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Chelsea 2017/18 thread - FA Cup Champs, League chumps

Kentonio

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With all due respect, that is rubbish.

Perhaps those fans do not know know exactly what they're chanting, it's a real possibility. I'd tend to give Chelsea (and West ham) fans less of the benefit of the doubt than I would a Stoke fan for example , considering those two fanbases are the only two that still occasionally send anti semitic abuse our way (and by anti semitic abuse, I don't just mean singing yid out of context either).

It is of course also disingenuous to equate this with Tottenham fans singing yid and strikes me as (a much milder) form of the same argument about why it's OK for African Americans to say nigger if they get offended by white people saying it.

It goes without saying there is a historical reason (whether you agree with the use of the term now or not) for Spurs fans to associate with the term yid. To cut a long story short, it was historically a word used pejoratively by fans of other clubs based on the assumption that our fanbase was more heavily Jewish than others. To remove the sting from this insult, the fanbase turned it around and took on the term as a source of pride, removing a lot of the viciousness of the term. Bit by bit, other fan bases have stopped using the term, excluding one or two. That is partly down to the changing of football culture in the country as a whole anyway but also partly down to the claiming of that term to be a source of pride.

Having talked to quite a few Jewish spurs fans (and randomly a couple of non spurs Israelis), not a single one of them found the term in this context offensive. On the contrary, they had a sense of pride that the club and its fans had long associated with the local Jewish community. Though I acknowledge that I cannot possibly articulate the general opinion of London or the world's Jewish community.

I'd assume it's also rather clear that the underlying meaning and intent when used by Spurs fan is altogether different compared to when used by Chelsea fans.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that there aren't still racist elements in the fanbase, I think it would be naive to suggest overwise. I think for the vast majority of fan though that really isn't something they believe or follow. If you don't know the connotations of the Yid term though, and you hear Spurs fans proudly singing about being the Yid Army, it certainly makes it a lot more difficult to send a clear message that its an offensive term.

You can't use that 'black people use the n word' example because most Spurs fans are not Jewish (I found an online article that put it at 5-10%), so despite the historical links to the Jewish community you shouldn't get any kind of free pass on that, any more than white people who associate with black groups and thinking its ok to use the n word as a result would.

As I said, it doesn't justify other fans using it, but it sure as hell doesn't help. It normalizes it, and makes youngsters who are in a big crowd and hear a chant going around far less likely to understand that what they're singing along with is actually deeply offensive. Hopefully things like the Morata and club statements will go some way to helping educate people, but non-Jewish Spurs fans should cut it out too.
 

Theafonis

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You're right, that's definitely the problem. If only Spurs fans had never said it, Chelsea and West Ham fans would never have done anything anti semitic in their interactions with Spurs.

And were Spurs fans to stop tomorrow, the Chelsea fans would immediately stop. Nothing to do with the historical context I've provided above.
Spurs calling themselves a racist word doesn't particularly help their case, especially since most of them aren't Jewish or have Jewish roots.

I don't think it equates at all to the n-word. That's a poor argument. The n-word has historical connection to a group of marginalized people and it eventually evolved into something else.
 

Lennon7

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Anyone know what the actual chant is/was? Racist cnuts. Awful club
 

Kentonio

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Anyone know what the actual chant is/was? Racist cnuts. Awful club
Leave it out, every club has a small group of assholes left over from the old hooligan days. Chelsea have been hugely active in stamping out that shit any time they see it with lifetime bans and the like.
 

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I'm not for a moment suggesting that there aren't still racist elements in the fanbase, I think it would be naive to suggest overwise. I think for the vast majority of fan though that really isn't something they believe or follow. If you don't know the connotations of the Yid term though, and you hear Spurs fans proudly singing about being the Yid Army, it certainly makes it a lot more difficult to send a clear message that its an offensive term.

You can't use that 'black people use the n word' example because most Spurs fans are not Jewish (I found an online article that put it at 5-10%), so despite the historical links to the Jewish community you shouldn't get any kind of free pass on that, any more than white people who associate with black groups and thinking its ok to use the n word as a result would.

As I said, it doesn't justify other fans using it, but it sure as hell doesn't help. It normalizes it, and makes youngsters who are in a big crowd and hear a chant going around far less likely to understand that what they're singing along with is actually deeply offensive. Hopefully things like the Morata and club statements will go some way to helping educate people, but non-Jewish Spurs fans should cut it out too.
And rightly so, considering, as I said, that the fiercest anti-semitic abuse still comes from our lovely Eastern and Western neighbours. But yes, I would say that of course the majority of Chelsea fans are not racist or anti-semitic.

I don't think that is the case at all. Again, I know you and Theafonis will repudiate the link with African-Americans using the term Nigger (which I will come to a bit later) but it is like arguing that of course young white Americans now can only be confused by African-Americans using the term nigger over and over again, in their songs, their vernacular, their terms of endearment and their insults. It does not. I would think that most people can (hopefully) appreciate that the term is offensive for a white person to call a black person, regardless of whether Snoop Dogg goes around calling 50 Cent his nigger.

And coming to the association now. No, I don't think anyone has tried to claim that our fanbase is mostly Jewish now (in fact, at a push, I'd say in terms of total Jewish fans, I'd imagine Arsenal would have more than us now). That is not the point though. At one point, teams would come to WHL and shout the most horrific anti-semitic abuse. That wasn't aimed just at our Jewish fans but the club and its fans as a whole. Knowing our connection with the Jews in the area. This didn't just involve shouting Yids at us (though it originated with that). It involved singing songs about Rabbis, foreskins, Hitler and hissing at us, before, during and after the game. This was not done towards Arsenal, who also have had a historically high Jewish population but towards Tottenham and especially from fans of other London clubs. Instead of repudiating our very close links to the Jewish community, instead of allowing these racists to continue to weaponise the term, we took back the term and used it a source of pride. To remove the sting from the insults from others.

So Yes. Fans of other clubs come and sing anti-semitic abuse at our fans, many of whom were Jews, historically at least, including the word Yid. Tottenham fans take the use of that word back, directed, as it was, not just towards our Jewish fans but towards the club as a whole. Some fans of other clubs still use it and, pathetically, try to then even subtly victim blame by suggesting that if only Spurs fans would stop chanting it, then these poor, misguided youths wouldn't chant these songs.

Give me a break.

(Though yes, I agree that hopefully education will help cut it out).
 

Kentonio

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I don't think that is the case at all. Again, I know you and Theafonis will repudiate the link with African-Americans using the term Nigger (which I will come to a bit later) but it is like arguing that of course young white Americans now can only be confused by African-Americans using the term nigger over and over again, in their songs, their vernacular, their terms of endearment and their insults. It does not. I would think that most people can (hopefully) appreciate that the term is offensive for a white person to call a black person, regardless of whether Snoop Dogg goes around calling 50 Cent his nigger.
But its not Jews shouting Yid thats in question here, its non-Jewish Spurs fans thinking they have a right to chant it because of their association to a club with historical Jewish ties. That's not the same thing at all.

It's also not as relevant because as this very thread has shown, Yid is not a universally known and understood term in the same way that the n word is. A huge number of people simply don't know what it means or just think its a Spurs related thing. In this case the use of it by Spurs fans could indeed be confusing the issue, in a way that the African-American example doesn't. In that latter case its about people arguing that a term has been made 'ok' by the target group using it themselves. In this case its about people not even understanding its a bad word to use in the first place.

And coming to the association now. No, I don't think anyone has tried to claim that our fanbase is mostly Jewish now (in fact, at a push, I'd say in terms of total Jewish fans, I'd imagine Arsenal would have more than us now). That is not the point though. At one point, teams would come to WHL and shout the most horrific anti-semitic abuse. That wasn't aimed just at our Jewish fans but the club and its fans as a whole. Knowing our connection with the Jews in the area. This didn't just involve shouting Yids at us (though it originated with that). It involved singing songs about Rabbis, foreskins, Hitler and hissing at us, before, during and after the game. This was not done towards Arsenal, who also have had a historically high Jewish population but towards Tottenham and especially from fans of other London clubs. Instead of repudiating our very close links to the Jewish community, instead of allowing these racists to continue to weaponise the term, we took back the term and used it a source of pride. To remove the sting from the insults from others.

So Yes. Fans of other clubs come and sing anti-semitic abuse at our fans, many of whom were Jews, historically at least, including the word Yid. Tottenham fans take the use of that word back, directed, as it was, not just towards our Jewish fans but towards the club as a whole. Some fans of other clubs still use it and, pathetically, try to then even subtly victim blame by suggesting that if only Spurs fans would stop chanting it, then these poor, misguided youths wouldn't chant these songs.

Give me a break.

(Though yes, I agree that hopefully education will help cut it out).
Hey its not a surprise (or shouldn't be) that London and England as a whole has had plenty of anti-semitism problems in the past, but no its not victim blaming to suggest that non-Jewish spurs fans shouldn't be doing this no matter how good their intentions.

Thanks for the snide little attack at the end though, good to see trying to have an open discussion about things is grounds for insults.
 

Lennon7

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Leave it out, every club has a small group of assholes left over from the old hooligan days. Chelsea have been hugely active in stamping out that shit any time they see it with lifetime bans and the like.
Maybe you're right, but Chelsea are clearly worse.

How many racist incidents is that now, in the past 5 years? Surely it's not the same lot of Chelsea fans singing the Morata chant, not letting a black guy on the tube in Paris or singing "we're racist, we're racist and that's the way we like it"? There's even been some controversy surrounding racism on the pitch, mate. Chelsea clearly aren't doing enough.
 

africanspur

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But its not Jews shouting Yid thats in question here, its non-Jewish Spurs fans thinking they have a right to chant it because of their association to a club with historical Jewish ties. That's not the same thing at all.

It's also not as relevant because as this very thread has shown, Yid is not a universally known and understood term in the same way that the n word is. A huge number of people simply don't know what it means or just think its a Spurs related thing. In this case the use of it by Spurs fans could indeed be confusing the issue, in a way that the African-American example doesn't. In that latter case its about people arguing that a term has been made 'ok' by the target group using it themselves. In this case its about people not even understanding its a bad word to use in the first place.



Hey its not a surprise (or shouldn't be) that London and England as a whole has had plenty of anti-semitism problems in the past, but no its not victim blaming to suggest that non-Jewish spurs fans shouldn't be doing this no matter how good their intentions.

Thanks for the snide little attack at the end though, good to see trying to have an open discussion about things is grounds for insults.

It is a group of people taking a term that has been and still is used towards them offensively by other people. When fans come to WHL and sing those songs, they aren’t just directing them at whatever % of jews are in the stand. They direct it and directed it at the fans as a whole.


You’re right, its not as well known. And like I said in my first post, it may well be an innocent mistake without any knowledge of the connotations of the term. It is very possible. I think it is rather disingenuous though to suggest that Spurs fans are contributing to the problem by signing Yid army. That term (as well as many other anti-semitic phrases) have been thrown at us for decades. We certainly don’t sit there at WHL hissing at ourselevs, singing songs about Hitler or foreskins. And yet fans of some other clubs still come and do that. So I think it is rather unfair to suggest that Tottenham’s use of the word contributes to the problem.



https://www.thejc.com/lifestyle/features/how-tottenham-became-the-jewish-football-team-1.53784


I think this is a good read on the subject with actually both views represented. Long read though.

Fine then. You don’t think it is victim blaming. I think it very much is. We’ll have to agree to disagree.


Snide attack? What snide attack? Or for that matter, insult? I feel this discussion has been had on a pretty even keel actually, without any abuse, so not sure where you’ve seen an aggressive or insulting tone. Are you referring to the use of the word pathetic? Hardly snide or insulting and, for that matter, was not actually even directed at you in the first place.
 

Kentonio

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It is a group of people taking a term that has been and still is used towards them offensively by other people. When fans come to WHL and sing those songs, they aren’t just directing them at whatever % of jews are in the stand. They direct it and directed it at the fans as a whole.


You’re right, its not as well known. And like I said in my first post, it may well be an innocent mistake without any knowledge of the connotations of the term. It is very possible. I think it is rather disingenuous though to suggest that Spurs fans are contributing to the problem by signing Yid army. That term (as well as many other anti-semitic phrases) have been thrown at us for decades. We certainly don’t sit there at WHL hissing at ourselevs, singing songs about Hitler or foreskins. And yet fans of some other clubs still come and do that. So I think it is rather unfair to suggest that Tottenham’s use of the word contributes to the problem.
I think you're taking it as an attack on Spurs fans, when its nothing more than a suggestion that it might not be helping and it might be better to stop. It certainly wasn't meant as any kind of attempt to assign blame to Spurs fans.

Snide attack? What snide attack? Or for that matter, insult? I feel this discussion has been had on a pretty even keel actually, without any abuse, so not sure where you’ve seen an aggressive or insulting tone. Are you referring to the use of the word pathetic? Hardly snide or insulting and, for that matter, was not actually even directed at you in the first place.
Apologies if I mistook it as an insult against me, it sounded that way on first reading. I was surprised more than anything, as we'd been talking perfectly civily.
 

Don _ Conte

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Chelsea Fans.... what would be your XI for tomorrow, bearing in mind we have arsenal at the weekend;

----------------------Tibo---------------------
----------Azpi---- Christensen------Cahill-----------
Zappacosta ---- Kante ---- Bakayoko ------- Alonso
Willian --------- Batshuayi ----------- Musonda
 

Theafonis

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Chelsea Fans.... what would be your XI for tomorrow, bearing in mind we have arsenal at the weekend;

----------------------Tibo---------------------
----------Azpi---- Christensen------Cahill-----------
Zappacosta ---- Kante ---- Bakayoko ------- Alonso
Willian --------- Batshuayi ----------- Musonda
I'd probably start Drinkwater and rest Kante. Also Hazard should start.
 

Theafonis

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Ah damn, I thought this was the perfect chance to have Hazard continue working on his fitness and then taken off around the 70th minute
 

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I think you're taking it as an attack on Spurs fans, when its nothing more than a suggestion that it might not be helping and it might be better to stop. It certainly wasn't meant as any kind of attempt to assign blame to Spurs fans.



Apologies if I mistook it as an insult against me, it sounded that way on first reading. I was surprised more than anything, as we'd been talking perfectly civily.
Fair enough and yep, agreed, it has certainly been civil. No offence intended.

Anyway, I've taken the thread quite off topic already so probably best to leave it there. I think we can all agree that we want to less less racism in football.
 

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Fair enough and yep, agreed, it has certainly been civil. No offence intended.

Anyway, I've taken the thread quite off topic already so probably best to leave it there. I think we can all agree that we want to less less racism in football.
Amen to that.
 

CechMate1

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Chelsea Fans.... what would be your XI for tomorrow, bearing in mind we have arsenal at the weekend

----------------------Tibo---------------------
----------Azpi---- Christensen------Cahill-----------
Zappacosta ---- Kante ---- Bakayoko ------- Alonso
Willian --------- Batshuayi ----------- Musonda

My lineup would be the same as yours but i'd stick Fabregas in for Kante. I'd also be tempted to try out Kenedy at LWB in place of Alonso
 

Prometheus

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We have Roma and Atletico in our group. I would play the strongest team possible!
 

Sunspear17

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People underrate these smaller teams, but sometimes they can be a banana skin. We shouldn't get cocky or overconfident, even if they are a minnow team from Kazakhstan. The one thing I dislike about football fans is their haste in putting down unknown teams vs the bigger teams, when there's no given.
 

Don _ Conte

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People underrate these smaller teams, but sometimes they can be a banana skin. We shouldn't get cocky or overconfident, even if they are a minnow team from Kazakhstan. The one thing I dislike about football fans is their haste in putting down unknown teams vs the bigger teams, when there's no given.
Agreed! That's why Conte needs to find the balance between making sure we get the job done, but also keeping one eye on arsenal at the weekend.
 

Kapardin

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People underrate these smaller teams, but sometimes they can be a banana skin. We shouldn't get cocky or overconfident, even if they are a minnow team from Kazakhstan. The one thing I dislike about football fans is their haste in putting down unknown teams vs the bigger teams, when there's no given.
Besides, you guys have a challenging group. 6 points from 2 games against Qarabag, the easiest opponent on paper, is likely a must.
 

AshfordLad

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Chelsea Fans.... what would be your XI for tomorrow, bearing in mind we have arsenal at the weekend;

----------------------Tibo---------------------
----------Azpi---- Christensen------Cahill-----------
Zappacosta ---- Kante ---- Bakayoko ------- Alonso
Willian --------- Batshuayi ----------- Musonda
----------------------Caballero---------------------
----------Rudiger---- Christensen------Cahill-----------
Zappacosta ---- Cesc ---- Bakayoko ------- Kenedy
Pedro --------- Batshuayi ----------- Musonda
 

Kentonio

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----------------------Caballero---------------------
----------Rudiger---- Christensen------Cahill-----------
Zappacosta ---- Cesc ---- Bakayoko ------- Kenedy
Pedro --------- Batshuayi ----------- Musonda
I think that's too experimental. We should find out how much of a danger these guys are going to be before loading up with the second string. Dropping points here would be bad.
 

Don _ Conte

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I think that's too experimental. We should find out how much of a danger these guys are going to be before loading up with the second string. Dropping points here would be bad.
What would you go with? I agree, but at the same time we need to have faith in our overall squad that they can get this done... Michy is who I'm looking at specifically tonight, he needs to have a good game as he's been off the pace when he's played recently.
 

Kentonio

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What would you go with? I agree, but at the same time we need to have faith in our overall squad that they can get this done... Michy is who I'm looking at specifically tonight, he needs to have a good game as he's been off the pace when he's played recently.
I'd start with Michy, he deserves a chance. I just think Cabellero, Zappacosta, Kenedy and Musonda is a bit much. That's making the defense pretty dicey as Kenedy and Willy havn't played yet this season and Zappa only just arrived.

Also Kenedy is pretty attacking, so a left side of him and Charly might be very open.
 

AshfordLad

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I think that's too experimental. We should find out how much of a danger these guys are going to be before loading up with the second string. Dropping points here would be bad.
Dropping points here would be a ticket to the europa league pretty much. Although, the team I suggest is not that bad plus If that team did not work in the first half, all the big hitters will be on the bench anyway.

From the starters Zappa needs to play this game to settle in, Bats and Pedro need a game like this to get back in form and Kante and Alonso need to be rested as they do not have like for like replacements.
 

Kentonio

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Dropping points here would be a ticket to the europa league pretty much. Although, the team I suggest is not that bad plus If that team did not work in the first half, all the big hitters will be on the bench anyway.

From the starters Zappa needs to play this game to settle in, Bats and Pedro need a game like this to get back in form and Kante and Alonso need to be rested as they do not have like for like replacements.
I think with us being out of Europe last year it wouldn't be a bad time to get the bigger players back in the swing of things. I know we'll play a weaker team of course, but I just think going a couple of goals down in the first half could make things very difficult. I might be overly worrying though, it's at the Bridge not in Albania after all. I'd just really like us to make this one comfortable, and get us off to a strong start.
 

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Was a bit of a silly chant. But every club does have that small minority. I work with a spurs fan and he is forever calling chelsea fans rent boys. That should also be clamped down on. It wont though, and neither will the Yid chants, or pikey chants at West Ham

Non Jewish fans call themselves a Yid, then moan when others call them it!?! Just dont fecking chant it full stop, at all
 

AshfordLad

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I think with us being out of Europe last year it wouldn't be a bad time to get the bigger players back in the swing of things. I know we'll play a weaker team of course, but I just think going a couple of goals down in the first half could make things very difficult. I might be overly worrying though, it's at the Bridge not in Albania after all. I'd just really like us to make this one comfortable, and get us off to a strong start.
Why would we play in Albania. If we are looking for a shithole to play in, surely we can rent out the den for an evening.
 

Kentonio

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Why would we play in Albania. If we are looking for a shithole to play in, surely we can rent out the den for an evening.
Doh, had it in my head that Qarabag were Albanian for some reason. Then again I'm also glad its not being held in Azerbaijan either. :)
 

AshfordLad

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Was a bit of a silly chant. But every club does have that small minority. I work with a spurs fan and he is forever calling chelsea fans rent boys. That should also be clamped down on. It wont though, and neither will the Yid chants, or pikey chants at West Ham
Yeah. Homophobia is still somehow cool in football. That said it does not justify calling them y*ds though, even if they do that among themselves. Should also stop with the "no bacon" chant. Cant get myself to go along when that chant gets going either.
 

The Outsider

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Yeah. Homophobia is still somehow cool in football. That said it does not justify calling them y*ds though, even if they do that among themselves. Should also stop with the "no bacon" chant. Cant get myself to go along when that chant gets going either.
I recall Liverpool and Grimsby fans chanting it, obviously a reference to Westminster and the perceived interest of VIPs to use such a service.
 

AshfordLad

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I recall Liverpool and Grimsby fans chanting it, obviously a reference to Westminster and the perceived interest of VIPs to use such a service.
I have heard it at almost every United away I have gone to as well. No doubt liverpool are the worst at it though with qpr and spurs close enough.
 

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Dropping points here would be a ticket to the europa league pretty much. Although, the team I suggest is not that bad plus If that team did not work in the first half, all the big hitters will be on the bench anyway.

From the starters Zappa needs to play this game to settle in, Bats and Pedro need a game like this to get back in form and Kante and Alonso need to be rested as they do not have like for like replacements.
Good compromise.

 

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I have heard it at almost every United away I have gone to as well. No doubt liverpool are the worst at it though with qpr and spurs close enough.
Really do Spurs and QPR sing that at us?
I've been to both grounds in the 90s without ever noticing it.

I never recall singing along to anti-jewish songs though do recall singing along to a crude version of Topol's, 'if I were a wealthy man' at Spurs one year.
 

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Obviously a great result but Qarabag were very poor. They kept running but they lost their way very early in the match.

For Chelsea this was a great run out and a few players who were looking for a game such as Michy, Zappa, Cahill and Christensen all started. This is a tough group and goals scored may become an issue. I'm not sure if head to head results count this year.

Zappa's goal looked like goal of the season until you realise he didn't mean to do it. He did have a good game though and will push Moses for his position. Christensen looked like a classy centre half and Chelsea have no problems with cover at the back.

The team played some really nice quick passing moves and would have gained confidence from this and at the same time managed to rest quite a few first teamers. Overall it was a good night if only against a poor side. It will be interesting to see how the other teams manage against Qarabag.

Athletico next and the real challenge begins.
 

Kentonio

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The only downside for me was Michy being garbage, despite his one and a half goals. He was really annoying me for much of that game.
 

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chelsea
The only downside for me was Michy being garbage, despite his one and a half goals. He was really annoying me for much of that game.
He isn't top class but I sort of feel a certain loyalty towards him because he scored last seasons most important goal and has stuck around even though Morata has come in. Second striker is a difficult role to fill. If he can play, and score, in 10 or so games this season he will have done a good job and more importantly, rested Morata.

PS. I know what you mean about last night though.