Dalot or AWB?

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Ali Dia

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I'm with you and @RedStarUnited . There's no training in the world that will make AWB even average at ball control and short passing. The "raw ingredients" that go into that are dexterity and balance, then training can increase accuracy, consistency, speed of execution, etc. But him and his legs will not ever make an average professional player in ball control, he's just too uncoordinated.
The main thing with AWB is that he’s really bad when he’s pressed. He puts the other defenders and midfielders under pressure. I think there’s still a serviceable player there but he’s also in theory a saleable asset and we’ve been spending a lot and that will need to be balanced out. I mostly wouldn’t be against letting him go even on the cheap because his game time has totally dried up under the new manager. I think his downfall started around the time he got caught for that driving offence. Maybe his private life isn’t good and it’s really affected his confidence. Who knows? He looked a lot better before then.
 

RedStarUnited

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What a load of tosh. Of course technique can be and is trained; there's nothing natural about the way a human kicks a football, none of it is ergonomically natural.
Lets agree to disaagree. There are things that I believe a person is born with. You cant convince me that any person can train to be as good at dribbling as Messi.
 

That'sHernandez

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Ok - so who has made massive strides in that regard as a professional? Are there any examples of a 24 year old player with below average technical ability and make vast improvements? Would be great if there was examples.

I sincerely hope somebody can coach AWB to be competent technically, I don't think he has enough natural ability though.
I have no idea and don't particularly care to look if I'm honest.

I'm not defending AWB, just taking issue with the idea that a player can't improve their technique if they want to.
 

That'sHernandez

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Lets agree to disaagree. There are things that I believe a person is born with. You cant convince me that any person can train to be as good at dribbling as Messi.
That's technique aided by a low centre of gravity. You are not born with the ability to play football, simple as that.
 

Red4Life_#7

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In another 6 months, people would laugh at this thread. AWB is one of the worst signings we have ever made . 50m for a cultural reboot shit.
Agreed. AWB may be pleasing on the eye with his slide tackling and strong one on one defensive skills, but these are his only skills. Even his positional defensive skills are shocking, the amount of goals we've conceded from a cross from the right wing.

50m wasted. We would be lucky to recoup 25m even in this market. Best option is to loan out in Jan with a mandatory clause to buy in the summer. We have a few months to find his replacement, so this process should have started already.
 

Revaulx

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I didn't say it can't be improved, you have failed to read. I said the margins for improving it appear limited at the higher levels and after the teenage years. This is made clear by the lack of examples there are of players being able to do this. We might see refinement but we don't see shite to good.

And yes I would say the same for Dalot. However, Dalot is starting from a higher baseline. This is the exact reason Ralf and now ETH ditched AWB. It wasn't for Dalot's superior athleticism or one v one defending, was it?
Actually I think that could have been part of it.

I’m not saying he lacks athleticism, but AWB’s is more of a “stop-start” type; he doesn’t seem to be capable of the sustained intensity that Dalot can manage.
 

Abraxas

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Actually I think that could have been part of it.

I’m not saying he lacks athleticism, but AWB’s is more of a “stop-start” type; he doesn’t seem to be capable of the sustained intensity that Dalot can manage.
Maybe, although I don't think it's compelling because before this season we saw very little in the way of intensity from Dalot. Maybe he showed it in training, but to be honest Dalot was thoroughly okay last season. It was not exactly lung busting stuff, and he lacked aggression in most of his duels. I don't think you would look at Dalot last season and think there's a guy that can be adapted to play with intensity, but that AWB bloke can't. The fact is the intensity and aggression has come about through the manager, everyone has been made to step it up.

I find it a bit more likely that ETH wanted full backs that build up a little more effectively, so that they are relatively effective at tucking into midfield areas which seems to be a feature. I think that's where the far more notable advantages are which would be immediately apparent to the manager.
 

JJ12

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I have no idea and don't particularly care to look if I'm honest.

I'm not defending AWB, just taking issue with the idea that a player can't improve their technique if they want to.
Probably not many out there if you’d have to go actively looking to be fair.

Considering how strongly you thought about it I thought there must be some examples.
 

RedStarUnited

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That's technique aided by a low centre of gravity. You are not born with the ability to play football, simple as that.
That statement you keep sticking with about being born to play football, no one has said that. But there are things you are born with that can accelerate or increase your capacity to play football.
 

TheNewEra

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Dalot, I backed AWB 3 seasons ago thinking he might progress going forward and be coached but he won't now.

He's had 3 seasons, and we need to dominate teams. AWB won't help create chances and goals, so he's done at the club.
 

That'sHernandez

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That statement you keep sticking with about being born to play football, no one has said that. But there are things you are born with that can accelerate or increase your capacity to play football.
But that doesn’t mean you can’t learn technique, which is what you originally stated.
 

PieCrust

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AWB has never shown any signs of development of his attacking game, which is just woeful. He's a good tackler, but is also often found out of position and we end up being punished because of it.

Dalot probably will never be good enough either and will need to be replaced next summer, but he can at least take the ball forward and can at time come up with a decent end product. He can be a liability defending, but with how often AWB is found out of position I see no downside in playing Dalot over AWB. Dalot is also the better RB to partner with Antony.
 
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But that doesn’t mean you can’t learn technique, which is what you originally stated.
Seems like an extremely pedantic back-and-forth to get into, this.

I thought it was quite clear when the other poster said "AWB is awful on the ball and that can not be improved via training", they meant that a 24-year-old Premier League footballer is unlikely to improve his on-the-ball skills at this point in his career to get to the level a top club requires, given that he's quite far behind the elite players in his position. Not that literally nobody can be taught basic footballing technique or that kids are born with the ability to play football.
 

That'sHernandez

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Seems like an extremely pedantic back-and-forth to get into, this.

I thought it was quite clear when the other poster said "AWB is awful on the ball and that can not be improved via training", they meant that a 24-year-old Premier League footballer is unlikely to improve his on-the-ball skills at this point in his career to get to the level a top club requires, given that he's quite far behind the elite players in his position. Not that literally nobody can be taught basic footballing technique or that kids are born with the ability to play football.
It’s hardly pedantic. He’s saying technique can’t be taught, which is why Pep Guardiola doesn’t buy players with poor technique, which is simply false.

If he meant what you said in italics, he should have said it.
 

harms

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It’s hardly pedantic. He’s saying technique can’t be taught, which is why Pep Guardiola doesn’t buy players with poor technique, which is simply false.

If he meant what you said in italics, he should have said it.
It is 100% pedantic. There’s nothing weird about that statement which is followed by an explanatory example (Pep don’t buy…) for those who think that he speculates about abstract concepts.

Will “100%” trigger a pedantic response?
 
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He’s saying technique can’t be taught, which is why Pep Guardiola doesn’t buy players with poor technique, which is simply false.
I mean, again, the message here is that Guardiola wants players with an extremely high technical base and would rather spend big money on buying players that meet his requirements (example: Ederson, Bernardo Silva) than buying or trying to improve players he thinks don't meet the baseline (example: Hart, Iheanacho, Mangala). This is obviously not the same thing as saying Guardiola does not coach his players and improve their technique, or that Hart could never improve his technique even slightly.

Someone else asked you to name a few examples of players of Wan Bissaka's age who significantly developed their technical levels (a fair ask considering how strongly you're wording your posts here) and you brushed it aside (after first making an extremely basic remark about kids learning how to kick the ball). All of which suggests you're just being extremely literal for the sake of point-scoring.
 

Lost bear

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In pragmatic philosophy, the nature- nurture question is considered ‘undecidable’. Like most such debates, there’s something wrong with the underlying conceptual framework within which the question is posed.

I would suggest that we stick with the idea that certain characteristics like balance, dexterity and so on are innate, though they can often be enhanced to some extent by teaching. That is not the same as saying that people are born able to play football, which is clearly a bit silly.
 

liman

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That doesn't even make sense. AWB is both quick and tenacious and a ball winner. He is much better in transition when he has players in close proximity to him. He can play himself out of small spaces, as he has shown. An organised press could be very effective, if he has the capacity to learn it.
I think what we should be doing is selling him before his value plummet even further ( already plummet since Crystal palace offer no more than 10m ). One of the most ,if not the most untalented player in the squad , funny how Lukaku was mocked because of his first touch , because this guy first touch is even worse , don't tell me about his sliding tackle skill as if that would make him a better footballer ,because then you can also say the same about how Lukaku is a great goalscorer. In my opinion , AWB barely looks like a footballer and should consider changing sports.
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ETH has seen something in AWB and that’s why he is still here
I think there is a lot of potential there and he was brilliant in his 1st season
Nobody looked good playing in that team last season and even Varane looked rubbish
Hopefully ETH will be able to improve players and give them confidence
There is a good player in there that just needs to rebuild confidence
Yeah ETH has seen something that's why he wanted him sold but then realize he will have no cover at RB if the club didn't get him his replacement. Unless Dalot is injured i don't see him playing under ETH except some cup games / europe league when there is nothing on stake.

Even tomorrow against Sociedad, Dalot will start again.

I mean, again, the message here is that Guardiola wants players with an extremely high technical base and would rather spend big money on buying players that meet his requirements (example: Ederson, Bernardo Silva) than buying or trying to improve players he thinks don't meet the baseline (example: Hart, Iheanacho, Mangala). This is obviously not the same thing as saying Guardiola does not coach his players and improve their technique, or that Hart could never improve his technique even slightly.

Someone else asked you to name a few examples of players of Wan Bissaka's age who significantly developed their technical levels (a fair ask considering how strongly you're wording your posts here) and you brushed it aside (after first making an extremely basic remark about kids learning how to kick the ball). All of which suggests you're just being extremely literal for the sake of point-scoring.
The answer is none , with all due respect. A nerd won't become better at sports against those who born gifted with athleticism .You won't become faster , nor jump longer or higher than those gifted with it. Same as playing football, there are people who are able to juggle the ball since early age without much training while others struggled to do it no matter how much practice. Which is why footballer is footballer while the others remains as fans who sat at the stadium. AWB will not technically turn into Messi even if he train in time chamber.
 
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SAFMUTD

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It depends on which team, for a low-medium table team that plays with a low block AWB would be amazing. His weaknesses is leaving space behind and being almost useless in attack, he wont have those problems if playing in a low block.

Dalot in every other situation.
 

Greck

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ETH has seen something in AWB and that’s why he is still here
I think there is a lot of potential there and he was brilliant in his 1st season
Nobody looked good playing in that team last season and even Varane looked rubbish
Hopefully ETH will be able to improve players and give them confidence
There is a good player in there that just needs to rebuild confidence
If reports are to be believed was literally the first person told to leave. Dalot didn't become an instant starter by random choice. AWB didn't even play with the A team in preseason. He was subbed on with the bench players and kids lineups. Guy has been marginalised from day 0.

It's reportedly the club dragging its feet on his sale. Which comes as no real surprise because they seem to have no clue what players are compatible for ETH. Lukaku has a higher chance of landing on a Pep team.
 
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Tarrou

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ETH has seen something in AWB and that’s why he is still here
I think there is a lot of potential there and he was brilliant in his 1st season
Nobody looked good playing in that team last season and even Varane looked rubbish
Hopefully ETH will be able to improve players and give them confidence
There is a good player in there that just needs to rebuild confidence
by all accounts he was on the transfer list

so the only reason he's still here is we didn't get a bid we deemed acceptable, or with enough time to get a replacement in
 

Ibi Dreams

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I don't necessarily think AWB can't be a useful player if he's coached well and responds well to it. But I have no hopes that he'll improve his ability on the ball, it's certainly too late for that imo. He will always be limited, but limited players can still have their uses

Dalot has far better ability on the ball and has seemed to respond to ETH well so far. He can't slide tackle like AWB, but I think he can do basically everything else and more.

Neither are perfect, but it's hard to see AWB beating Dalot in a Ten Hag team. It's funny and depressing that we spent 50m on a right back when we already had a better one we just didn't know how to use
 

afrocentricity

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I don't know where I was with this when I last posted here. I don't think AWB is a bad player, not at all. It's clear that going forward Dalot offers much more though. More importantly, he seems to be improving in defence too. Good for Dalot, but I'm sure AWB can go and be a success somewhere else, I don't see a way back for him here. Not based on what we've seen, or not seen so far......
 

saivet

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Mentioned it in Dalot's thread but we would have likely conceded or given up a fair few chances at the back post if AWB was playing. AWB is great defensively in 1vs1 situations but his overall defensive ability is ordinary. He doesn't read the game well, often out of position and shit in the air. People got carried away in thinking he's a good defensive full back and blinded by performances against wingers trying to take him on.

AWB can be a decent PL full back at a side that wants to sit deep but he has no business at United anymore, particularly under a manager like ETH.

On the positive side, I'd been more impressed than I thought I would be in Dalot. I had my doubts but he's improved many aspects of his game, particularly defensively. As ETH mentioned, we could do with a RB there to compete with him.
 

crossy1686

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Has AWB even had a single start under Ten Hag? Has the lad just completely given up? Same for Donny really, both just thrown the towel in on their careers at this level, this is why mentality is important.

Anyway, one clear winner from this debate.
 
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edgecutter

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As bad as Harry Maguire at 80 million has been, AWB has to go down as worse. Hardly played and cost 50 million. He’s been so bad that Palace only would offer a loan or a max 10 million to take him back.
 

MadDogg

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Mentioned it in Dalot's thread but we would have likely conceded or given up a fair few chances at the back post if AWB was playing. AWB is great defensively in 1vs1 situations but his overall defensive ability is ordinary. He doesn't read the game well, often out of position and shit in the air. People got carried away in thinking he's a good defensive full back and blinded by performances against wingers trying to take him on.

AWB can be a decent PL full back at a side that wants to sit deep but he has no business at United anymore, particularly under a manager like ETH.
Yep. I've mentioned it before, but it was becoming very noticeable that many opposition teams were deliberately changing the way they attacked down our right side. Instead of trying to beat the fullback 1v1 like they normally would (and that AWB is incredible at stopping), they were playing quick little triangles around him or moving the ball to the other side then swinging in crosses to the back post to get an attacker running in on AWB. AWB struggled to deal with the former, and was absolutely terrible at the latter.

It's why AWB started quite well here while opposition teams just attacked him like they would most other fullbacks, but he just slowly got worse and worse over time as more teams started adjusting to his abilities. By the end he rarely even got the chance to showcase his 1v1 abilities.
 

red woppit

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I don't necessarily think AWB can't be a useful player if he's coached well and responds well to it. But I have no hopes that he'll improve his ability on the ball, it's certainly too late for that imo. He will always be limited, but limited players can still have their uses

Dalot has far better ability on the ball and has seemed to respond to ETH well so far. He can't slide tackle like AWB, but I think he can do basically everything else and more.

Neither are perfect, but it's hard to see AWB beating Dalot in a Ten Hag team. It's funny and depressing that we spent 50m on a right back when we already had a better one we just didn't know how to use
I think you are right to believe that AWB can be useful in the squad, but I do believe that he can improve his technique, especially with his first touch. I would like to see him be given a few games, possibly League Cup, Europa Cup, and would hope to see an improvement in all areas.
When AWB and Maguire were purchased, yes for far too much money, Ole had to stop the ridiculous amount of goals being conceded, and they both contributed to that, which helped us gain a Champions League spot, and therefore recouping some of that outlay, and both were good, if not outstanding, members of a decent squad. Dalot was still very inexperienced, seemed a little awestruck when playing in the first team, although decent going forward, was very poor defensively, and didn't give me the impression that he could improve a great deal, but obviously he has been coached very well since Ten Hag arrived, and now, with him gaining more experience and confidence, he is looking very good.
If AWB does improve, and gets a few runouts, I could see us getting a decent fee for him in the summer, as I expect Laird to come back and press Dalot for the RB position.
 

Chief123

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Has AWB even had a single start under Ten Hag? Has the lad just completely given up? Same for Donny really, both just thrown the towel in on their careers at this level, this is why mentality is important.

Anyway, one clear winner from this debate.
He came on for last few minutes against Liverpool.
 

dinostar77

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I think AWB could become a really good right sided CB in a 3. Or even retrained intoa CB. The potential is there. I think if inwas him and utd wanted rid, id go to italy to specifically play as a no nonsense CB.
 

Lynty

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I like AWB, he's not great on the ball but overall he's provided some memorable perforamances and much more than anything Dalot had provided prior to this season.

But wow, Dalot has been top quality recently.
 

bosnian_red

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Kind of funny that AWB doesn't even exist for Ten Hag. Wonder if something happened behind the scenes as Ten Hag seems to at least give you a chance as part of the squad if you work hard in training like Elanga.
 

Terminator

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Kind of funny that AWB doesn't even exist for Ten Hag. Wonder if something happened behind the scenes as Ten Hag seems to at least give you a chance as part of the squad if you work hard in training like Elanga.
Hard to give AWB a chance when he's injured
 
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