Club Sale | It’s done!

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cyberman

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Something needs to be done about this thread. When news does come out closer to Friday there’s going to be no where to post it
 

LordSpud

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I cant wait for the Qataris to come in so you lot whingeing can just log out and let the supporters support the club regardless of who is in charge.
 

Drizzle

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This is a big misunderstanding when it comes to 'sportswashing'. They do not try to push any 'moral agendas'. City, PSG or Newcastle haven't been used as a vehicle to push back against human rights in any shape or form.

What they do is promote the big companies connected to their country via sponsorship - Fly Emirates, Qatari Airways etc. These companies become more successful and increase jobs + revenue for the countries they're located in.

Middle Eastern states buy football clubs in order to make their countries more wealthy, not to sustain 'moral agendas'. In fact I would say the best thing they could do to sustain human rights abuses would be to cut themselves off from the rest of the world and not try to grow their economies.
I agree, and I said as much in a previous post. Sportswashing is much more subtle than that. Just to be clear, for that reason I think most of us will be OK with Qatar. Not delighted, but OK.

They wouldn't be stupid enough to blatantly push any agendas which would risk backfiring, it'll be about wealth and power only.
 

Shakesy

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I mean, there must be some kind of biological difference between the Chinese, the Qataris and the British, right? Some type of hidden gene that prevents one group from succumbing to propaganda? Surely, good morals are coded into some races' genetic code.

We are ALL susceptible to propaganda. It's quite funny that most of you seem to think you're immune
 

redcucumber

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I mean, there must be some kind of biological difference between the Chinese, the Qataris and the British, right? Some type of hidden gene that prevents one group from succumbing to propaganda? Surely, good morals are coded into some races' genetic code.

We are ALL susceptible to propaganda. It's quite funny that most of you seem to think you're immune
What the actual feck are you going on about?
 

golden_blunder

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But being allowed to spend all of our 70 percent is a huge advantage to us anyway. Plus we have a few sponsorship deals up for renewal soon that should be completed by the summer if the takeover happens
Absolutely, we get a few debts paid and we’re good to go as a sustainable business. But we’re not going to dive into spending 300m every window which some fans seem to think this means
 

justboy68

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There's another thread about people's feelings on state sponsored ownership, I feel like all this discussion belongs in there. Then we could try to keep this a bit more focused on the potential sale itself? I.e. a place to discuss the tweets coming out etc. Just a suggestion, because it's a horror show in here.
 

littlepeasoup

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Give peas a chance.
That there's so much debate around the potential owners (whilst heated at times) does reinforce my belief that we've got a collection of some of the more grounded football fans in the country... weirdly.
 

Fahad Jawaid

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people did say those things though
Well yesterday I explained him and plenty of others also tried to explain him that just because a person's religion prohibits homophobia does not mean that I can't be friends with homophobic people. And I further clarified that I don't care what a person does in isolation or his choices does not matter to me, if he is right or wrong he will be judged by God accordingly.

To this he made it out that I hate homophos and they will rott in hell etc. Which is a complete opposite of what I said.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
It's an aspiration? Another lie we tell ourselves to sleep better at night. "All men and women are equal." Do we aspire to this, really? We say so. What do we do? "We are equal in the eyes of the law." Another one.

We are a self deluded species with a wonderful imagination and grand aspirations.
Aspirations are lies now. This is becoming a shit page a day calendar 'wisdom'. Not really a shock.
 

HarryP

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It's a combination of both. The greater the power, wealth and influence they have, the easier it is to do as they please without fear of reprisal (yes, just like the UK and the US). Jamal Khashoggi, human rights abuses, the Yemen crisis. Generally speaking, all super rich and powerful people care about is maintaining and growing their own power base and wealth, and thus are able to do whatever the feck they want.
Human rights typically improve, albeit never fast enough, when a country becomes wealthier though. Improved education usually comes with greater wealth (more money is invested in schools and unis to create a more skilled workforce in order to grow the economy further). A lot of middle Eastern states have actually improved in this regard over the last couple of decades. Again, they are still way off where we think they should be but the direction is generally quite positive.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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I don't get why people argue this. Manchester United was founded by railway workers from a working class industrialised city ... Manchester. Some of your biggest names from United history spoke out for socialism, Busby talked about the Great Strike of 1926 and the effect it had on him and his core socialist values. SAF was again from a working class background, the docks in Glasgow and is a staunch Labour supporter.

English football as a whole, especially in the north of England has been intimately tied with social issues, the working class and left wing politics for more than a hundred years. As has the city of Manchester.

People and posters will all have different opinions, but being taken over by an elite, ruling family that has little interest in the working class and workers is an anathema to United's rich history. The history of a club is not just trophies, it's its place in the community and its standing as a community asset. Manchester United and indeed most English football clubs have always been about a lot more than, splashing cash on the latest star and winning, it's also about the values of the community and people it represents.

For me to to break away from that so completely is really very sad.
I agree with your broad point, but it must be said Manchester United sold out a fecking long time before the 2020s. There are things we have done and continue to do as a club that I like; Busby and the ethos of bringing through youth, always having a youth product in the matchday squad, Fergie is an utter hero of mine (not perfect, RoG and accepting a knighthood are blemishes for me), the history of how we were founded and what we stood for, but we are also a global sports brand and were at the forefront of the commodification of football.

You can oppose state ownership of any club, including United, while grimly accepting that this is the trajectory football has been on for a long time, not least because many years ago clubs like United saw it was in their own self-interest to bring floods of money into football, go global and harness the new riches in such a way that you and a handful of other clubs could dominate football in an effective closed shop.

Personally I'm against state ownership, European Super Leagues and all the other horrible things going on in football but to stand so steadfastly against them now while having said not a peep while football sold itself to the highest bidder decades ago doesn't appeal to me. I debated whether state ownership of United would be the end of my interest in football, and I've concluded that I'll probably keep watching with an acceptance that everything we win will come with an increasing feeling of hollowness.
 

troylocker

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Just because religion and belief is very weak in the UK that doesn't mean that it applies everywhere. I can speak about my country who is one of the most Catholic conservative country in Europe. The church's grip was so strong that during the 60s it allowed the archbishop to basically excommunicate the labour party with labour voters being stopped from attending mass or being buried on holy grounds simply because it wanted a separation from religion and state. No one dared lifting a finger towards that injustice including the local governor and the British. That's because no one dared going against the local church not even the empire.

My grandparents had very different backgrounds. My grand father, a staunch labourite, worked in a thriving family business which made him in constant contact with foreign people. That contributed to make him quite open minded and well educated. My grand mother's father worked with the archbishop which made him as conservative as can be. Thus I was exposed of both point of view. I've met women of my grandparent's age (and even as young as women in their 40s) who believe that the good old ways were better, that women has no business in areas such as politics and high management and should stay at home bearing children. To this very day voters voting women in parliament was so shockingly low that adjustment measures were needed to facilitate women to enter parliament. That despite the majority of eligible voters in parliament are indeed women. Which is ironic really considering that the best current Maltese politician is actually female ie President of the European Parliament Roberta Metsola

I happen to have been born in a country who switched its mentality rather quickly in certain arguments such as gay rights (today Malta is at the forefront on that matter while the country I was raised in was hugely homophobic). From my experience countries will only change mentality when they are ready to do so. Forcing it either directly (war etc) or indirectly (insults, boycotts, sanctions etc) will only increase their hostility. Also note that changes aren't consistent and one can advance on one area and still be stuck in another area. Malta for example has a more stringent abortion rules then Saudi.
When you mix religion/church with state and/or legal system you will always be hanging behind when it comes to human rights, individual freedom and progress in general. Far behind.
In countries where power is shared by just a few and religion has a strong hold - positive changes for the masses tend to happen extremely slowly, if at all.
People living in dictatorships doesn't necessarily know they are being held back and that the informationflow they have access to is filtered and sensored.
There was a poster in here that claimed he trusted the laws because they were based on religion.....
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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If you wanted to say something or your contribution to this thread was until good lord only?


He is actually right, the concept of house maid or house help is very common in middle east and south asia. Because you have several kids and one mother to take care of them all, so you have house help from morning till evening. Or sometimes even both parents are working and it's cheaper to have house help than to enroll 2 kids to daycare for example, which is very expensive.
I think I was just a bit flabbergasted at your comment on judgment day and gay people tbh.
 

Adam-Utd

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We don't need to be owned by a nation state to win again. Be it Qatar, the US, Germany, Dubai, Bolivia etc.
I don't think anybody is saying that.

The reality is though, the Glazers are selling the club. They want Circa £6 billion.

It doesn't sound like Radcliffe is willing to pay that kind of money, and it doesn't seem so far publicly that there is any other individual capable or wanting to get involved.

People have wanted the Glazers gone, now this is the reality we face. It'll go to the highest bidder.
 

Fahad Jawaid

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You might not like it, but some people have different ideas with regards to what sort of owners and ownership model they'd like to see at United.
And they are happy to share their concerns. People didn't like the ownership of Glazers aswell and they made FC united, but to link the owners and make it about religion is wrong. That is what I was arguing yesterday.
 

Withnail

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expats are generally the poorer people in the middle east. What's your measure of women's rights then? It's also not how just western women feel. In general most women living in Qatar love the laws of the country
Have you done a survey?

Although historically most Cubans would have told you they loved Castro but it doesn't make it true.


Actually nobody is saying those things, you either really have a comprehension skills of a five year old or you are on wum just to derail the thread and make it about religion and make baseless comments.

The discussion should be about whether the owners are good for Manchester United football club against other potential owners, and whether they will do their outmost and make decisions in the best interest of Manchester united.

Instead you want to discuss what they do in their home country and why the religious laws of that country is made a certain way.

You are either a wum or a huge racist and spreading islamophobia in this thread. I think it's best to put you on ignore.
You can't limit the debate to those narrow parameters. Of course, if any state is attempting to purchase the club we are going to discuss the merits of that regime and their record on human rights etc.

Attempting to stifle debate and throwing racism and islamophobia accusations around isn't going to make anyone take you very seriously.
 

Crimson King

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It's an aspiration? Another lie we tell ourselves to sleep better at night. "All men and women are equal." Do we aspire to this, really? We say so. What do we do? "We are equal in the eyes of the law." Another one.

We are a self deluded species with a wonderful imagination and grand aspirations.
feck me, there's being jaded and cynical with the world, and then there's whatever this is.
 

Judas

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If your government told you slavery is right, would you fall for their propaganda? Eventually you will, just like every people out there. Because the world has always worked that way. Personal convictions are mostly based on governmental and religious policy.
Wow I thought you were wumming before. Are you actually alright?
 

Wumminator

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Have you done a survey?

Although historically most Cubans would have told you they loved Castro but it doesn't make it true.




You can't limit the debate to those narrow parameters. Of course, if any state is attempting to purchase the club we are going to discuss the merits of that regime and their record on human rights etc.

Attempting to stifle debate and throwing racism and islamophobia accusations around isn't going to make anyone take you very seriously.
Thank you. Great post.
 

HarryP

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Btw, there should really be a separate thread for moral objections towards Middle Eastern ownership IMO. Keep one thread for *news* and discussion directly related to that *news*. And another thread for all the other stuff.
 

AltiUn

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Absolutely, we get a few debts paid and we’re good to go as a sustainable business. But we’re not going to dive into spending 300m every window which some fans seem to think this means
Can't speak for everyone but for me the transfers are secondary to other issues at the club anyway, we already spend a lot. I want us to be debt free and the new owners to heavily invest in infrastructure such as the stadium, training facilities and the academy which the Glazers haven't given a toss about.
 

redcucumber

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Personally I'm against state ownership, European Super Leagues and all the other horrible things going on in football but to stand so steadfastly against them now while having said not a peep while football sold itself to the highest bidder decades ago doesn't appeal to me. I debated whether state ownership of United would be the end of my interest in football, and I've concluded that I'll probably keep watching with an acceptance that everything we win will come with an increasing feeling of hollowness.
I largely agree with this. It's a very sad state of affairs but the idea that I'd be able to suddenly stop following United is hard to countenance.
 

Judas

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Btw, there should really be a separate thread for moral objections towards Middle Eastern ownership and the rest of the takeover process. IMO. Keep one thread for news and discussion directly related to that news and another thread for the other stuff.
Of course this is what should happen, but the same people wouldn’t be able to stop themselves.
 

cyberman

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Absolutely, we get a few debts paid and we’re good to go as a sustainable business. But we’re not going to dive into spending 300m every window which some fans seem to think this means
I’m not sure. If I read ffp correctly then stadium and training ground costs doesn’t count towards spend so building a new stadium would being in naming rights etc that goes straight on to the credit side for ffp.
That’s why I don’t like this deal as a football fan. It can be constant 300m every year. Oh last years signing flopped, sell him for half price. At 40m and that’s give us extra for this summer on top as well.
We have the shirt sponsor renewal and Adidas as well plus the example I just mentioned that could completely buff up our spend alone.
Add in probable CL money as well. It wouldn’t be far off
 

Telsim

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Bloody hell, I'm starting to think this thread should be closed indefinitely. :houllier:
 

redcucumber

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You can't limit the debate to those narrow parameters. Of course, if any state is attempting to purchase the club we are going to discuss the merits of that regime and their record on human rights etc.

Attempting to stifle debate and throwing racism and islamophobia accusations around isn't going to make anyone take you very seriously.
Well said.
 

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On the political/ethical debate, my feeling is that cross-cultural exposure can help to modernise. The issues that people have with societal problems in the ME are completely valid as are the responses that societal problems exist everywhere else too. The fact that they are being discussed is an appropriate response to any attempts at sportwashing.

The issue of ownership of football clubs is entirely seperate. Football was lost to money many years ago and what is happening now is a symptom of the society that we in the UK participate in, so whatever is happening is as much our fault as anyone elses as we allow it to happen. There are various actions that we as individuals can undertake if we don't support the current situation, eg: not a single penny, FCUM, visible protest etc...
 

cyberman

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Do what though? All I can think is ban about half the posters in here
That’s above my pay grade.
Honestly ban all talk of religion etc and keep it to their own thread. There’s posters who feel strongly on the matter and Muslims who are feeling attacked. There’s going to be no stopping it otherwise
 

Adam-Utd

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Bloody hell, I'm starting to think this thread should be closed indefinitely. :houllier:
It'll just spill into another. Better to keep it in 1 place and let people talk it out.

People have opinions, fears and questions - better to get it out.

This could all be conjecture anyway, Qatar might not even win the bid?
 

Ish

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some of you make me sick. chasing the qatari dollar and not thinking long term. how stupid you’re gonna look when old trafford is turned into a mosque and players are forced to wear turbans. we’ll have to put up with arranged transfers and instead of kneeling for racism before the game, the players will have to kneel and pray to mecca five times during the game, allowing the opposition free rein to score. players like phil jones, deemed surplus to requirement, will be burnt down the ganges.

banning women and gays from coming to the ground on matchday does make sense though.
Imagine the amount of headers we'd score :drool:
 

The Boy

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Personally I'm against state ownership, European Super Leagues and all the other horrible things going on in football but to stand so steadfastly against them now while having said not a peep while football sold itself to the highest bidder decades ago doesn't appeal to me. I debated whether state ownership of United would be the end of my interest in football, and I've concluded that I'll probably keep watching with an acceptance that everything we win will come with an increasing feeling of hollowness.
I agree, the global money that has poured into English football is not a new thing, but to say this has happened without a peep is wrong. The protest against Murdoch buying United, for example, was huge and thankfully it was stopped, the Green and Gold campaign, lots of people were very uncomfortable with Ambramovich, Dubai and more recently Saudi Arabia.

The introduction of nation states into the game is just another horrifying step down that line, again there will be protests and outcry, but s long as people who run the game are coining it in sadly nothing will change. But for me, and I'm very aware I am one opinion in many, it's a sad and slippery slope and football is driving down it like a Ferrari on a bobsleigh track.
 
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