Yes, why not? I'll tell you my job if you want
Compulsory military service re-introduced in France.
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
If he wants to know you are going to miss your toenails.Yes, why not? I'll tell you my job if you want
Statistically, snowflakes are the likeliest to be triggered by the term snowflake.Nobody gets offended by restaurants menu fonts! so ridiculous...just when they get called snowflakes
The story reading like a generic video game plot was kind of what lead me to doubting the credibility of it's source.
I started writing something yesterday but I didn't actually finish it because I thought it might be a bit much. Now that you have mentioned it I was going to say something that's a bit of a paradox. Waterboarding is the most humane mode of torture and if you were being tortured somewhere outside of the West you'd be missing a a lot of body parts pretty quickly...If he wants to know you are going to miss your toenails.
Leave the thread and don't comeback.
I can take it though, I was in the Dutch army for a year, so I'm immune to torture.If he wants to know you are going to miss your toenails.
So you're a left wing liberal who condones the use of torture, is pro conscription and thinks people who take offense by black face are snowflakes. Which left wing liberal party do you most identify with the most? Or is that classified as well.
It is why I didn't mention it because it is a paradox and it does happen in the real world, as much as we might not want it to. It's like slaughtering animals for food, there's a difference between doing it in a humane way and inhumane way. This is what I'm trying to get at.
I didn't say I condone it, I said it's a last resort and it does happen because sometimes there just is no other choice. I'm a realist who understands the world we live in. If I were to be tortured, which could actually happen, I'd much prefer waterboarding to having my limbs cut off.
I never said anything about black face and I don't even know what that is? I believe conscription would be good for young people for reasons stated many times. I don't believe there is one party where a person would perfectly match with all of their values. I have made clear my anti-Tory stances in other threads and that I am a Labour supporter.
Waterboarding is not humane, even staunch supporters of waterboarding have had their minds changed after being waterboarded and have described it as incredibly inhumane. Saying it's the most humane method of torture may be technically true in the sense that having one arm cut off with a rusty blade is more humane than having both your arms and legs and penis cut off with a rusty blade, but someone horrific being less horrific than something else doesn't make it humane. That's a gross distortion. There's a chasm of difference between 'more humane than' and 'is humane'.
A battery is more "humane", waterboarding is truly awful.
But the thing is it does happen and while we may not find it acceptable it is a necessary evil in certain situations. I did say it is a paradox because all torture is inhumane, a violation of basic human rights, but as you have mentioned there are worse ways for it to be carried out and this is probably the least inhumane way to do it or the most humane.
My bad, I mixed you up with someone else who mentioned blackface.
That's the problem you call yourself a realist who understands the world is a bad place and have resigned yourself as such, that's fine. "The world" however, is not set in stone. Some people would like to see a better world. They might go about it in meaningless ways like ranting on Twitter, but there's nothing wrong with having ideals. Wanting a better world does not make you a snowflake. 400 years ago slavery was very common. Normal perfectly respectable people had slaves too, it wasn't considered bad, since that was simply the world they lived in. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive for the world to be a better place.
Nothing you say, makes you come of as a liberal. You can vote whichever way you want, but if you want a world according to your views, liberals are really not the crowd you should be rooting for.
And yes, I would preferred to be waterboarded over having my limbs cut off too, that doesn't make waterboarding any more humane, it just means there are things that are even more inhumane than waterboarding.
I don't think there's any evidence to back up either of those statements, and plenty to discredit them. I don't really know what you're basing either of those statements on.
You didn't thought that one through, waterboarding can last a long time, a very long time.
The fact that I have accepted the world we live in doesn't mean that I don't want a better world or for it to improve. The sole fact that I am a public servant in the Royal Navy should tell you enough about me as a person, unless your views are that people like me are murderous evil pieces of shit who join the armed forces to get their sadistic kicks.
Ranting about things and doing something about it are two different things, this is why I often called people hypocrites in this discussion or champagne socialists.
I strive every single day for the world to be a better place in ways that you couldn't possibly imagine and so do thousands of other men and women who as much as many of you will not believe improve the life of millions on a regular basis. Of course you do not such hear about selfless acts because they are not news worthy of clicking, they are not news worthy of causing an uproar and attracting attention. They simply aren't news. This is what I think fundamentally makes people snowflakes, finding something negative to be constantly up in arms about instead of finding something positive to be happy and proud of, and the media are playing to their tune. Over time the threshold has been lowered and lowered to the point that people find the font on restaurant menus offensive (I will find that twitter rant about that at some point and post it here).
I wish my country still had it going. Probably more than ever, these new generations are severely lacking a sense of duty, discipline, commitment and other things that you would expect from grown man.
I can't back it up with precise data but the vast majority of people i've met that went through military service, had something different to young adults or even those from the same generation as me (30y olds).
Military service at such early adulthood, which often meant being in the other side of the country on your own, meant that these kids had to become grown ups, liked it or not, they had to be responsible, often make things work with little. You wouldn't survive being a passive, low testosterone NEET.
When they tell you stories about the army, even if they romanticise a bit, you hear genuine adventures. These days kids boast about smoking a joint behind the school building FFS, or going to a music festival. You would do all of these in the army as well but it was the experiences that were recorded and not the facts.
PS: i'm not projecting at all.
I can't back it up with precise data but the vast majority of people i've met that went through military service, had something different to young adults or even those from the same generation as me (30y olds).
Military service at such early adulthood, which often meant being in the other side of the country on your own, meant that these kids had to become grown ups, liked it or not, they had to be responsible, often make things work with little. You wouldn't survive being a passive, low testosterone NEET.
When they tell you stories about the army, even if they romanticise a bit, you hear genuine adventures. These days kids boast about smoking a joint behind the school building FFS, or going to a music festival. You would do all of these in the army as well but it was the experiences that were recorded and not the facts.
PS: i'm not projecting at all.
As long as a lifetime without a limb?
The fact that you are in the Royal Navy tells me absolutely nothing about you as a person. It just tells me you are in the Royal Navy.
After a bit of research it also tell's me that when joining you were able to run 2.4 km in less than 12 minutes and you can do at least 25 push ups.
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It's very easy to discredit something that is a basic violation of human rights because it is plain and simple just wrong. This is why you won't get any data on its effectiveness because no one will admit to doing it.
@JPRouve mentioned battery here, electrocution can cause damage to the brain, and put strain on the heart and other organs that could cause someone with a problem to actually die. Not to mention subdermal damage to the tissue that can never be repaired.
But let's not make this a discussion of what torture is acceptable because it is not what I was getting at.
So for you a doctor, nurse, teacher, and other public servant are not people that work everyday to make a difference towards improving the world we live in?
I also explained everything below, I don't know why you chose to ignore it.
It depends on the limb and your lifetime. Waterboarding or light tortures will break your psyche, if it's the goal.
Yes but look at it this way. Some subjects that are waterboarded may develop PTSD and other mental traumas that will have lasting effects on them for many years and possibly a lifetime, but 100% of people who will have a limb cut off will miss that limb for the rest of their lives.
I was talking more about the fact that it's been shown empirically that torture doesn't result in intelligence wins, but a lot of the time ends with people just confessing things they've never done, just to make the pain stop. I don't get how you can then respond with, 'it's a necessary evil' when the results it produces are bogus, and that's before you get to the fundamental part that it's a violation of human rights. It would have to net an intelligence win at least 75% of the time to even bring that conversation to the table about using it as a method to begin with, which it doesn't, and even then it should probably be vetoed on human rights grounds.
I don't understand how you take this away from my statement. I simply said that you being in the navy doesn't tell me anything about you as a person. Or does the entire navy consist of people with the exact same personality and sets of values? I greatly doubt that. People from all levels can join the navy, some people might be striving to make the world a better place, some other people might just like boats.
Nurse is a silly examply to make though. Didn't you read about the German nurse who killed about a hundred patients out of boredom. Not really striving to make the world a better place.
@JPRouve waterboarding only lasts longer if I don't just instantly confess to whatever they want though
That's another shortcoming of torture. People will say anything to get out of it. Hell, I'm sure you can get thousands of people to confess to shooting JFK if you torture them long enough.
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It's not even debatable, you don't even know if you have any time to live. No one will tell himself, "they will waterboard me for a month and then let me go home", you guys need to get real.
Those professions don't wage war.
One thing I can assure you 100% is that if there are ineffective ways of gathering information they are weeded out very quickly because no one wants to have bogus or false information when peoples lives are at stake. It doesn't bring anyone pleasure to fail at their job of protecting civilians so they would do everything possible to strive in getting 100% accurate information 100% of the time. The fact that it has continued should tell you something about waterboarding and it's not sadistic people getting their kicks out of torturing another human being. There are plenty troops that suffer with PTSD over the things they have seen to the point that they have snapped and even committed suicide on many occasions. And don't come up with plucked out of the air figures and statistics because you don't know what the criteria is in evaluating information.
Neither do the armed forces, wise up.
The only studies that we have access to have shown that torture has a 0% success rate.
this is the dumbest thing you've said so far
Yes and everything that you don't know or have access to doesn't exist
As I said you need to wise up and accept that you're as complicit in any war as the person holding the gun on the front line. The difference is that you're safe in your room banging the keys on your computer keyboard while the person on the frontline is showered by bullets.
I've never voted for any politician who has voted for military action. But please, continue to make idiotic assumptions about me.
If torture worked, the army would be happy to provide proof to people with the highest security clearances for their studies. But it doesn't, so they don't. Instead all we get is sheep like you defending inhumane practices because the army can't possibly be a corrupt, destructive, war mongering organisation.Yes and everything that you don't know or have access to doesn't exist
Neuroscientists have actually done quite a alot of research on the subject of the effectiveness of torture. They all arrive at the similar conclusion that whilst torture gets you answers they are seldom the truth.
"Torture does not persuade people to make a reasoned decision to cooperate, but produces panic, dissociation, unconsciousness and long-term neurological damage" (Shane O'mara, 2009)
From the same guy:
"In countless films and TV shows such as Homeland and 24, torture is portrayed as a harsh necessity. If cruelty can extract secrets that will save lives, so be it."
There's also quite a lot of neuro scientists who have studied the effectiveness of torture all arriving at the similar conclusion; it will get you answers, but most of the time the answer will not be truthful. Abuse also results in disorientation which distorts and clouds memory. The fact we're even debating this is madness honestly.
"Torture does not persuade people to make a reasoned decision to cooperate, but produces panic, dissociation, unconsciousness and long-term neurological damage" (Shane O'mara, 2009)
From the same guy:
"In countless films and TV shows such as Homeland and 24, torture is portrayed as a harsh necessity. If cruelty can extract secrets that will save lives, so be it."
You are too naive to realise that supporting and voting for any political party means that you absolutely have, because every party has or has had a defence policy in place which has included military action. You really do live in a world of your own don't you. Sigh.
This thread is hilarious the conversation is so far off what drove it's creation.
There are a lot of politicians who regularly vote against military action.
This is very much head in the sand moment. Please continue to embarrass yourself on your high horse and continue to deny the facts.
You have voted to bring in a government that has voted for military action and you won't accept that it makes you complicit because it distorts what seems like your augmented reality. Labour's own shadow secretary voted for military action in Libya and in Iraq and voted against an inquiry to the latter.
You're so delusional it's worrying.
I'm not sure if you know how the UK political system works, but I only get a vote for one MP, not for a party. And I've never voted for an MP that approved any military action.
I think it is you who doesn't understand how the UK political system works. The party with the most MP's has the chance to form a government and by electing MP's the aim is to bring that government in power. You are a Labour supporter and if they came into power you can't pick and choose what policies you helped to implement or what people you helped to bring into power because that is not how real life works.
I'm actually a Green supporter and help the local party party sometimes. But please, continue with your incorrect assumptions. Is getting everything wrong about people something they taught you in the Navy?
So you are a hippy?