China-The next cold war?

[Sky1981]

I'm not from the West. That said, I do think there is a very strong and valid reason to condemn the human rights abuses, genocide and geopolitical neo colonialism of the CCP while at the same time not ignoring the failures of the West.

Its a very poor false equivalence that you are driving at.

Nothing that the West has done in the past 50 odd years comes close to actual systematic genocide.

Its ok to call out someone for their wrongs without being an apologist for someone else's wrongs.

What if the whole thing is a fabrication from the west?

What if there's no such thing as Genocide, and it really is a vocational school where Uighur are taught some skills and Mandarin and Chinese culture, you know things we all learn at School. What if nobody got killed by millions?

One would think with the US pushing so hard to fabricate stuffs on daily basis, you'd think they'd easily find concrete proof of the CCP killing millions in a concentration camp. You can't even hide bodies from COVID deaths in many western cities, how unbelievable it is to think the CCP can hide 1 million graveyards? Grainy doctored pictures made with blurry and scary headlines? Closed up focus of I don't know what with fake narratives? "Credible Source" which are just internet hoax?


China may not be 100% angelic in all this, but ask yourself all this:

1. What gain does china have in killing millions of her own citizen, with US hot on her trails looking for any excuse for a war? They're busy buying off Africans, Asians, Europe, why bother killing millions of her own?
2. Slave labor? It's cheaper to actually pay for labors than to fund a covert operation to enslave millions of people.
3. You can't police a nation, or an ethnic, kills 1 in 10 people brutally and not have an uprising. Do you see any uprising in Uighyur? It's open for tourism by the way.
4. It's 2020, everyone has smart phone, you'd think if there's serious issue in there there would be more clear footage? You can't hide anything these days.

https://www.thestar.com.my/opinion/...hs-about-xinjiang-the-western-media-wont-tell

Some extract:

> What minorities in China like the Uyghur are facing is not torture but policies and social welfare far more favorable than what their Han brethren are enjoying. In order to raise the ratio of minorities’ population, Uyghurs and other minorities were exempted from the One Child Policy for 10 years. They are still enjoying reasonably relaxed policies. Some minority farmers and herdsmen are allowed to raise up to four children. In terms of education, while the general practice in China is nine-year compulsory education, Xinjiang is the first province to practise 15-year compulsory education. Every year, millions of Chinese high school students compete in Gaokao (national college entrance examination), which is probably one of the most crucial moments in their lives. Chances are the minority students from Xinjiang and other provinces are awarded 50 to 60 extra points, meaning they will be well ahead of Han students in terms of ranking by a large margin of several hundred thousand.

In China, where the area of arable land per person is less than one-third of the world average, and land rents in major cities are almost sky-high, Muslims still keep their religious burial tradition whereas Han people are to be cremated.

In 2018, tourism in Xinjiang surged significantly. A total of 150 million tourists visited Xinjiang, recording a 40% year-to-year increase. Among those tourists, 2.4 million were foreigners, an increase of 10%. People who visit Xinjiang are in awe of its tranquility, beauty and prosperity.


This happens 40 years ago with Japan:

Anyone who is a threat of the Anglo-Saxon world will be hated.

In the last century before the “Lost ten years” of the Japanese economy, Japan was the major threat of the U.S. technology dominance, especially in the semi-conductor industry.

So people began to destroy Japanese cars

Kill Asian who might be Japanese with a baseball bat.
Murder of Vincent Chin - Wikipedia

Trade war against Japan

Sanctions, all the Trump’s blablabla.

Of course, how could a foreign country is more technologically advanced than the U.S.?

They are just uncivilized Asian Monkeys! So THEY MUST have STOLEN our Technology!!

Accusing them of stealing American Intellectual properties (sounds familiar ?).

JAPANESE EXECUTIVES CHARGED IN I.B.M. THEFT CASE

Do those things sound familiar to you?

Also, now they are doing this “stealing technology brain wash“ in a more elegant way.

Do you believe you have “free” internet media??

I was trying to search “Japanese stealing technology from the U.S.” for the papers above and when I was halfway there, I got:

So anyone who is more advanced in Technology must have stolen from the U.S.

Anyone who got more economic power must be evil.

It’s just a public opinion war against the potential competitors.

They story back then was:

All Japanese were boring working robots especially Japanese male were slant eyed creepy short man.

The propaganda pic was like this.

A good article to read about history, but it’s very long.

In the name of “unfair trade to U.S companies”, “anti Dumping”.

The Japanese “volunteers ” to give up 20% of Japanese domestic market share and agree to sell their DRAM at a price not lower than “the cost”. Of course, “the cost” is decided by the U.S government and the competitor companies of Japanese in the U.S.

Basically，it was like the captain of the football team, bullied a nerd for all his money and college offer, and years later, he is nice to the nerd.

Of course, the bully hasn’t changed, he just has a new target.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dip...ld-trade-war-china-can-learn-japan-experience

 

[freeurmind]

What if the whole thing is a fabrication from the west?

What if there's no such thing as Genocide, and it really is a vocational school where Uighur are taught some skills and Mandarin and Chinese culture, you know things we all learn at School. What if nobody got killed by millions?

One would think with the US pushing so hard to fabricate stuffs on daily basis, you'd think they'd easily find concrete proof of the CCP killing millions in a concentration camp. You can't even hide bodies from COVID deaths in many western cities, how unbelievable it is to think the CCP can hide 1 million graveyards? Grainy doctored pictures made with blurry and scary headlines? Closed up focus of I don't know what with fake narratives? "Credible Source" which are just internet hoax?


China may not be 100% angelic in all this, but ask yourself all this:

1. What gain does china have in killing millions of her own citizen, with US hot on her trails looking for any excuse for a war? They're busy buying off Africans, Asians, Europe, why bother killing millions of her own?
2. Slave labor? It's cheaper to actually pay for labors than to fund a covert operation to enslave millions of people.
3. You can't police a nation, or an ethnic, kills 1 in 10 people brutally and not have an uprising. Do you see any uprising in Uighyur? It's open for tourism by the way.
4. It's 2020, everyone has smart phone, you'd think if there's serious issue in there there would be more clear footage? You can't hide anything these days.

https://www.thestar.com.my/opinion/...hs-about-xinjiang-the-western-media-wont-tell

Some extract:


In 2018, tourism in Xinjiang surged significantly. A total of 150 million tourists visited Xinjiang, recording a 40% year-to-year increase. Among those tourists, 2.4 million were foreigners, an increase of 10%. People who visit Xinjiang are in awe of its tranquility, beauty and prosperity.


This happens 40 years ago with Japan:

Anyone who is a threat of the Anglo-Saxon world will be hated.

In the last century before the “Lost ten years” of the Japanese economy, Japan was the major threat of the U.S. technology dominance, especially in the semi-conductor industry.

So people began to destroy Japanese cars

Kill Asian who might be Japanese with a baseball bat.

Huh?

 

[DJ Jeff]

But the scale and depth of IT theft by China is well documented mate, on that point in particular

 

[hmchan]

Huh?

Not even bothered to read.

 

[Sky1981]

Sorry what?

There are tons of OSINT satellite photos on the interwebs which show Uyghur camps, gravesites turned to parking lots. Thousands of pics from Tibet of "new Lhasa". Not to forget the continuous territory grab in Bhutan, Nepal, Ladakh and Aksai Chin, and South China sea, the CPEC through disputed territory in Kashmir, etc.

I'm not against China and the Chinese. I just want the PRC not to grab Indian and others' territory and screw around with everyone in Asia.

For a country which vows to never let the century of humiliation be repeated, its rich irony to subject others to it

Similar?

Gravesites turned into parking lot? You have satellite imagery clear as day, in the current technology you can view my house with google map, let alone Military satellite. If there's an activity of burying million corpse it'll already be caught on satellite.

What you're seeing is nothing, it's a picture of X with a Narratives of Y. Most of the times it's a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle narratives).

Education = Culture eradication
Vocational school = "Internment camp"
Reeducation = "Brain washing"
Discipline = "Torture"
Sent to work = "Forced Slavery"
Border dispute = "Land Grab and Annexation"

 

[Member 60376]

There is no point in replying to you so I won't bother. Be happy with whatever narratives you believe in.

 

[freeurmind]

Similar?

Gravesites turned into parking lot? You have satellite imagery clear as day, in the current technology you can view my house with google map, let alone Military satellite. If there's an activity of burying million corpse it'll already be caught on satellite.

What you're seeing is nothing, it's a picture of X with a Narratives of Y. Most of the times it's a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle narratives).

Education = Culture eradication
Vocational school = "Internment camp"
Reeducation = "Brain washing"
Discipline = "Torture"
Sent to work = "Forced Slavery"
Border dispute = "Land Grab and Annexation"

CCP has clearly entered the chat.

 

[Abizzz]

Now there’s a false equivalency with no basis in reality if I’ve ever seen one.

They both have megalomanic madmen at the helm. They both have millions of prisoners of specific ethnicities. They both snatch dissidents of the street and they both have extrajudicial establishments to hide away their actions from the world.

They got there very differently but they're not so different anymore.

The difference is we've already been conditioned for American facism for decades while the Chinese version is fresh, new and foreign to us.

 

[Kentonio]

But the scale and depth of IT theft by China is well documented mate, on that point in particular

Is this really surprising to anyone though? All countries steal tech if they think they need/want it, the US stole plenty of tech from the Russians during the cold war, and I'm damn sure they continue to do it today via their massive intelligence services.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Is this really surprising to anyone though? All countries steal tech if they think they need/want it, the US stole plenty of tech from the Russians during the cold war, and I'm damn sure they continue to do it today via their massive intelligence services.

How much tech did they steal from the Russians? How much of it was of economic significance rather than space race related? At what point in the past 80 years have the USA needed to steal IP through espionage to keep up or to make a leap forward, as China has done? They've actually been the leaders for almost all of that time - them or their allied nations. I understand China had to leap forward from a much more agrarian starting position, doesn't change the fact that they've IP thieved their way to their current position in the tech sector.

 

[Kentonio]

How much tech did they steal from the Russians? How much of it was of economic significance rather than space race related? At what point in the past 80 years have the USA needed to steal IP through espionage to keep up or to make a leap forward, as China has done? They've actually been the leaders for almost all of that time - them or their allied nations. I understand China had to leap forward from a much more agrarian starting position, doesn't change the fact that they've IP thieved their way to their current position in the tech sector.

The first part of your reply made me smile, so if its tech for the space race then thats ok, but if it was tech to build cars more efficiently then its a massive crime again decency? The part about the US and allies being tech leaders just means they don't have to rely on theft as much as other countries, but they've shown they're perfectly capable and willing to do it when necessary. 'We only do it occasionally!' isnt a very good argument against other people doing something.

For me personally I don't really care about the tech thefts, especially when it comes to allowing the likes of China to move past developing nation status. I want a world where all countries are comparable tech wise, not one where a small number are hugely advanced and just use the rest as cheap labour.

 

[4bars]

True, but it's still kind of sad to see the Western countries adopt double standards regarding the independent movements in Catalonia and Hong Kong, probably due to ideology. Although they haven't taken actions, they at least speak out and support the movement in Hong Kong. This is entirely opposite to their stance towards the movement in Catalonia.

Well, Spain is part of the club of the West and the EU, so they will not meddle with the Catalonia issue (also Spain could meddle with so many other proindependentist movements along europe like Scotland, Corsica, etc... in retaliation) and the West is interested in destabilize China also and HongKong is a good throwing tool (because lets face it, they don't care about HongKong per se). At the same time, as much he situation in Catalonia es unfair, there is no comparison on the situation with HongKong, the problems you face are much bigger and worrisome, and even if it looks grim, I hope you can turn around the situation at some point and wish you the best. I hope you can use the west superpowers to your advantage as much as they are using you for their agenda

 

[hmchan]

Well, Spain is part of the club of the West and the EU, so they will not meddle with the Catalonia issue (also Spain could meddle with so many other proindependentist movements along europe like Scotland, Corsica, etc... in retaliation) and the West is interested in destabilize China also and HongKong is a good throwing tool (because lets face it, they don't care about HongKong per se). At the same time, as much he situation in Catalonia es unfair, there is no comparison on the situation with HongKong, the problems you face are much bigger and worrisome, and even if it looks grim, I hope you can turn around the situation at some point and wish you the best. I hope you can use the west superpowers to your advantage as much as they are using you for their agenda

Just today, 12 pro-democratic activists are disqualified from the Legislative Council election.
https://time.com/5873566/hong-kong-democratic-candidates-disqualified-national-security-law/

 

[africanspur]

There's a very strange and real disconnect on here for some posters and their views on China compared to their views on the US/UK especially and how angry they get at the politics of those two countries.

For the area I'm most interested in generally (the Middle East), this kind of thing manifests itself in almost blindly supporting any country or leader who is technically 'anti-Western', ie Assad, completely regardless of whatever their domestic policies might be. Despite the fact their domestic policies are infinitely more regressive than the mainstream politics of countries in NA/ Europe.

 

[Florida Man]

They both have megalomanic madmen at the helm. They both have millions of prisoners of specific ethnicities. They both snatch dissidents of the street and they both have extrajudicial establishments to hide away their actions from the world.

They got there very differently but they're not so different anymore.

The difference is we've already been conditioned for American facism for decades while the Chinese version is fresh, new and foreign to us.

Now there’s a false equivalency with no basis in reality if I’ve ever seen one.

 

[4bars]

Just today, 12 pro-democratic activists are disqualified from the Legislative Council election.
https://time.com/5873566/hong-kong-democratic-candidates-disqualified-national-security-law/

And 4 students arrested to promoting independence of Hong Kong

 

[Abizzz]

Now there’s a false equivalency with no basis in reality if I’ve ever seen one.

Yeah if you've not noticed where America is heading at this point no words of mine will change that. And for the record saying Trump and his republican yes man are cut from the same cloth as Xi and his yes men isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of China.

 

[hmchan]

It's only normal because China can do whatever they want to "move past developing nation status" I guess.

Exclusive: Chinese-backed hackers targeted COVID-19 vaccine firm Moderna
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-moderna-cyber-excl-idUSKCN24V38M

 

[4bars]

It's only normal because China can do whatever they want to "move past developing nation status" I guess.

Exclusive: Chinese-backed hackers targeted COVID-19 vaccine firm Moderna
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-moderna-cyber-excl-idUSKCN24V38M

China said that they would provide affordable vaccine giving priority Africa and other countries in development, while moderna is the one that said that would charge the most expensive one. so in this case feck yeah, hack them

 

[KanieKaned]

That’s probably due to how heavily invested they are in Africa. China believe the 2at century is theirs and like the 22nd will be Africa’s. They are heavily invested in Africa due to raw materials etc. So that response to me seems quite straight forward that they would look after someone who helps improve me maintain the global position.

 

[4bars]

That’s probably due to how heavily invested they are in Africa. China believe the 2at century is theirs and like the 22nd will be Africa’s. They are heavily invested in Africa due to raw materials etc. So that response to me seems quite straight forward that they would look after someone who helps improve me maintain the global position.

Sure, still I prefer that approach even if it is for ultrerior pruposes than just give the vaccines to the developed countries at 25 dollars a dose (cylce of 2 doses) like moderna (Oxford at 4 - 5 dollars) and africa to wait at the end of the line as always

 

[hmchan]

That’s probably due to how heavily invested they are in Africa. China believe the 2at century is theirs and like the 22nd will be Africa’s. They are heavily invested in Africa due to raw materials etc. So that response to me seems quite straight forward that they would look after someone who helps improve me maintain the global position.

Sure, still I prefer that approach even if it is for ultrerior pruposes than just give the vaccines to the developed countries at 25 dollars a dose (cylce of 2 doses) like moderna (Oxford at 4 - 5 dollars) and africa to wait at the end of the line as always

China has always been trying to gain the support of less developed areas using financial influences as their votes are easy to buy off. I'm sure they will give all those vaccines to other countries before any of their citizens, and we Hongkongers will have to buy expensive ones from the US, just like the masks and testing kits. Anyway I don't think they'll enjoy much success in producing the vaccines and let's see.

 

[Florida Man]

Yeah if you've not noticed where America is heading at this point no words of mine will change that. And for the record saying Trump and his republican yes man are cut from the same cloth as Xi and his yes men isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of China.

I think you have it backwards with me. I’m aware of the direction the US is going in especially under Trump, but what I’m having an issue with is the comparisons of Trump to Xi Jinping, and by extension, the Chinese government, since they are really not the same at all. Your description of Trump is accurate, but it does not apply to Xi.

 

[Tyrion]

So lately, China seems to have pissed of a lot of countries with Hongkong, Uighars, corona, south china sea and skirmishes with the Indian border.

This in a latest development, where US has asked china to close its Houston consulate,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53497193

Are we going to see another cold war. Can the US and other nations afford to or have the political will to stand against them?

Afaik, things are different this time. The world is far more globalised now than in the 20s and 30s so the west is far more integrated with China now than it was with the USSR. Imo, a full cold war with an iron curtain is not going to happen. Especially as China lacks the network of alliances the USSR had (Warsaw Pact).

I think the west will eventually stiffen resistance to China's economic abuses if they continue and a cold war-lite will develop in the next decade or two though.

 

[Cal?]

China has always been trying to gain the support of less developed areas using financial influences as their votes are easy to buy off. I'm sure they will give all those vaccines to other countries before any of their citizens, and we Hongkongers will have to buy expensive ones from the US, just like the masks and testing kits. Anyway I don't think they'll enjoy much success in producing the vaccines and let's see.

I hope so, I would not use a vaccine made in China even if it's for free.

For now, I'm definitely not going to get that Health Code thing, if they don't let me shop or dine, I'll just shop online.

 

[hmchan]

Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam sides with education chief on no ‘separation of powers’ in city, defends move to delete phrase from textbooks
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...leader-carrie-lam-insists-there-no-separation

 

[Gehrman]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l6m6qCW7g6n7g1JWarvgz1yCOdtqJPaHSnzGfSOvY8dLY

 

[Cal?]

The CCP released a video bombing the US. (They stole the CG footage from 3 Hollywood movies. )

Ready for war?

 

[Gehrman]

The CCP released a video bombing the US. (They stole the CG footage from 3 Hollywood movies. )

Ready for war?

There are some Trump nutters who are going to believe this and declare this is the new pearl harbour.

 

[Cal?]

There are some Trump nutters who are going to believe this and declare this is the new pearl harbour.

Well, the CCP seem to be threatening to go to war with the US.

 

[Rams]

The Chinese Government is determined that China will be the dominant force in the world, by the middle of this century. The authoritarian control it has of such a large populace and natural resources give it an 'edge', the 'technological edge' it is now gaining through companies like Huawei and if the West is to be believed through its stealth-like commercial activity.
The Chinese authorities have lifted millions of its own people out of abject poverty in the last half century and has created a new and growing middle class that wants what they have in the West. China will continue to push forward, it will risk confrontation, whether it be over the South China Seas, its treatment of the Uighars, Covid, Hong Kong, etc. to achieve its ambitions.
The only way it can be halted is if its markets dry up and its continued rapid economic growth cannot continue. This is one of the reasons Trump is trying to play 'cat and mouse' with them, but trade wars between super powers hits everybody as well as each other. Huawei's dominance in much of the world below the equator means China has a vice-like grip on these markets, the message is clear "stay open to China or face the great switch-off". Soon through its power station remits it may well have a similar grip on Europe, no wonder Mandarin is the fastest growing language in the world.

so basically you’re saying China is taking over from where the US left off...

 

[Gehrman]

so basically you’re saying China is taking over from where the US left off...

Well pretty much apart from the fact they are completely totalitarian and un-democratic. Despite the fact that Trump wants to be a dictator, he still isn't one. Yet anyway.

 

[Rams]

Well pretty much apart from the fact they are completely totalitarian and un-democratic. Despite the fact that Trump wants to be a dictator, he still isn't one. Yet anyway.

China & the US maybe on the opposite ends of the political spectrum, but the way they extend their influence in the wider World is similar (as is the case with any super power since the beginning of civilization).

 

[Gehrman]

China & the US maybe on the opposite ends of the political spectrum, but the way they extend their influence in the wider World is similar (as is the case with any super power since the beginning of civilization).

Basically the US filled the void left by the British Empire and China are now filling the void left by the Soviet Union except that China has a strong capitalist economy controlled by a totalitarian regime. It's going to be interesting to see where this goes if it goes anywhere at all.

 

[SinNombre]

Well, the CCP seem to be threatening to go to war with the US.

Not just the US, but also India, Taiwan and Japan.

CCP is a crazy entity.

 

[Cal?]

Not just the US, but also India, Taiwan and Japan.

CCP is a crazy entity.

Xi is the madman in all this, even his diplomats have been instructed to act like mad dogs.

 

[Gehrman]

https://www.economist.com/united-st...rlds-largest-fleet-alarming-its-pacific-rival

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Huh, so that’s October. Ok

 

[Maticmaker]

so basically you’re saying China is taking over from where the US left off...

Well not quite, history shows us that it most cases when China has an established and overarching/ruling elite, as now the CCP (but probably even in the days of the Emperors) it always has planned in something like 50 year cycles. A totalitarian state almost independent of ideology is able to pressed ahead without undue concern for internal resistance because for the majority what they have now is better than what they had before, even if a few 'capitalist running dogs', as Mao's red guard use to call western democracies, point fingers at them and goes on about Human Rights etc.

China appears to be on course in the next fifty years, (unless D. Trump stops them) to become the dominant power in the world and will probably from around the middle of the 21st Century dictate everything through a combination of trade/technology dominance. Chances are they are already ahead of their plans and now feel confident enough to talk about reducing carbon emissions etc. in 40 years time. This of course ensures all the (predominantly western) world states who are desperate to hear China say something, anything in public about reducing emissions, climate change etc. will breathe a sigh of relief and reign back on any criticism of China and most importantly will continue to trade with China; now perhaps with a sigh of relief, they can now convince their own people that all the pain they are going through to save energy etc. is worth it, because China is now onboard and there is a real chance to save the planet.

Why is it D. Trump can stop them? Precisely because he is what he is, a loose canon, unpredictable, he is the one thing the Chinese plan probably did not include for in the West. Nobody could foresee his elevation to President, not even I suspect Trump himself in his wildest dreams. Even his 'go it alone/America first' is a threat, China knows that if, with the rest of the world chiding him from the sidelines, that his behavior would be curtailed; but out on his own he's possess an unknown quantity of threat to China.

It wont just be the Democrats that want rid of Trump in November.

 

[Gehrman]

When people talk about stopping China, we have to talk about stopping them from doing what excatly? And Trump isn't excatly this mastermind who can prevent China from becoming a superpower. It's good if he sets Jared on the case though. If Jared can't stop China, no one can.