Can't prove the books are cooked if City refuse to provide the books.
City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
This is so naive (nothing to do with City, just the general concept)
It's something I don't get either. There is already so much in the public domain that shows they are guilty - whether they're found guilty by the commission and sanctioned for it is another story, but there is absolutely no doubt about what they've done. People often dismiss it with a "let's wait to see what the commission says" - but you really don't need to.
Like I said months ago, the UK government is going to put pressure on the league.
They might do, they’re useless at most things but if they do, I hope Everton and Forest take the PL to court… and in an ideal world, the other clubs demand change of who runs it
From what I understand there are 7 PSR charges. PSR rules broken. This in effect the same type of violation Everton or Forrest were deducted points for. We keep hearing the case is very complex and yes it is, but it did not need to be as big as this from what I see. Each PSR charge for starters could have been brought up separately, could they not?
They have been investigating at least since 2018, and again as I see it instead of like Everton and Forrest they have found a way to delay the process denying, dragging their feet, instead of offering mitigating factors. (Apart from the charges for falsifying data)
Obstructing in a normal legal setting is a crime on its own with good reason. There are 35 charges there. Providing false data, which i think there are almost 70 charges for, would I imagine be linked to a PSR charge but they could have been split as per the specific PSR charge? Falsifying or cooking the books is a crime, some heads should already be rolling for that if the accountants were brought up on them. There is a Fraud Act to apply there. The league should be able to request the authorities to look into those.
No way should this have lasted 6 years+. The potential for damage in the meantime to the league and UEFA even, is too significant.
You're saying you wouldn't do anything to prove your innocence if you knew you'd been falsely accused of something?
To put this into perspective....Forrest was found guilty this year for a violation they made the year before. City has yet to go through the actual process for the first determined violation that happened over a decade ago.(2013-2014)
You clearly don’t understand ‘due process’ City don’t have to prove their innocence, the PL have to prove their guilt. That’s how judicial process works.
You're missing the point: if the PL can't prove City cooked the books, then they pass PSR.
There's a fine line between obstructing a legal case (jury tampering, tampering with evidence, putting a bomb under the judge's car) and delaying a case using legal tactics. Both are forms of obstruction but you can't deny one side all legal channels to win their case.
And no, the PL can't sic the legal authorities on City with emails that were obtained illegally. The PL as a private organization can do as they please according to their bylaws but there is only so much they can do, which is why you have to question their ability to successfully navigate a situation as complex as this. When they don't have any subpoena power.
I would shut the feck up and let my lawyers handle it.
I must say as a disclaimer I live somewhere where being honest and open is a disadvantage to you, as the authorities are not your friend.
If public perception mattered to me I may act differently.
Nothing will happen if we did. The PL and the UK decide who they like and dislike and everyone just has to deal with the tough titties of the situation. It's rank.
Their whole celebrations are so fake for the cameras and lack excitement.
Cant prove someone is drink driving if they dont provide a breath sample - so the max punishment is given.
Same should apply here
35 charges are for obstruction, not using a legal tactic to delay. If they were of the legal nature, they would not have charged them.
I understand they would not have legal powers, but there should be a mechanism to inform authorities that do have the power to investigate. Here is the problem, you have a situation where the PL is saying the accountants did something illegal, but really cannot do anything about it. In a normal world this should prompt a reaction by the authorities to look into the matter as well.
I understand cooking the books is related, I even said it, but they are not all related to the same PSR charge. It all could have been split up. Everton were brought up on two separate PSR charges were they not, and subsequently received two different deductions.
Maybe slightly off topic. Someone asked if there were any controversial VAR decisions that went against Man city. It's alarming that any controversial referee decision will almost always be for rather than against Man city.
Brilliant thread. I've read through most of the stuff before but that's a great refresher.
How can they possibly get away with this? Genuine question. I don't see how it's possible.
I get that many really don't want to get their hopes up but on the surface it seems a pretty open and shut case.
The most likely outcome is City compensates every team in the league including Everton and Forest and a points deduction.
I suppose City are a dry run for Newcastle.
Hopefully yes it will as i have skin in that game and would love to also see City punished.
But you can bet its being discussed by intersted parties to apply pressure.
I haven’t seen any footage of any of City’s title wins unless it flashes by during a PL intro montage. It’s been like this for a decade. Pathetic little club build on frauds. Will be a great day once they get what’s coming.
Not sure the other clubs have denied anything though, they have arguing their case for mitigating factors (and succeeded in the second Everton punishment reduction) and generally cooperated, indeed Forest had their points penalty reduced for an 'early plea' and not obstructing PSR.
City are just denying everything which is mad as part of the evidence is public and has been proven to be authentic.
Apparently 61 percent viewers of Skyports watched Klopp's farewell game, as opposed to about 23 percent watching City celebration.
Oh, right, I agree with that (obstruction re: not going along with the investigation)
I'm not sure how you give a private body the right to initiate a criminal investigation by the authorities before it is proven (or there is rock solid evidence) that a crime occurred. The PL alleges City did something illegal, but that falls far short of what is needed for the authorities to start investigating.
I think I see what you are saying; if there are years where only PSR is in dispute, those should be quick to adjudicate. But if City counter by saying, well, we have the revenue, look, then it becomes more complex. Again, Everton and Forest cases were quick because they were dead to rights and admitted as such.
Great thread.
The evidence is there in black and white that they were funneling funds from all directions, not to mention the ‘fair value’ of these ‘sponsorships’ around 2010-2014.
Why do so many pundits give pep a free pass in all of this, did he not benefit from inheriting the likes of kompany, silva and aguero amongst other influential players that were all recruited thanks to city financial doping, let's not forget also the behind sides of things that was set up perfectly for him when he arrived from basically having his old barca staff there waiting for him and the youth side of things as well where man City magically had the best facilities and youth players all.of a sudden to also benefit pep.
The problem is the country who owns City don’t have to worry about legal costs. The FA if or when they punish City will be adding up and planning is it even worth it.
City have that much money they could basically sue the FA out of existence and make their lives a nightmare.
The UK government has long been a disgrace so it’s no surprise our institutions are getting sold off to the highest bidder. You literally had a Russian mobster in charge of Chelsea which doesn’t get talked about enough.
Now Chelsea is seen as a respectable club despite the fact they basically cheated for years.
Fair point, which is why I would have focussed on one PSR charge to get that ball moving. I am also not inclined to believe even if the PL prove their case that there will be a followup on any potential cases of fraud here which will only encourage future cooking of the books.
Could not agree more. The UK govt is at fault for allowing these sales to go through in the first place. There needs to be due diligence and instead it became the Wild West. (Not the only govt at fault in this respect)
Now, there are ways to shut down this nonsense going forward. Mandate that all financial statements submitted to the PL to check compliance with PSR, be stamped by HRMC. Because submitting false documentation to the tax authorities IS an actual crime.
It's not foolproof, but it's a step in the right direction. Because how many club accountants would be willing to potentially go to jail and lose their practicing licenses over false statements? I know I wouldn't sign.
At the end of the day, this is just a huge SNAFU by the PL, and despite their half hearted attempts at self regulation, this is why the government needs to introduce the independent regulator.
The infos there “not real”
The infos from a reliable source “found illegally, shouldn’t be allowable”
We’ve set up a panel “we refuse to take their judgement”
It’s in the PL rules you signed up to “nah nah nah (fingers in ears)”
We’ve set up a panel to talk about your lack of cooperation “we don’t like that guy, he’s an Arsenal fan”
Give us the info now “we’re going to court”
The court rejected you, give us the info “we’re appealing”
The court rejected the appeal and effectively said it was abuse of the courts time to have such a frivolous appeal “we might be free the year after next”
Ready now? “we’re busy at the minute”
Prevaricate, lie, prevaricate, work through next legal step, prevaricate. Rinse and repeat.
For all the useless w@nkers (fans, players and that xxxxxx Pep) who say “it’s not fair, it needs sorting, people aren’t taking our achievements seriously, boo hoo hoo….” how about you call the board and owners out and demand they meet with the PL before August and if guilty, you think all the trophies and medals should be given back?
What’s that complete silence I hear…..
Which would make for an interesting situation. City are basically one big PR initiative and there would be significant fallout if this were to happen.
Like many people suspected, the charges against City are being held off because of political reasons.
" The UK government has admitted that its embassy in Abu Dhabi have discussed the 115 charges leveled at Man City by the Premier League, but are refusing to disclose the correspondence because it could risk the UK's relationship with UAE." Source: @PJBuckingham.
So Everton and Forest can be dealt with in a few months, points are deducted and they're forced into a relegation battle but City can continue playing like nothings happened, collect more trophies even with 115 charges against them and if the FA try to do anything the UAE will withhold investment on any UK projects?
Even if 1 of those charges were dealt with this season and 3 points were deducted from City, Arsenal would be Champions now. City have stolen the league again.
If any of the top clubs had some sense they would work together and take the Premier League to court.
" The UK government has admitted that its embassy in Abu Dhabi have discussed the 115 charges leveled at Man City by the Premier League, but are refusing to disclose the correspondence because it could risk the UK's relationship with UAE." Source: @PJBuckingham.
So Everton and Forest can be dealt with in a few months, points are deducted and they're forced into a relegation battle but City can continue playing like nothings happened, collect more trophies even with 115 charges against them and if the FA try to do anything the UAE will withhold investment on any UK projects?
Even if 1 of those charges were dealt with this season and 3 points were deducted from City, Arsenal would be Champions now. City have stolen the league again.
If any of the top clubs had some sense they would work together and take the Premier League to court.
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truly amazing how quickly everton and the others were punished for breaches of FFP....yet City had 115 or whatever the amount was almsot a year ago and fuk all has been done about it
Arsenal deserves the last two PL titles and so do Liverpool for the last few years. Cheating should be punished severely regardless how powerful or connected City's owners are.
Make no mistake about it. This is blatant cheating and it's obvious to everyone. But the organisations with power UEFA, PL and even the UK government have no balls to touch City.
If this is allowed, Lance Armstrong shouldn't be stripped of the titles too if he had a team of strong lawyers and connection to the top people in the country.
Make no mistake about it. This is blatant cheating and it's obvious to everyone. But the organisations with power UEFA, PL and even the UK government have no balls to touch City.
If this is allowed, Lance Armstrong shouldn't be stripped of the titles too if he had a team of strong lawyers and connection to the top people in the country.
Those rules are deemed broken because of the others. So for example, you failed to comply with PSR in season A because you really made X when you said you made Y (This is why City can plead not guilty to a PSR charge). So bringing City up on PSR charge A relies on proof the books are cooked in the same year. Without it City will pass PSR and the PL will look like idiots. The PL's entire PSR argument is "You failed PSR if we take your sponsorships at real value not what you have in the books" and that has to be proven. If all the fraud charges are not established City will pass all the PSR charges too. Using Cities books they have passed PSR, whilst for example, Everton, Forest and Chelseas books all show failing.
That's very much why I feel these charges will be feast or famine so to speak, there'll be no half measures. City will either lose so badly they're expelled or docked 100 points or win so well they'll at most get a non-compliance charges held up, which again they'll argue as "We complied with the committee, just not with the PL because we felt it was biased". Exactly like they did with Uefa and CAS. People cling to this weird myth that everything with CAS was time barred but whilst some stuff was, in a huge amount of issues, Uefa just couldn't prove City were cheating.
I agree its taken too long for what its worth, but I understand why, their are reportedly millions of documents that both sides need to evaluate and go over but again as I said earlier, comparing what happened with Everton or Forest with City is very much like comparing why a theft charge where the thief pleads guilty when questioned way before it reaches court to a murder trial.
By bringing City up on PSR now, the PL would lose heavily and mess up their own case on the "real" charges, which are fraud.
Don't get me wrong I think we're guilty as sin but I think its gonna be harder to make those charges stick than people think. Even Simon Jordan who hates City (and who everyone hates) pretty much said the fact its 115 charges alone feels like the PL throwing shit at a wall and hoping some of it sticks. They should have focused it around "Prove you didn't cook the books". It would have stream-lined the process hugely and they could have come with the lesser stuff afterwards.
City of course have been dragging it out, to find loopholes and build a solid case for themselves.
The major thing the PL have is that the onus of proof is on City this time and not the accuser. Uefa had to prove City guilty, this time City have to prove themselves not guilty as far as I know.
It's also important to understand City don't have to prove themselves innocent to be not guilty, they just have to prove that each charge isn't rock solid, "not established" if you will just like the CAS decision .
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There is no proof of this.
Lance did have lawyers, plenty. The evidence against him (blood results, testimony from former teammates) was rock solid, and he was found guilty, because in real life, lawyers aren't magicians that can make a iron clad case go the other way. Not even the high paid ones.
Hmm... They basically tell UEFA lawyers to feck off due to technicality and whatnot even though the evidences were stacked against them. UEFA suspended them 2 years and left tail between their legs when the case went to a real court.
Everton and Forest cooperated with the investigation