola

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Extreme polarization is already there. In the last 15 years you could count on one hand the number of teams that have won their respective domestic leagues ( talking about big leagues here). This is the inevitable next stage of how club football evolves. I get most of your arguments but that wasn't my point of contention with you. You think structure of club football is unfair and I agree with you but it's kinda been this way in the last 2 decades anyway.

My point of contention was you saying you won't be following Utd any more. That is what I can't understand. An affiliation with a club is a lifelong attachment, innit? Whether we are playing Real Madrid or Reading I can't fathom not wanting to watch the match, especially over something that isn't exactly any one club's fault, it's simply the way the game is going.
It is. And I wouldn't be able to stomach further polarization. UEFA and FIFA shouldn't be subservient to the whims of the big clubs. Their charter covers football in it's entirety, and I am not sure how their mission is served by aiding further stratification, where small clubs can't dream of one day becoming big clubs.

I'm not sure why it rubs you the wrong way. People on here have said they would stop supporting the club if the House of Saud take over the club. Would you continue supporting the club if we were fixing games and paying referees off? I'm sure you have a limit where you would walk away. If not, fair enough. The above posts indicate my limit. I wouldn't hop over to the next club. I'd just follow football as a sport (not business) from a distance. Maybe grassroots or something.
 

King7Eric

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It is. And I wouldn't be able to stomach further polarization. UEFA and FIFA shouldn't be subservient to the whims of the big clubs. Their charter covers football in it's entirety, and I am not sure how their mission is served by aiding further stratification, where small clubs can't dream of one day becoming big clubs.

I'm not sure why it rubs you the wrong way. People on here have said they would stop supporting the club if the House of Saud take over the club. Would you continue supporting the club if we were fixing games and paying referees off? I'm sure you have a limit where you would walk away. If not, fair enough. The above posts indicate my limit. I wouldn't hop over to the next club. I'd just follow football as a sport (not business) from a distance. Maybe grassroots or something.
Fair enough I guess. To each their own. Maybe I have that limit you speak of, but I don't know it yet. For instance I'm vehemently opposed to the Saudis buying is but I don't think I'll be able to sever all ties with the club if it happens. Maybe you're just a stronger man than I am. :)
 

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Best for football is not their interest, we all could guess the cnuts pushing for this.
 

adexkola

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Fair enough I guess. To each their own. Maybe I have that limit you speak of, but I don't know it yet. For instance I'm vehemently opposed to the Saudis buying is but I don't think I'll be able to sever all ties with the club if it happens. Maybe you're just a stronger man than I am. :)
Nah, you actually jog!

The PL released a statement saying they are all opposed to the idea. Time will tell if they eventually break.
 

adexkola

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"In England, football plays an important role in our culture and everyday life. Millions of fans attend matches across the country, with allegiances and local rivalries often passed down through generations. We have a fantastic combination of competitive football and committed fans that we will vigorously defend."

Hear hear
 

Steerpike

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The fact that there are "mega clubs" and that they have more power than national FAs is exactly what's wrong with the game.

Greed, greed, and more greed.
I agree. The attraction of sport generally is that success is achieved through the efforts of the competitors, and it's great when supposed outsiders gatecrash the party. In football nowadays, it happens all too rarely: the concentration of resources in a few mega rich clubs means that the playing field is now less level than it has ever been.

This proposal is just another blatant example of the rich clubs seeking to protect their hegemony, and any true sports fan should be appalled. Success or failure should depend only on what happens on the field, and no club should be under the illusion that it is entitled to a place in the top competition simply because of who they are.

While this proposal doesn't directly suggest a closed, or semi-closed, European Super League, it would bring it closer to being a reality. Should that happen I, and plenty more I suspect, will lose all interest.
 

Gjx

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Much more fun watching the champions of Lithuania or whoever than the 2nd placed team from Spain. :rolleyes:
It would be, I'd sooner see the champions of each UEFA nation (with a few whittled out in prelims) play in a true champions league. Would spread the money out further and encourage more investment in the "lesser leagues" as there is a bigger carrot being dangled for domestic success.

Bring back the cup winners cup and vastly improve the quality of the Europa league by not handing also rans a place in the champions league, giving it some prestige again and a lot of football fans would be very happy.
 

robinamicrowave

Wanted to be bran, ended up being littlefinger
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Hope this happens so I can stop caring about elite football, to be honest.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
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How exactly do they plan on fitting a 14 game league part in when there's only 6 games currently, and the schedule is already jam packed?
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
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Premier League already up in arms.
Can understand why, as we're already at the head of the gravy train of the highest money makers.
The rest of Europe wants in, and the best way to do that is through this sort of messing about.