Cheering on Liverpool - 2017/18 edition
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
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Heh. Liverpool have conceded more than 1 goal 6 times this season. Have kept 9 clean sheets. Lost 2 games.
Their Home/Away splits:
Pts 26 Games 12 Record 7W 5D 0L GF 25 GA 7
Pts 21 Games 11 Record 6W 3D 2L GF 29 GA 21
Don't think Klopp's lack of pragmatism has been much of a problem so far. They are were they wanted/expected to be at the beginning of the season.
They need better players, of course. They're working on it. They don't have the resources to sign De Bruyne and Sterling in the same window, not without selling first.
Btw, United's splits are almost identical. Klopp needs to be more pragmatic just as much as Mourinho needs to be more daring. In truth the problem in both cases is the quality of the team
Maybe it's just me but i think they'll challenge for the title next season
Their Home/Away splits:
Pts 26 Games 12 Record 7W 5D 0L GF 25 GA 7
Pts 21 Games 11 Record 6W 3D 2L GF 29 GA 21
Don't think Klopp's lack of pragmatism has been much of a problem so far. They are were they wanted/expected to be at the beginning of the season.
They need better players, of course. They're working on it. They don't have the resources to sign De Bruyne and Sterling in the same window, not without selling first.
Btw, United's splits are almost identical. Klopp needs to be more pragmatic just as much as Mourinho needs to be more daring. In truth the problem in both cases is the quality of the team
Maybe it's just me but i think they'll challenge for the title next season
You're not suggesting that next year will be their year, are you?
Actually agree that Jose could be a little more daring at times.
No, i think it will be yours or city's again, but they'll truly challenge
I’ll never cheer em on. Fair play to em for beating City but the only good thing to come out of that was that City winning streak came to an end.
It's interesting that instead of debating the issue at hand, that is the battle for Top 4 (and specifically 2nd place) and current form (which you didn't even mention once and completely ignored the facts presented) you instead go off on a diatribe against Klopp and his tactics. Tactics that have seen Liverpool rise to 3rd, within just 3 points of United, and go on an unbeaten 18 match run. And with Liverpool having played 2 more matches than United against Top 6 teams and therefore should theoretically have an easier run-in to the end of the season.
Also interesting that you focus on the lack of specifics when I detailed how the defence is indeed improving and instead try to reduce it to the time taken to address it instead of debating actual progress and current personnel.
As for 'it has taken him 2 years' .. clearly he had a long term plan (which he mentioned at his appointment) and was prepared to see if he could work with the players at hand, that is typical Klopp and is in complete contrast to say Mourinho and Guardiola who seem to just want to go out and spend whatever it takes. The obvious improvement of numerous players in the squad prove this is a valid tactic. Spending to supplement that, where weakness has been shown (CBs, Midfield and I'm sure now at GK) is the next logical step.
'Many many managers would have been sacked by now' is extreme hyperbole since a) we announced it as a long term project b) look at what the opposition has done/spent in the interim c) Liverpool have clearly made progress as a team, some may claim points vs. a previous season/manager or whatever but there's no doubt in not only Liverpool' supporters' minds but in those of opposition fans and commentators in the media, that this team has made substantial progress and is now just 2-3 players short of a team capable of challenging for honours, whether 'a team' as opposed to a 'squad' of the depth of City (and maybe United after this coming Summer) is enough over the course of a season remains to be seen but it's obvious to nearly everyone that we have a team capable of beating any in the PL and maybe, maybe, even in Europe on their day. That doesn't happen by chance and isn't the result of the tactics of a naive manager (frankly a ridiculous claim considering Klopp's standing in the game), regardless of your own opinion of his tactics he employs (which you greatly simplify but that's for another debate).
I agree let's not turn this into a biased "I'm right" "no, I'm right" debate but at least let's discuss the same topics (Top 4 this season) and not subvert the story to something that wasn't even under debate (title challenge).
I'm not sure I'd want any team I support to take a leaf out of Jose's tactical book .. except when closing games out but we saw against City where that can backfire. And how about United's failure to win matches they should have this season ? Wouldn't you want Jose to then be adopting a more Klopp-like approach ? I know many United fans would.
But that's all besides the point, which is your (again, sorry I have to repeat this phrase) hyperbolic bolded section of your post. 18 games unbeaten, in which we actually deserved to win every one of those, isn't lacking consistency (let's not refer to early season since obviously teams formations, personnel and tactics don't remain static throughout the season) in fact it's about as far from 'lacking consistency' as you can get. The second BS part is that not only have you neglected the fact that (as of a month ago - haven't seen the very latest figures) Liverpool were only 5th in terms of distance covered (City above them and Spurs actually cover the most ground) but Klopp has rotated his team far far more than any other in the PL (clearly shown by the minutes played by each player compared to say United or even City with their larger squad). Very convenient points to ignore when trying to validate that argument.
The truth is Liverpool are, and have been for a considerable number of years now, a top 4 club. So all this talk of "rising to third" as if it were some monumental achievement is quite frankly absurd. Your imagined truth would suggest that Liverpool have risen from a club battling relegation to one of elite status. Why? Because you're on a unbeaten streak stretching back some 18 games. Congratulations. I would like to point out that United hit a lengthy unbeaten run of their own last year (20+ games) we finished 6th when all was said and done. In the grand scheme of things, form is only relative if it cannot be sustained for an enitre season. We are only having this debate right now because both of our clubs struggle with consistency - which is pretty much the norm for the vast majority of football clubs the world over - City being the extremely rare exception in this case, the manner in which they have gone about business this season has raised the bar significantly for the rest of us. One such that we simply cannot reach at present, leading us to argue over second place.
Let's face the undeniable facts here, when we measure a football clubs success in relative terms, the only viable factor worthy of consideration is its financial strength. The managers tactical nous is also a factor, obviously, but his ambitions are limited by the means he has at his disposal with which to purchase the most suitable candidate for his system. The richest clubs buy the best, the poorer clubs settle for what they can get - this is football today. Money is everything in the modern game (loathed as we are to admit it) so with that said let us measure our respective clubs ambitions for the season on their expenditure in the transfer market. For me this is the fairest way.
The following is a list of the biggest spenders in the transfer market to the current date:
1. City - current position 1st.
2. Chelsea - current position 4th
3. United - current position 2nd.
4. Liverpool - current position 3rd
5. Spurs - current position 5th
These positions are of course subject to change at any point, but generally speaking we are precisely where we are supposed to be.
There is also something called prestige. If you seriously think someone like Pogba, Lukaku or even a (back then) pretty much unproven but hyped talent like Sané would've joined Liverpool you're crazy. Pool can offer as much money as they want, if a club like City, Chelsea or United offer similar wages there is absolutely no way a player would choose them over any of those clubs. They usually have to settle for 2nd tier talents that are not that much sought after and hope their manager can utilize them to their best.
Not to mention that City, Chelsea and United lose their key players much less often than they do. If you sell your best player for 140m, you need to buy big to replace him. Net spend is not the most accurate metric out there (wages and signing bonus are missing for example) but it is much more accurate than total spending. To say Liverpool spent as much as United and City is absolutely nonsense and you know it.
The list above includes the £75 million Liverpool shelled out for VVD recently, placing them 4th in the highest spenders list. They currently sit third in the league, thus they are performing as expected this season, generally speaking.
The list does not incorporate net spend, though. As you say it is inaccurate and easily manipulated.
Straight out of the handbook of cliches and platitudes 101. I don't think you even watch Liverpool play.
It's tiring and cringe worthy to hear the average layman talk about, dismiss and simplify tactics and football in this way.
We're on a football forum lest you forget, you're going to hear your "average layman" express his opinion. Why on earth would you continue reading this thread, or any other for that matter, if the content within affects your energy levels?
Anyway, it would appear that you know better than your average everyday football fan (like myself). Feel free to impart your worldy knowledge regards Klopp and his tactical ability on to us.
Any Utd fan caught cheering on Liverpool should be banned from this forum. That's the bottom line.
See the problem I have with the majority of posters in this thread are as follows;
If any player in the united dressing room didn't have the ambition to catch city and win the PL, they would be dropped from the line up, bottom line. We insult our players and question their ability to motivate themselves now that the PL race is 'over', but we state that there is no point in trying to catch city, and that we should settle for second place because its realistic, that's hypocrisy.
Personally I'd much rather City finishing first, and Liverpool finishing one place above us this season, than City being able to claim the invincible seasons for the rest of time.
If any player in the united dressing room didn't have the ambition to catch city and win the PL, they would be dropped from the line up, bottom line. We insult our players and question their ability to motivate themselves now that the PL race is 'over', but we state that there is no point in trying to catch city, and that we should settle for second place because its realistic, that's hypocrisy.
Personally I'd much rather City finishing first, and Liverpool finishing one place above us this season, than City being able to claim the invincible seasons for the rest of time.
Apart from the fact that VVD has played one single game and not done anything that has influenced their season significantly, net spend is much more accurate than total spending, especially for a tier 3 club like Liverpool who risks losing their best players every year. Imagine Barcelona selling Messi and Neymar for 600m, they'd never be able to replace them anywhere adequately for less than what, 400m? Would you say they needed to win the CL and league because they "spent" 400m in that season?
Truth is United is in a much much better position to attract players, have more money and a stronger squad, at least surely at the time Klopp arrived. I think Mourinho did a better job than he has been given credit for, at least result-wise, but most neutrals would agree that Liverpool has progressed much more in the same timeframe. I think United's squad is still stronger but they are getting very very close already with much less.
There are exceptions - a scenario where Liverpool beating another team helps United. Imagine a final day when Liverpool play City and United play WBA (random choice of a bottom half team). City are two points clear so United need Liverpool to win and win their own game to finish a point ahead and win the Title.
Otherwise, I hate seeing them win anything at all.
Agreed. Could never see them beaten by enough.
Liverpool vs City would never be scheduled for the final day.
Okay blue moon/ RAWK.
Yes, because that's how football opinions on a forum works. Sarcasm
I think you are missing the point. If Liverpool winning benefits United, naturally you want them to win, as much as it sticks in the throat. The irony of them helping United would sting them anyway. They nearly did it in 95 when they beat Blackburn but United couldn't get the win at West Ham to take the title.
Ah my bad. Can someone re work the thread title? Boiling with rage thinking there were Utd fans on here wanting the scum to win
We are on a football forum - but as with anywhere, it's difficult having a reasonable discussion with someone who expresses such ridiculously simple and misinformed opinions.
I don't claim that I have superior tactical knowledge - but I'm not the one going around criticising a manager for his tactics and suggesting he should have been sacked in spite of the clearly excellent job he's doing.
Perhaps you should explain to us all what specifically you find so naive about Klopp's tactics? Some in game examples would be good.
I have already stated in an earlier post why I believe Klopps strategy is flawed. You have walzed in to this discussion in it's latter stage, many of the points from both sides of this debate have been said already. I'm not about to trudge through Liverpool's results in search of evidence to support my claim, but I suppose if you really want specifics then the City game on Sunday would be a fair example; 4-1 up with 10 minutes to go. The Liverpool players, entirely unable to maintain the intensity they have shown for 80 minutes, rightfully ease off the gas in order to conserve energy. Only to concede 2 goals and very nearly a third. If that last one went in, this would be a very different discussion. Fine lines indeed.
Liverpool are your stereotypical Jekyll and Hyde football team, unstoppable one minute, prone to conceding the next. In my opinion this is down to Klopp's intense pressing system that he forces his players to adopt, such that they are unable to sustain for 90 minutes let alone a 38-game season. This is also why Jose sets out in a highly defensive shape when playing Liverpool, it's a direct counter to a high press system. Nullify Liverpool's high press and you invalidate their chances of winning the game significantly. He was right, very few teams this season, City included, have managed to make Liverpool look toothless in attack.
P.S
If my opinion of Klopp's strategy is so simple and misinformed, you will have no trouble in correcting it.
Well documented.
Our problem is not systematic but has more to do with personnel and mentality. We don't concede very many shots on goal and control games for large parts. We concede goals from most of the shots we do concede and we struggle to cope with periods of pressure - which often result in silly mistakes.
The most recent example was when we threw away a 2-0 lead against Arsenal - due to individual errors from Gomez and Mignolet. Even against City on the weekend, bad defending from Milner and Lovren allowed them claw their way back into the game, and in the first half Karius let Sane's equaliser in at the near post. Signing a top keeper and getting VVD bedded into the team are intrinsic to changing this. None of these goals are a consequence of the way Klopp tactically sets us up.
My issue with your posts is that was it makes it seem like we let teams openly run at our defence, when the opposite is true. You also overlook the fact that in most games (especially vs lesser opposition), we control the majority of possession and so do not run around like Duracell bunnies, as you suggest. And then you state (quite ridiculously) that any other manager but Klopp would have been sacked for overlooking our defensive issues, yet fail to note the clear improvement that has taken place whilst he has been in charge.
Also, what even is a typical Jekyll and Hyde football team? One that is on an 18 game unbeaten run? That has been beaten only twice in the league since last April? Considering our proximity to Man Utd in the table, are you also one of these teams?
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Why do you persist with comments such as that bolded line when this has already been answered ? It seems you (and others, you are not alone and it seems logical until being bothered to research facts not opinion) simply prefer to adhere to that stance even in the face of contrary evidence, since it suits your rhetoric. I don't see you casting any criticism or doubt on the ability of Spurs to sustain their system over the course of a season?
Copy/pasted from my previous response to you :
The second BS part is that not only have you neglected the fact that (as of a month ago - haven't seen the very latest figures) Liverpool were only 5th in terms of distance covered (City above them and Spurs actually cover the most ground) but Klopp has rotated his team far far more than any other in the PL (clearly shown by the minutes played by each player compared to say United or even City with their larger squad). Very convenient points to ignore when trying to validate your argument.
I find it interesting that someone from Czech Republic would be so outraged over this. I could understand it in the case of locals, since they have to live next door to them, especially if they were old enough to see Liverpool's dominance.
Of course you do realize that much of what you are saying is subjective. You're not providing fact to build your case, rather projecting your beliefs in a manner that would appear correct. I'm not knocking you for it, I do the same thing. It's just that before this post, you came across as someone far more knowledgeable on the tactical side of Klopp's strategy than the rest of us.
As for the content, the gist of it anyway, I have already responded to a very similar viewpoint earlier in the thread.
Would have thought that is obvious, I don't utterly despise Spurs with every aching bone in my body like I do Liverpool.
Good point though, Poch does run a similar high press system to that of Klopp, but what you seem to forget is that his backline are far superior both individually and as a unit when compared to Liverpool, thus they are far less susceptible to conceding on the counter.
As for the form thing, again, is it not time your club actually proved themselves beyond a good run of form to one that actually challenges for the title?
Liverpool improve every year, only to fall away again. Far to many false dawns to take them serioiusly.
See the Boom/Bust cycle.
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Talk about moving goalposts - you are all over the place like a mad woman's piss !
A simple recap : The discussion is about how Liverpool's purported press is going to hurt them come the later half of the season due to reduced energy levels (tiredness).
What we are NOT discussing but you have tried to introduce to deflect from actually having to answer the pertinent question (or, God forbid, concede you were wrong) is :
a) Anything to do with the backline that isn't relevant to distance covered and rotation
b) title challenges
c) superiority of certain players
d) boom/bust & false dawns
And again, just to emphasise the point, we don't run anywhere near as far as a team as Spurs (who head the list) or even City, and Klopp rotates substantially more than either of them, in fact more than any other PL team, giving his top line players (and those most likely to suffer - the forwards) lots of rest.
Independent (mid-Dec 2017) : Liverpool have already played more games in this season than they had by January of the last campaign. This simple fact means that order to avoid another winter slump, Klopp has been forced to adopt a heavy rotation policy and make difficult decisions which produce imperfect results.
Jürgen Klopp ...... brought him up to a total of 59 rotations for the Premier League season so far. We have not yet reached the campaign's halfway point but already, Klopp has tinkered more than he did through the entirety of last season - when the Liverpool manager only had domestic commitments to worry about and made a mere 54 alterations on the way to a top-four finish.
A lot of what you say is true regarding his style and his players to effect that style. At present they don't equate. But of all the things that one can accuse Klopp as being: he being a cynic and being a manager that seeks to blame others for his faults, is totally inaccurate.
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Your point above has been addressed in this thread already, you just didn't like or agree with the answer because it wasn't favourable to your precious Klopp.
The idea of a discussion changing course or evolving over time would appear lost on you. You wish only to talk about what you wish to talk about, like a child. Fine, have it your own way.
What is your question exactly?
You really do live in your own head don't you.
At least it's warm in here!
I'm not going to change my view on Klopp or his tactical approach to the game, no matter how hard you push for a concession. Your entire arguement is built around this earth shattering unbeaten run that you insist on using as your focal point. As if all else is irrelevant. Last I heard, they do not hand out trophies to a club for going unbeaten for an extended period of time. Or perhaps you intend to use this run as a sure sign of progression. Perhaps. That remains to be seen given the near countless false dawns over the years. Surely you can understand that? Look, If Liverpool win the title under his leadership, or indeed any trophy of significance, feel free to comeback here and rub it in my face.
Haha.
Yes, that's what I was doing a few posts back. I was also at odds to disprove the 'Klopp's system will cause the team to run out of steam', a much loved theme on RedCafe but not actually based on fact (we finished last season on a very nice unbeaten run for example) especially bearing in mind the stats on distance run and rotation.
Any Liverpool fan has to have thick skin and a tendency towards masochism, it comes with the territory.
There are a multitude of stats (xg etc) which inform what I'm saying. And our recent form isn't subjective, it's a fact.
Still worried about Liverpool @golden_blunder
Jesus didn't realize there's some serious discussion going on here.
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