Of course China doesn't want to stay as the west's cheap labor, they've always wanted to undergo a industrial transformation but they lack the required skills and talents. They are capable of doing the basic parts at a very low cost but they still rely very much on the west for the high-end technology. Yes they have massive natural resources and a gigantic population but I don't think they are utilizing very well, especially the latter.
China-The next cold war?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Do they though? They've spent decades sending huge numbers of students to the top US and UK universities, and simultaneously investing massively in education back in China.
Chinese tech is among the best in the world. They have acquired the expertise through hook or crook, and are no longer the chop shop they once were.
Universities in the US and UK are much easier to admit, even the top ones. Students in China and Hong Kong are trained to take exams and they are good at it. They can easily get good grades in IB or A-levels and study whatever they want, rather than facing the fierce competition in local univerisites. Even if they take the local exams, they have many more better options overseas with the same result.
This, however, doesn't necessarily mean the education is successful. In fact, too much emphasis has been put on getting good grades and students are turned into exam and memorizing machines. This deprives their imagination and their ability in thinking outside the box, which are important in creating something new. There is a reason why so many world-changing talents drop out of college intentionally.
Nonetheless many parents are desperate to send their children to study abroad because they think there is no future here, especially in the mainland China. They know about the dark side of China and they want their kids to have a better life, despite it costs them a lump sum of money. There is a reason why so many relatives of CCP officials reside or study in the US, while they criticize President Trump in front of the camera.
For example? Fact is China has been struggling to produce a pen until recent years.
Huawei, Foxconn, TikTok...and they're the largest supplier of solar power equipment, turbine blades and other renewable energy stuff. Second most prolific country to contribute to AI research. Not saying that they went the straight and narrow way to acquire their expertise, but acquire it they have.
Yet of the 91.7 million cars produced in the world last year China made 25.7 million of them (the most in the world by some margin)
To put it in perspective the
2nd most... usa... 10.8m
3rd moat... Japan....9.6m
4th most... Germany...4.6m
Didn't produce as many combined
As for pens your partially correct
Only three countries in the world produce the ball point on a pen due to the very tight manufacturing tolerances
USA and germany don't produce any for example so would i guess by following your logic makes them both less capable than China?
The only three that do produce these parts are:
Switzerland, Japan (the main two) oh and china are the third
http://www.jingdapen.com/en/m//news/396.html
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All of the examples you mention exactly show that China only possesses low-end technology. Huawei can do all the basic parts at a very low cost but they rely on the US chips because they lack the technique (1). They may one day develop their own but it takes years and it's a major setback for them. Foxconn is basically hiring a bunch of cheap slave labors to assemble iPhones, not developing them (2). The fact that Chinese people are buying iPhones which are made by their own cheap labor at a high cost makes it even funnier.
(1) https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/18/huawei-faces-big-blow-from-new-us-rules-to-cut-off-chips.html
(2) https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post...iphone-investigating-apple-foxconn-and-brutal
I don't understand how producing cars is an example. The research, design, development, engineering etc. are all done outside China. The companies only set up a factory in China, put in the equipment, and hire a bunch of cheap slave labors to simply follow the instruction. There is no technology or innovation involved here, and they are easily replaceable. When the companies decide to relocate the factory, the only thing they could do is to make replica, which is why intellectual property is such a huge problem in China.
Well thats strange as car manufacturing jobs are considered high end and manufacturing jobs in Europe... and not especially labour intensive
You need a lot of skilled technicians who take a long time to train to look after the highly automised factories ... certainly not slave labour and not as cost effective as labour in Thailand or Vietnam or many parts of Africa
Yet people set up in China... because the logistics and supply infra and knowledge is in in place to enable JIT and six sigma methods
Conpared to europe The land costs less... the steel to build the factory... the construction of the factory costs less... the energy to power the factory costs less and you are in the world biggest consumer markets for cars
The human labour is actually a pretty small part of that equation but given the associated supply chain and existing skill set its pretty obvious that its a good place to build cars (and other high end stuff) ... and now we see Chinese brand cars taking bigger and bigger shares or the domestic market (like with the ball point of ball point pens... and similarly some time over the next decade this production will expand and they will start to export in huge quantities as well)
I see your in hk.. we left there around handover time and when we go back yo see froends there has been some progress in hk but its evolution... when we go to the mainland to see the wife's family its been totally transformed in that time frame
The service sector in China is growing rapidly and clearly shanghai not hk is hoping to be the real financial centre over the next decade... I guess your going to pretend that will be slave wage bankers over there?
I'm not particularly familiar with the car industry but I think you get the point. Companies set up factories in China not because they have talents there, but simply due to the low cost. Once the cost increases (which is happening and inevitable), China will no longer be attractive to them and companies will start relocating their factories.
What I'm trying to say is, China lacks the capability and expertise in R&D which demonstrates the technological level of the country. They rely on the high-end technique developed by the west and struggle to create their own. Being a copycat will only make them lag behind forever.
And yes, the evolution of Hong Kong has been slowing down since the handover to China and that's why Hongkongers want independence. The government is doing nothing but to cheer the CCP up, neglecting the real problems happening in Hong Kong.
Are we sure it's not one of those fake internet quotes?
You don’t say!
I wonder whether China would say what they really mean at all.
I wonder whether China would say what they really mean at all.
Well with china and Russia helping trump must stand a chance in november
It's funny because China was actually experiencing one of their weakest centuries at that time - the Qing dynasty. There were massive corruptions and the whole country was just a mess, and it's a history every patriotic Chinese would like to forget. They were later attacked by the west and occupied by different countries, so it's nowhere near a sleeping lion.
Your contempt for mainland China is already very clear, it’s ok.
Then Russia won by stealth.
-probably got Trump elected
-probably influenced BREXIT vote
-massive influence in UK government through oligarch donations
Living in Hong Kong, let me just say that many people I know are willing to die to see the end of the CCP.
Supposedly China would prefer a second Trump term due to his antics among other things that convey the US in a less desirable light to other nations and propel China to the forefront as the primary economic trading center for the world. I’m not 100% sure on that but it would make sense if so.
I hope this turns out true. China and the other SE Asian nations don’t have the best of relationships unfortunately, especially with Vietnam — who are considering or have accepted to lease out Cam Ranh Bay to the US Navy. Also hard to tell with the Philippines when they have Duterte who is fecking crazy and unpredictable when it comes to choosing between US and China.
They will not see the end of the CCP anytime soon and hong kong will keep getting a substitution of mainland chinese little by little till being a small minorityLiving in Hong Kong, let me just say that many people I know are willing to die to see the end of the CCP.
Now there’s a false equivalency with no basis in reality if I’ve ever seen one.
Good post
Well, one can hope. Xitler's house of cards could tumble if the economy gets worse.
I personally don't see a good future for HK.
Yes, there is always hope but everything is going worse and worse from 1997, and the chinese system doesn't allow to have hope in 4 years elections to get a new party or even and old party to make promises and concessions to hong kong to be elected. They have a decades long term plan that they don't need to modify because they are the same rulers. They are patient and little by little we are seeing the results. It sucks at so many levels, but China will do as they wish for a long timeWell, one can hope. Xitler's house of cards could tumble if the economy gets worse.
I personally don't see a good future for HK.
Not true, I didn't have a huge issue with the way Hong Kong was run before Xi came into power. In Hong Kong, we had freedom without democracy, compensated by a very low tax rate and the economy.
But ever since Xi declared himself emperor, everything has changed. I'm planning to leave some time (hopefully soon), but feel very sorry for the city and most of its citizens.
Yes and it has changed because they have a long decades plan ahead and no elections ever to have to change it. And probably they had it before on leaving you alone for a while as you were too important and because the transfer was too recent.
China has kept trying to substitute Hong Kong over the years but they fail. They try to create free trade areas and copy the system in different locations but essentially they lack the rule of law, sepaeation of powers and integrity to attract investment. Now they say they want to turn Macau into a commercial centre.
Struggling to build their own, their only way now to take away Hong Kong's privilege and sense of pride is to mess with our system. They disqualify elected councillors, override our legal system, deprive our freedom of speech and assembly, waste our money to build white elephant constructions etc.
They aim to make Hong Kong lose their advantages and how well they do. Now most of the Hongkongers have lost faith in Hong Kong and are looking for migration. You can't sense the joy here when Dominic Raab promises to give BNO holders a permit to work and reside in UK.
Yes, I completely agree and sadly, little by little they will succeed. The weight of Hongkong into the chinese economy had dwindled more and more
If that had happened 75 years ago and the majority in that state would democratically vote to remain separate then yes it would be seen as unreasonable.
To me if you get to the point where your analysis of history leads you to the conclusion that it is OK to remove democracy from people, to whatever degree they have it then you need to go back and rethink your approach. However HK and Taiwan came into existence the fact that the majority of people currently living there don't want to lose their say in their govt and the rules they have to live by.That trumps all other arguments.
That is why China's actions are unreasonable. Its not the territorial claims so much as the clear imposition of rule on existing democracies against the majorities wishes.
I'd like to know on what basis you decided the acceptable international principles don't include the right to self determination because its generally thought they do?
There are always both ups and downs for every political system. Autocracy ensures a stable regime and execution of long term plans, but strict control on people is inevitable to maintain authority and people's dissent cannot be heard. It's more suitable when most of the citizens are not well educated. Democracy can better reflect people's will, but it's more difficult to implement long term plans even if they're the right thing to do. It's more suited to societies where people are well educated.
If there's a brilliant leader, autocracy can certainly speed up the development because there's simply no opposition; but if there's a terrible leader like Mao, the development can be set back for decades. Whether Xi is a good leader we'll wait and see (it's too early to tell), but there's a reason why almost every developed, advanced country in the west adopts democracy nowadays.
As a catalan independentist, I can tell you how the world and other democracies, specially inside europe, cares about the right of selfdetermination (or just the right to put hings to a vote). Why they should care about what happens in china, specially if they have even more economic interests? democracy is just another tool to drives us all.
I agree in mostly of what you say
Regarding the bolded part, the reason is that we want the fake sensation that we can choose in the grand scheme of things
True, but it's still kind of sad to see the Western countries adopt double standards regarding the independent movements in Catalonia and Hong Kong, probably due to ideology. Although they haven't taken actions, they at least speak out and support the movement in Hong Kong. This is entirely opposite to their stance towards the movement in Catalonia.
It's not beyond the realms of possibility for things to go back to pre-Xi if he should suddenly go away.
Down the years, China have tried to replace Hong Kong with Shanghai, Shenzhen, various economic zones, and the latest one is Macau; yet all have failed. They don't seem to realize that the rest of the world see HK as being different to the rest of China not because they say so, but the US say so (Hong Kong Policy Act). In 2019, over 70% of foreign direct investment in China came via HK.
Anyway, they have gone and killed the golden goose, most HKers who have any money wants to leave (or hold foreign passports anyway).
We are finally seeing this:
The previous paragraphs suggest he is both.
The Chinese Government is determined that China will be the dominant force in the world, by the middle of this century. The authoritarian control it has of such a large populace and natural resources give it an 'edge', the 'technological edge' it is now gaining through companies like Huawei and if the West is to be believed through its stealth-like commercial activity.
The Chinese authorities have lifted millions of its own people out of abject poverty in the last half century and has created a new and growing middle class that wants what they have in the West. China will continue to push forward, it will risk confrontation, whether it be over the South China Seas, its treatment of the Uighars, Covid, Hong Kong, etc. to achieve its ambitions.
The only way it can be halted is if its markets dry up and its continued rapid economic growth cannot continue. This is one of the reasons Trump is trying to play 'cat and mouse' with them, but trade wars between super powers hits everybody as well as each other. Huawei's dominance in much of the world below the equator means China has a vice-like grip on these markets, the message is clear "stay open to China or face the great switch-off". Soon through its power station remits it may well have a similar grip on Europe, no wonder Mandarin is the fastest growing language in the world.
The Chinese authorities have lifted millions of its own people out of abject poverty in the last half century and has created a new and growing middle class that wants what they have in the West. China will continue to push forward, it will risk confrontation, whether it be over the South China Seas, its treatment of the Uighars, Covid, Hong Kong, etc. to achieve its ambitions.
The only way it can be halted is if its markets dry up and its continued rapid economic growth cannot continue. This is one of the reasons Trump is trying to play 'cat and mouse' with them, but trade wars between super powers hits everybody as well as each other. Huawei's dominance in much of the world below the equator means China has a vice-like grip on these markets, the message is clear "stay open to China or face the great switch-off". Soon through its power station remits it may well have a similar grip on Europe, no wonder Mandarin is the fastest growing language in the world.
I'm just sick of the hypocrisy. We keep attacking other countries for doing exactly the same things we in the west either did until fairly recently or continue to do to this day, under the hugely questionable premise that we're morally better than them. We can have weapons of mass destruction, or drone strike anyone at will, or impose our demands on anyone at gun point, but if someone else does any of those things they're evil and dangerous and must be stopped. What exactly gives us the right to determine what is acceptable when we aren't even following the standards we set?
I was actually intending to send you another reply, because I could see how me saying you clearly hate the Chinese regime could be misconstrued as a criticism. I totally get that if you're in HK you have very good reasons to despise the CCP, but you were taking the criticism to some pretty wild lengths when you started talking about China as not having any talent base and just being basically a country of practically slave labor wage workers. I'm not defending them at all, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of power and potential.
You're not the only one who overrates China in this thread and I'm always open to others' opinion, hence the discussion about technology in the previous pages. What irritates me is that you twist the history of Hong Kong and Taiwan (#61) so as to justify China's behavior and this is unacceptable.