Ronaldo has been the better player during the last 2 years. I don't think that it is even close this season and unless Messi has an impressive World Cup, Ronaldo will defend his Ballon D'Or trophy.
Cristiano and Messi (Comparisons between the two HERE ONLY)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Can anyone find their respective goals to shot % ratio over the past few seasons? Think that could be a pretty damning statistic for Ronaldo despite their fairly even goals to game ratio.
Messi strikes me as a far more efficient player. When you look at all the chances Messi has laid on for his team mates over the years - only for them to miss - maybe if he was more selfish and goal-centric like Ronaldo he would have racked up more shots on goal and possibly even more goals than he has done. Which is incredible really.
Messi strikes me as a far more efficient player. When you look at all the chances Messi has laid on for his team mates over the years - only for them to miss - maybe if he was more selfish and goal-centric like Ronaldo he would have racked up more shots on goal and possibly even more goals than he has done. Which is incredible really.
I still don't get how shot% ratio is important, surely time to gaol ratio is more important if you really want to break it down further.
If you take a very extreme case of someone who only ever shots when he gets a tap-in or a striker who shoots on sight and score much more, it's better to shoot on sight, no?
Now I'm not arguing Messi only gets tap-ins, but trying to dribble and losing the ball makes no difference from shooting from 30 yards and putting it off target.
Dribbling and shooting are two different things, how can they be compared?
I can see why you wouldn't be keen on that stat though because it's not going to reflect favourably on Ronaldo
Dribbling and gets tackled or shooting off target result in the same thing -> losing possession.Dribbling and shooting are two different things, how can they be compared?
I can see why you wouldn't be keen on that stat though because it's not going to reflect favourably on Ronaldo
Ultimately it's goals that count and a Maradona against England dribble past 7 players goals only counts as much as the ball bouncing off your ass (in terms of the game).
Dribbling takes players out of the game. It opens up space for shots an passes. Messi usually has the most completed dribbles in Europe. Maybe not this season, but he did in something like the previous 5 seasons.
It's hardly comparable to just blasting the ball at goal from 30 yards and seeing 1 in 50 fly in.
By that logic, Barcelona should have scored lots more goals than Real Madrid. But the fact is Barca's goals are even more concentrated on Messi than Real's on Ronaldo.
Successful dribbles have that effect you mentioned, unsuccessful ones do not. For every Messi dribble that you see on youtube where he goes past multiple players, there are lots more where he just runs into the oppositions or gets tackled.
Both are like, awesome players. Simply the best players I have ever seen, since I was born in the 90s. Don't know much about the ones before, especially since football footage was so rare back then!
It's quite difficult to say who's better, Messi or Ronaldo. It certainly looks like Messi has more natural talent, but Ronaldo has been performing better. Well, it's kind of a circular argument, isn't it.
Messi is better because of A, B, C.
Ronaldo is better because of B, C, D.
But since Messi has A, Messi is better.
But Ronaldo has D, so Ronaldo is better.
But A is better than D. NOOO, D is better than A.
Well, screw you biatch. I don't think you're right, because D is obviously better than A.
NO! A is better than D.
And the process goes on.
It's quite difficult to say who's better, Messi or Ronaldo. It certainly looks like Messi has more natural talent, but Ronaldo has been performing better. Well, it's kind of a circular argument, isn't it.
Messi is better because of A, B, C.
Ronaldo is better because of B, C, D.
But since Messi has A, Messi is better.
But Ronaldo has D, so Ronaldo is better.
But A is better than D. NOOO, D is better than A.
Well, screw you biatch. I don't think you're right, because D is obviously better than A.
NO! A is better than D.
And the process goes on.
u wot m8.gif
Just to show how predictable the argument will be:
A= Dribbling + passing/playmaking
D= Aerial ability
Cristiano has been better than Messi for some time now.
He's playing spectacular and efficiant football and really enjoys himself on the pitch.
Messi on the other side looks like he's playing with less passion than before and for whatever reason(s) (injuries/manager changes) his dip in form is understandable, he had monstruous numbers, couldn't go on with that forever.
He's playing spectacular and efficiant football and really enjoys himself on the pitch.
Messi on the other side looks like he's playing with less passion than before and for whatever reason(s) (injuries/manager changes) his dip in form is understandable, he had monstruous numbers, couldn't go on with that forever.
Hasn't Messi scored more goals since Ronaldo won the Balon D'or again?
Or has that changed in recent weeks? Certainly Ronnie went off the boil for a bit prior to his last injury scoring wise.
Or has that changed in recent weeks? Certainly Ronnie went off the boil for a bit prior to his last injury scoring wise.
It's good of him to admit he is very young and has not extensively watched past greats in order to have an opinion. Most people who say Maradona was better than Messi or Cruyff better than Ronaldo have in all probability never, or watched very little of the past greats but pretend to be fully versed in the history of the game. What is certain, is that both Christiano and Messi have been delivering at a stupendous rate, that seems (statistics-wise at the very least) to far surpass almost all (if not all) of the past giants.
Dribbling is a massively important skill. It commits men to the ball and frees up masses of space for teammates in an instant.
One of the reasons for example that Zidane was so much better than say Scholes is that Zidane could just pick up the ball beat two or three players like it was nothing, completely taking them out of the game and forcing even more players to commit to tackling him, leaving loads of space for Ronaldo, Raul, Henry etc...
Could someone do the stats for goals scored to minutes of team possession?
Ever since the start of the year 2014, Messi has been in amazing goalscoring form, scoring 26 goals and made 6 assists in 26 games.
Whereas Ronaldo has scored 24 goals made 5 assist in 24 games, 1 goals per game, exactly the same as Messi. Only difference is he played 2 games less.
So statistically they are on par, but Ronaldo broke the CL goalscoring record and lead Real into the CL finals though, and won the league cup too, so I'd say he has the edge over Messi, even Messi was in amazing run of form.
In terms of consistency and delivery, no one could ever match Messi or Ronaldo, just none.
But then players like Maradona and Cruyff, they did reach the pinnacle of the game that no one could ever surpass ("Singled handedly" won the world cup and Serie A, best league ever, with a team under "limited" resource in perfect style, revolutionize the game with total football the world have never seen and influence the game no one could ever match etc)
That's a bit rich, pardon the pun. Napoli of that period with limited resources? They spent a world record transfer fee on Maradona in 1984 (approx. 13.5 billion lire or £5M)
The next season, 1985/86, they acquired four new players (Garella, Renica, Filardi, Pecci) for a total of 11 billion lire + Bruno Giordano from Lazio for 5 billion lire.
In 1986/87 (their first title-winning season) they brought in De Napoli for 5.8 billion lire, Carnevale for 4 billion lire and Romano for 2.1 billion lire.
In 1987/88 they brought in Francini for 5.9 billion lire and Careca for 4 billion lire.
In 1988/89 they acquired Crippa for 7.6 billion lire, Fusi for 5.8 billion lire and Alemão for 4.6 billion lire.
Couldn't find any figures for Bagni and Bertoni (both arrived in 1984).
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None of the Messi fanbois will be too keen on that stat...
Breaking it down to stats like shots-per-goal or goals-to-minute ratio isn't as meaningful as a lot of posters here seem to think. If a match finishes 3-2, all that matters is that the team that scored 3 goals won because they scored more. Even if you looked up the stats and saw that the winning team took 15 shots and losing team only took the 2 they scored with, it wouldn't change anything.
Now, I'm not saying that scoring more is the only important thing in football. Being clinical or creative are also important factors in comparing attackers, separate from just racking up a large tally. But the way some people spout lines like "Player A is better because he takes less shots" like it's some knockdown argument is ridiculous. It really isn't. And as it relates to Leo vs Cristiano, it's almost a non-factor; the way their respective teams play and how they build up their attack contributes more to that stat than the talent of the individuals.
Now, I'm not saying that scoring more is the only important thing in football. Being clinical or creative are also important factors in comparing attackers, separate from just racking up a large tally. But the way some people spout lines like "Player A is better because he takes less shots" like it's some knockdown argument is ridiculous. It really isn't. And as it relates to Leo vs Cristiano, it's almost a non-factor; the way their respective teams play and how they build up their attack contributes more to that stat than the talent of the individuals.
fanbois? and what are you? a true and unbias observer?None of the Messi fanbois will be too keen on that stat...
to be fair, why would a possession to goals stat be relevant in any way? for all the possession they have a huge portion is sideways and backwards around midfield and defense. For all the possession they have the same player every year has more attempts on goal than any other in Europe, and he doesn't play for Barca.
Did I ever say I'm unbiased?
Not saying it's you in particular, but one general rule for Messi fanbois is they refuse to accept other people have different opinions and get all childish about it with their name-calling...
Probably not, and yet, all these other statistics keep popping up. I know stats show that Messi loses possession on the dribble more than almost anyone, and that seems fairly comparable to Ronaldo, who takes more shots. [People dwell on the Ronaldo stat, but not the Messi stat -- if there was someone scoring 10 goals a game because he never gave the ball away, I'm sure he'd be noticed too.]None of the Messi fanbois will be too keen on that stat...
It seems that Messi, who's on a team with typically 75% possession (it's a guess at that number) would have many more chances than a team with 50% possession (made that number up too).
I'd like to know if someone's ever quantified the advantage Messi has in this regard.
Try goals per hissy fit/girly preen/petulant wank
It's not as simple as that. A team which usually plays with 75% possession is more likely to have a packed defense in front of them than the team wihch has 50% possession. That's just one confounding variable.
Are we talking for posters or players here? I think the Messi fans definitely have the hissy fit corner mastered. I can't say for preening or wanking...
That's the clear message here, some people go on and on about how dribbling retains possession and shooting does not yet fail to account for failed dribbles.
Well, those people are Messi fanboys so what do you expect?
That's a fair point and I also agree with another poster's view about how Messi's unsuccessful dribbles are comparable to Ronaldo's unsuccessful shots. I'm not a Messi fan boy but I do rate him as the better of the two and I guess that really does come down to personal preference at this point. These two could possibly go down as the two GOAT. They're both remarkable professionals and will be idolised by generations to come.They're like the yin and yang of football from an attacking sense and all future greats will be compared to these two, not pele nor maradona.
No. The all time trophy is between Pele, Maradona and Messi. Ronaldo has to fight his corner against Di Stefano, Cruyff, Platini, Ronfataldo etc
Cristiano > Messi.
I would consider di Stefano to be higher than Ronaldo. Imo the only reason di Stefano is not considered to be alongside maradona and pele is because he never got to play at a world cup due to being not being eligible for two and also getting injured before another. The closest he came to playing in one was when he represented spain but in the end they did not qualify. Its hard to think of many players that had a better career than him and I have read interviews where both pele and maradona have called him the best. Im not saying he was the best ever as that is impossible to say but he would have to be ranked higher than Ronaldo imo and not far off pele and maradona, maybe messi too. He is not out of place being mentioned alongside pele and maradona imo.
Found this site comparing both players.
messivsronaldo.net
messivsronaldo.net
It gets difficult when you cross TV generations. There's a fair amount t of footage of Pele, practically none of di Stefano, grainy shit of Maradona, Beckenbaur et al, and full every fart in sensaround of modern players. Ronxaldo is definitely tier II IMO.
'Pele had nearly everything. Maradona has everything. He works harder, does more and is more skilful. Trouble is that he'll be remembered for another reason. He bends the rules to suit himself.' Alf Ramsey.
Maradona's career choices were eccentric for a player of his abilities. He seemed to prefer to be the main man in a less fashionable club rather than try to function with other world class players at the biggest clubs. Maybe that is just what worked for him given his fairly constant stream of off-field issues. Another flawed genius like Garrincha and Best.
Messi may not be more talented but will end up ahead because he has the personal maturity to maximise his achievements.
Maradona's career choices were eccentric for a player of his abilities. He seemed to prefer to be the main man in a less fashionable club rather than try to function with other world class players at the biggest clubs. Maybe that is just what worked for him given his fairly constant stream of off-field issues. Another flawed genius like Garrincha and Best.
Messi may not be more talented but will end up ahead because he has the personal maturity to maximise his achievements.
This post is a response to the posts I saw in Page 312 and 313 of the Cristiano Ronaldo thread.
Messi after Cassano has had the very best final ball in the world in the past 3 years.
There are some key differences between being the most dangerous passer, and being the best passer.
Accuracy and precision wise messi is at the very top, but there are supreme passers with more finesse like iniesta, fabregas, alonso, pirlo, riquelme, cassano, totti, veron, hell I think the likes of cazorla or silva are almost comparable in skill and precision (cazorla being very underrated in particular).
The thing is, messi is a pure attacking passer. Xabi Alonso is probably the most skilled passer in the world in my opinion, he's as good if a hair less precise then pirlo but just has Gerrard-esque weighting and range on his passes. He can pick pretty much any pass possible.
However, xabi Alonso is not even in the 20 most dangerous passers in the world despite his unmatched total passing ability.
The key in final ball is vision. If you look at just Barcelona, they have 4 superb passers, xavi, cesc and iniesta are probably more precise (slightly), and have more range, you would be shocked at just how amazing the weighting and range on iniesta's passes are if you actually watched barca. At this moment iniesta is pretty clearly the most skilled passer at Barcelona, but only the 3rd most dangerous passer, and that's all got to do with vision and the ability to execute and recognize that final pass.
In the final ball ability, the ability to create space, draw in defenders, or recognize a run and execute, vision is critical. You could be the most skilled and ranged passer in the world, but you still can't make a pass that you don't see, and that's just the thing, Messi sees these runs and executes.
If you take the context of Messi's positioning, and the total evaluation of passing ability by considering the Danger level of the passer due to his directness and vision, and the skill level, Messi is very much at the very very top. It's not a stupid thing to say Messi is a better passer then say Xavi, Xavi is clearly superior in precision, Messi is superb in that aspect but xavi is pretty much the measure for precision. Danger level though Messi has the inverse advantage, he's clearly more dangerous in incisive ability, vision, and through balls, even though Xavi is just superb (was- all speaking of prime xavi).
I want to know who the hell made up this 'style and teammates help messi pass' bullshit? Are they hearing themselves? What the hell has the teammates movement got anything to do with the ability to execute a pass or recognize it? When Messi has the ball, he is not obligated to pass, he is not obligated to do anything, he could even just retain possession and pass it backwards if he chooses to. Football is a difference of choices, and to execute a pass is a choice, not a fecking drill.
If the 'teammates help messi pass' thing had an ounce of truth to it, why have iniesta and cesc always been behind, and sometimes FAR behind in messi's final ball production rates? Even when messi plays as a more isolated or high hanging attacker, the few times he drops back and gets involved in buildup play he finds far more attacking solutions then iniesta and cesc with their godly passing ability can.
Passing danger has to include vision, and you can't disregard it by these 'theories' that "these players make those runs all the time, so it's easy for messi to make the pass".
I seriously get ticked off by that retarded fecking logic. These people obviously watch nothing of Messi except what they can to use in arguments as to why Ronaldo is better.
Messi does the same fecking thing for the national team if not more. He's a playmaker, a passer, of course you build around such a player with such passing ability, and OF COURSE YOU MAKE RUNS WHEN YOU KNOW THE PASSER HAS THE ABILTY TO PUT THE BALL ON YOUR FOOT PERFECTLY.
If it was so easy WHY DOES NO ONE ELSE DO IT? Why is it that nobody can replicate what Messi does in his passing to even half of the same extent? It's because these dumbass Ronaldo fanboys are looking at everything Messi does with stupefying bias.
Messi has the ability to draw defenders away, and play simple passes THAT NOONE ELSE SEES.
look at this:
Noone in the world is capable of what he did there. The pass can be regarded as simple, and not overwhelmingly difficult in execution, but to draw in 5 defenders, and slip in a reverse pass with perfect balance and weight to a runner darting in from your peripheral vision, this is a nearly impossible thing to do, and it's why so many defenders gambled on closing down on Messi, that pass is simply not something you could possibly conceive. And he does it all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVPZlY-4Y4Q
So messi has the Vision and perfect storm of attributes to play these small short intricate final balls, but THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE LACKS IN PASSING RANGE.
This is irrefutable passing skill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsMJ05r5ons
Seriously, I am mega disappointed in this crap you've come up with @Vato1979 , How many 20-30 yard assists has Messi made against Madrid alone?
Let's take a look at some forgotten but famous examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UKh2PguFJQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7R639d_-To
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxy2ikgk9qs
Final word, to those who say Messi's passing is a product of the Barcleona system, please actually bother watching Messi with Argentina and try to fit your theory with what he does there.
It seems pretty obvious to me that posters like @steffyr2 , or @Cal? , @RedRonaldo , and @The Man Himself don't care enough to carefully and fully watch those Messi pass compilations, I don't blame them, why watch 25 minutes of a player you aren't interested in other then as a foil? But it's also clear that some of these posters have had the audacity to take examples of minor passes not demonstrative of Messi's full passing ability, and consider that as the limit and identity of his passing, having not even fully bothered to watch Messi fairly or honestly.
I don't give a rats ass about who's better between messi or Ronaldo, but I can't stand this horseshit that I'm seeing in this thread. I've never seen a set of people actually just make up a bunch of bullshit and pretend it's real or has any meaning to it. It's pretty fecking pathetic.
Messi after Cassano has had the very best final ball in the world in the past 3 years.
There are some key differences between being the most dangerous passer, and being the best passer.
Accuracy and precision wise messi is at the very top, but there are supreme passers with more finesse like iniesta, fabregas, alonso, pirlo, riquelme, cassano, totti, veron, hell I think the likes of cazorla or silva are almost comparable in skill and precision (cazorla being very underrated in particular).
The thing is, messi is a pure attacking passer. Xabi Alonso is probably the most skilled passer in the world in my opinion, he's as good if a hair less precise then pirlo but just has Gerrard-esque weighting and range on his passes. He can pick pretty much any pass possible.
However, xabi Alonso is not even in the 20 most dangerous passers in the world despite his unmatched total passing ability.
The key in final ball is vision. If you look at just Barcelona, they have 4 superb passers, xavi, cesc and iniesta are probably more precise (slightly), and have more range, you would be shocked at just how amazing the weighting and range on iniesta's passes are if you actually watched barca. At this moment iniesta is pretty clearly the most skilled passer at Barcelona, but only the 3rd most dangerous passer, and that's all got to do with vision and the ability to execute and recognize that final pass.
In the final ball ability, the ability to create space, draw in defenders, or recognize a run and execute, vision is critical. You could be the most skilled and ranged passer in the world, but you still can't make a pass that you don't see, and that's just the thing, Messi sees these runs and executes.
If you take the context of Messi's positioning, and the total evaluation of passing ability by considering the Danger level of the passer due to his directness and vision, and the skill level, Messi is very much at the very very top. It's not a stupid thing to say Messi is a better passer then say Xavi, Xavi is clearly superior in precision, Messi is superb in that aspect but xavi is pretty much the measure for precision. Danger level though Messi has the inverse advantage, he's clearly more dangerous in incisive ability, vision, and through balls, even though Xavi is just superb (was- all speaking of prime xavi).
I want to know who the hell made up this 'style and teammates help messi pass' bullshit? Are they hearing themselves? What the hell has the teammates movement got anything to do with the ability to execute a pass or recognize it? When Messi has the ball, he is not obligated to pass, he is not obligated to do anything, he could even just retain possession and pass it backwards if he chooses to. Football is a difference of choices, and to execute a pass is a choice, not a fecking drill.
If the 'teammates help messi pass' thing had an ounce of truth to it, why have iniesta and cesc always been behind, and sometimes FAR behind in messi's final ball production rates? Even when messi plays as a more isolated or high hanging attacker, the few times he drops back and gets involved in buildup play he finds far more attacking solutions then iniesta and cesc with their godly passing ability can.
Passing danger has to include vision, and you can't disregard it by these 'theories' that "these players make those runs all the time, so it's easy for messi to make the pass".
I seriously get ticked off by that retarded fecking logic. These people obviously watch nothing of Messi except what they can to use in arguments as to why Ronaldo is better.
Messi does the same fecking thing for the national team if not more. He's a playmaker, a passer, of course you build around such a player with such passing ability, and OF COURSE YOU MAKE RUNS WHEN YOU KNOW THE PASSER HAS THE ABILTY TO PUT THE BALL ON YOUR FOOT PERFECTLY.
If it was so easy WHY DOES NO ONE ELSE DO IT? Why is it that nobody can replicate what Messi does in his passing to even half of the same extent? It's because these dumbass Ronaldo fanboys are looking at everything Messi does with stupefying bias.
Messi has the ability to draw defenders away, and play simple passes THAT NOONE ELSE SEES.
look at this:
Noone in the world is capable of what he did there. The pass can be regarded as simple, and not overwhelmingly difficult in execution, but to draw in 5 defenders, and slip in a reverse pass with perfect balance and weight to a runner darting in from your peripheral vision, this is a nearly impossible thing to do, and it's why so many defenders gambled on closing down on Messi, that pass is simply not something you could possibly conceive. And he does it all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVPZlY-4Y4Q
So messi has the Vision and perfect storm of attributes to play these small short intricate final balls, but THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE LACKS IN PASSING RANGE.
This is irrefutable passing skill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsMJ05r5ons
Seriously, I am mega disappointed in this crap you've come up with @Vato1979 , How many 20-30 yard assists has Messi made against Madrid alone?
Let's take a look at some forgotten but famous examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UKh2PguFJQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7R639d_-To
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxy2ikgk9qs
Final word, to those who say Messi's passing is a product of the Barcleona system, please actually bother watching Messi with Argentina and try to fit your theory with what he does there.
It seems pretty obvious to me that posters like @steffyr2 , or @Cal? , @RedRonaldo , and @The Man Himself don't care enough to carefully and fully watch those Messi pass compilations, I don't blame them, why watch 25 minutes of a player you aren't interested in other then as a foil? But it's also clear that some of these posters have had the audacity to take examples of minor passes not demonstrative of Messi's full passing ability, and consider that as the limit and identity of his passing, having not even fully bothered to watch Messi fairly or honestly.
I don't give a rats ass about who's better between messi or Ronaldo, but I can't stand this horseshit that I'm seeing in this thread. I've never seen a set of people actually just make up a bunch of bullshit and pretend it's real or has any meaning to it. It's pretty fecking pathetic.