Damage done by previous regime

[Desert Eagle]

You can blame Solskjaer for all you want and any other manager but you are missing point where blame should be.

It is easy to forget where we were when Solskjaer took over. It is easy to forget that we came 3rd and 2nd in his two full seasons. Ofcourse he needed to go for this season but it was definitly not his fault. Go back to how our players performed under Mourinho shortly before his sacking. Exaclty the same. Difference was that Mourinho is more straight forward and told exactly what he thought while Solskjaer is more like diplomat.

What you can blame Solskjaer for is not being tough on some players. Fines, suspensions, send people to teams under our senior team. We have players in our club that behave that they can do anything or nothing because of money, power and status. What you can blame the club is lot. Not having a structure on wages. Nobody in this club deserve £150 000 a week. Never mind £200 000 - 500 000. It is shocking. We don't have clear vision because our managers are underminded and there are changes everywhere. We don't have right people at right places and we have people in places nobody understand why and how.

So you can blame our managers but that should be bottom of the list.

Not having that sorry. It was obviously at least partly his fault as you say in the very next paragraph. Of course woodward and the glazers are to blame as well and even more than Ole and I've stated that in plenty of other threads.

And he got decent results for 2 seasons! When he stopped getting results, he got sacked.
It's like blaming Fergie for Moyes, because most if the side was Fergie's.
The coddled players had the highest number of comeback wins in a season - it wasn't a one off thing as well.
You brought up the point of xG, and since that was proven wrong, you're changing the goal posts again.
Look, Ole was rightfully sacked but to say that he is responsible for the mess 6 months after his departure is stupid

Yes Fergie is partly responsible for the Moyes mess. Firstly because he chose the idiot and secondly because our squad was weak , especially the midfield which hasn't been corrected a decade later. Come back wins, away games without defeat, two top fours are worth absolutely feck all. He won zero trophies and only had the minimum results required to keep his job. Plenty of people knew giving him a new contract was a huge mistake. I don't want to keep shitting on the guy cause he's gone now but I'm not having this reimagining of his time as anything even close to success. It was average cowardly trash and we are blessed that he's not our manager anymore.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

And he got decent results for 2 seasons! When he stopped getting results, he got sacked.
It's like blaming Fergie for Moyes, because most if the side was Fergie's.
The coddled players had the highest number of comeback wins in a season - it wasn't a one off thing as well.
You brought up the point of xG, and since that was proven wrong, you're changing the goal posts again.
Look, Ole was rightfully sacked but to say that he is responsible for the mess 6 months after his departure is stupid

I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that putting together a squad full of gutless, souless, pampered characters is the direct reason we are currently in the state were in.

Ralf in his first game tried to implement a system to move us away from tactics used by clubs like Wolves or Burnley and because the players had to work harder and actually had to fight for a place in the team they downed tools completely which from the off made Ralfs tenure an impossible environment to work in.

If Pep came in as manager we would maybe be left with 3 or 4 players after 2 or 3 transfer windows. How that isn't a direct indictment of the previous regime I just don't know. 3 wasted years because we were never going to go anywhere under Ole plus 400m to boot and were still going to need another 3 to 5 years to fix his mess is another.

Sometimes a win really can be a loss as demonstrated by the PSG game. Worst result since the day we were relegated.

 

[anant]

I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that putting together a squad full of gutless, souless, pampered characters is the direct reason we are currently in the state were in.

Ralf in his first game tried to implement a system to move us away from tactics used by clubs like Wolves or Burnley and because the players had to work harder and actually had to fight for a place in the team they downed tools completely which from the off made Ralfs tenure an impossible environment to work in.

If Pep came in as manager we would maybe be left with 3 or 4 players after 2 or 3 transfer windows. How that isn't a direct indictment of the previous regime I just don't know. 3 wasted years because we were never going to go anywhere under Ole plus 400m to boot and were still going to need another 3 to 5 years to fix his mess is another.

Sometimes a win really can be a loss as demonstrated by the PSG game. Worst result since the day we were relegated.

So, if I'm getting this correctly, a poorly assembled squad headed by a tactical noob, and supported by his friends managed to string together 2 consecutive top 4 finishes for the first time in the league since SAF, all while managing to score 100+ goals in the league, menatlly fragile players managing countless comeback wins all based on "vibes"?

If you do believe is the case, I'd say feck Poch/ETH. Just hire a sports psychologist or cheerleaders to massage egos - because apparantly that's what it takes to win games now

Yes Fergie is partly responsible for the Moyes mess. Firstly because he chose the idiot and secondly because our squad was weak , especially the midfield which hasn't been corrected a decade later. Come back wins, away games without defeat, two top fours are worth absolutely feck all. He won zero trophies and only had the minimum results required to keep his job. Plenty of people knew giving him a new contract was a huge mistake. I don't want to keep shitting on the guy cause he's gone now but I'm not having this reimagining of his time as anything even close to success. It was average cowardly trash and we are blessed that he's not our manager anymore.

You brought up xG stats, and you've awfully ignored your own point since it was pointed out that you were in the wrong there.

Look Ole had to be sacked but saying he was a tactical noob+had a poor side is senseless, because both of the 2 statements cant be right

 

[Reddevildans]

To me there's no one defining regime or season. It's a catalogue of mismanagement and errors, especially from decision makers like woodward, the glazers, arrogance of Ferguson appointing Moyes and Gill stepping aside when we needed him the most.

Then you have football management and recruitment. Appointing managers with stark philosophies and hence a mismatch of players on the pitch. Bang average players on huge contracts which we then cannot shift. It's all indicative of a football club run by baffoons. It still amazes me how such a huge football club has declined and dropped in standards in a decade.

We are now faced with city and Liverpool who are levels above us, especially with thier managers. Then the likes of Chelsea who will always remain comfortable in the top 4. Will we now be competing with clubs like Wolves, West ham and who knows Newcastle?

As long as pep and klopp remain managers I don't think anybody will win the league except City and Liverpool because they are the best around. We can only hope for a cup under a new manager. Last season Leicester won the fa cup, we should be doing our best to win the cups while improving in the league.

 

[wolvored]

So, if I'm getting this correctly, a poorly assembled squad headed by a tactical noob, and supported by his friends managed to string together 2 consecutive top 4 finishes for the first time in the league since SAF, all while managing to score 100+ goals in the league, menatlly fragile players managing countless comeback wins all based on "vibes"?

If you do believe is the case, I'd say feck Poch/ETH. Just hire a sports psychologist or cheerleaders to massage egos - because apparantly that's what it takes to win games now



You brought up xG stats, and you've awfully ignored your own point since it was pointed out that you were in the wrong there.

Look Ole had to be sacked but saying he was a tactical noob+had a poor side is senseless, because both of the 2 statements cant be right

I also think not having a crowd on their backs proved it is a mental thing that is a big hurdle for most of these players as well. Once the crowds returned was when we turned to shit.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

So, if I'm getting this correctly, a poorly assembled squad headed by a tactical noob, and supported by his friends managed to string together 2 consecutive top 4 finishes for the first time in the league since SAF, all while managing to score 100+ goals in the league, menatlly fragile players managing countless comeback wins all based on "vibes"?

If you do believe is the case, I'd say feck Poch/ETH. Just hire a sports psychologist or cheerleaders to massage egos - because apparantly that's what it takes to win

Fair play to you if you're willing to die on top of the 2 consecutive top 4 finishes hill but the cruel reality is it means nothing if a team doesn't kick on from there.

While it may be true final league position doesn't lie it certainly can be deceiving. Our first top 4 finish went right down to the wire on the last day against Leicester who were without most of their major players and we still struggled to comfortably win. A loss and we would of finished 5th. Very small margins don't equate to good management.

Our next top 4 finish came about in one of the strangest seasons ever. Between the pandemic, Chelsea being managed by Frank and Liverpool losing the spine of their team all of Oles stars more than aligned all the while still playing shit on a stick football.

As I said before. If a team can't keep improving year on year then previous league finishes mean nothing. Oles style of management was never going to be sustainable. He managed us for 168 games. I'm going to be generous and say in 10% of those games we played really well. 45% was between OK to meh and the other 45% horrible football. League positions or unbeaten away records mean absolutely nothing to me when you analyse the type of football we were playing. 3 years, 400m spent and he had us playing as a counter attacking side. Once he got the tools to change formation he was completely lost.

A team that keeps playing the same players no matter what their form is normally a happy squad because they don't have to be held accountable even if the football is an eyesore to watch. Pull them out of their comfort zone as Ralf had to do then we can see the players for what they really are. Gutless, petulant and utterly devoid of any sense of passion which is where it all went wrong for Ralf because he had the audacity to make them fight for their place.

Ralf certainly isn't the answer but I'd bet large sums of money if Ralf was given 3 years and 400m to spend we'd be seeing a team far more advanced than the shit show Ole left us with.

 

[anant]

Fair play to you if you're willing to die on top of the 2 consecutive top 4 finishes hill but the cruel reality is it means nothing if a team doesn't kick on from there.

While it may be true final league position doesn't lie it certainly can be deceiving. Our first top 4 finish went right down to the wire on the last day against Leicester who were without most of their major players and we still struggled to comfortably win. A loss and we would of finished 5th. Very small margins don't equate to good management.

Our next top 4 finish came about in one of the strangest seasons ever. Between the pandemic, Chelsea being managed by Frank and Liverpool losing the spine of their team all of Oles stars more than aligned all the while still playing shit on a stick football.

As I said before. If a team can't keep improving year on year then previous league finishes mean nothing. Oles style of management was never going to be sustainable. He managed us for 168 games. I'm going to be generous and say in 10% of those games we played really well. 45% was between OK to meh and the other 45% horrible football. League positions or unbeaten away records mean absolutely nothing to me when you analyse the type of football we were playing. 3 years, 400m spent and he had us playing as a counter attacking side. Once he got the tools to change formation he was completely lost.

A team that keeps playing the same players no matter what their form is normally a happy squad because they don't have to be held accountable even if the football is an eyesore to watch. Pull them out of their comfort zone as Ralf had to do then we can see the players for what they really are. Gutless, petulant and utterly devoid of any sense of passion which is where it all went wrong for Ralf because he had the audacity to make them fight for their place.

Ralf certainly isn't the answer but I'd bet large sums of money if Ralf was given 3 years and 400m to spend we'd be seeing a team far more advanced than the shit show Ole left us with.

I get your point. But the thing is, net spend wise, he spent less than Mou. If we're looking at spend/season, his spend was less than LVG as well.

Now, I'm not saying Ole did some fantastic signings, but my point is the things people blame Ole for are contradictory.

Like in your post above, you're saying, Ole kept playing players who were out of form. And despite that, the team was finishing in top 4.

Also, if we're using the injury excuse for Pool, which is quite valid, why aren't we using the same for us in 19/20? I think we had a lot of injuries that season as well. The point is, the comparisons are quite biased against Ole. In both the seasons, 2 of the only 3 seasons btw, did our NPxGD put us in top 4. If that's not progress, then I'm not sure what is. Everything blew up this season, but then he got sacked as well! If people think his tenure put us behind by 3/5/10 years like people have been saying, then all you're doing is having excuses ready for the next manager.

People praise Arteta for getting top 4 (or they will, if he gets top 4) because he finished above expectations. Yet, we don't do the same for Ole - who finished 2nd - and no one in their wildest dreams thought that would happen. Isn't it the same for us as well?

 

[Forevergiggs1]

I get your point. But the thing is, net spend wise, he spent less than Mou. If we're looking at spend/season, his spend was less than LVG as well.

Now, I'm not saying Ole did some fantastic signings, but my point is the things people blame Ole for are contradictory.

Like in your post above, you're saying, Ole kept playing players who were out of form. And despite that, the team was finishing in top 4.

Also, if we're using the injury excuse for Pool, which is quite valid, why aren't we using the same for us in 19/20? I think we had a lot of injuries that season as well. The point is, the comparisons are quite biased against Ole. In both the seasons, 2 of the only 3 seasons btw, did our NPxGD put us in top 4. If that's not progress, then I'm not sure what is. Everything blew up this season, but then he got sacked as well! If people think his tenure put us behind by 3/5/10 years like people have been saying, then all you're doing is having excuses ready for the next manager.

People praise Arteta for getting top 4 (or they will, if he gets top 4) because he finished above expectations. Yet, we don't do the same for Ole - who finished 2nd - and no one in their wildest dreams thought that would happen. Isn't it the same for us as well?

I can see where you are coming from but as I said before top 4 finishes means absolutely nothing to me if I don't see any significant change in form. From my point of view I couldn't see much difference from when Ole started his first full season with us until he was sacked which is why I made the comment on it not being sustainable in any shape or form. Everything was too predictable which is why we struggled to break down low block teams once they sussed on to our way of playing or how the top 6 clubs clued up to us and we couldn't buy a win in his second full season.

I think the difference with Arteta is he took over a joke of a team, did what had to be done like getting rid of players no matter what their status at the club, decided on a style and has stuck with it and even if I don't like admitting it I can see a marked difference in the team. Something that I never felt with Ole. Of course it could go badly wrong for him but at the minute he's getting the benefit of the doubt.

When after 3 years the blueprint has to be completely ripped up and started again I think we can safely say it wasn't a success. I don't have any problem with people thinking Ole must of been a master magician for getting 2 top 4 positions with this squad but in my mind he left a completely broken squad which is why I think it's unfair slating Ralf because the players don't buy into his philosophy.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Fair play to you if you're willing to die on top of the 2 consecutive top 4 finishes hill but the cruel reality is it means nothing if a team doesn't kick on from there.

While it may be true final league position doesn't lie it certainly can be deceiving. Our first top 4 finish went right down to the wire on the last day against Leicester who were without most of their major players and we still struggled to comfortably win. A loss and we would of finished 5th. Very small margins don't equate to good management.

Our next top 4 finish came about in one of the strangest seasons ever. Between the pandemic, Chelsea being managed by Frank and Liverpool losing the spine of their team all of Oles stars more than aligned all the while still playing shit on a stick football.

As I said before. If a team can't keep improving year on year then previous league finishes mean nothing. Oles style of management was never going to be sustainable. He managed us for 168 games. I'm going to be generous and say in 10% of those games we played really well. 45% was between OK to meh and the other 45% horrible football. League positions or unbeaten away records mean absolutely nothing to me when you analyse the type of football we were playing. 3 years, 400m spent and he had us playing as a counter attacking side. Once he got the tools to change formation he was completely lost.

A team that keeps playing the same players no matter what their form is normally a happy squad because they don't have to be held accountable even if the football is an eyesore to watch. Pull them out of their comfort zone as Ralf had to do then we can see the players for what they really are. Gutless, petulant and utterly devoid of any sense of passion which is where it all went wrong for Ralf because he had the audacity to make them fight for their place.

Ralf certainly isn't the answer but I'd bet large sums of money if Ralf was given 3 years and 400m to spend we'd be seeing a team far more advanced than the shit show Ole left us with.

Yup.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And he got decent results for 2 seasons! When he stopped getting results, he got sacked.

Did he feck? In his first full season he managed 66 points, which interestingly enough is the same points per game as Ralf is managing now. In his third full season after his 12 PL games, he had 17 points, putting him on course for fecking mid 50's for points.

He had one anomaly season when away grounds were empty and managed a points total of 74. Since his first full season he managed 1.69 points per game, Ralf has 1.76. If we add in Ole's caretaker spell he manages 1.80 points per game in PL. That's 0.4 better than Ralf, a guy who hasn't had a pre season with the team, came in mid-season to a team that had been absolutely humiliated for weeks by Leicester, Liverpool, City and Watford, and who hasn't bought a single player.

"Decent results", fecking hell, some of you will die on this hill

And yes, of course you blame the manager 6 months on for the mess if it's still the same fecking season man.

 

[anant]

Did he feck? In his first full season he managed 66 points, which interestingly enough is the same points per game as Ralf is managing now. In his third full season after his 12 PL games, he had 17 points, putting him on course for fecking mid 50's for points.

He had one anomaly season when away grounds were empty and managed a points total of 74. Since his first full season he managed 1.69 points per game, Ralf has 1.76. If we add in Ole's caretaker spell he manages 1.80 points per game in PL. That's 0.4 better than Ralf, a guy who hasn't had a pre season with the team, came in mid-season to a team that had been absolutely humiliated for weeks by Leicester, Liverpool, City and Watford, and who hasn't bought a single player.

"Decent results", fecking hell, some of you will die on this hill

And yes, of course you blame the manager 6 months on for the mess if it's still the same fecking season man.

Simple question - when did you stop supporting Mou, and do you hope that he stayed longer?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Simple question - when did you stop supporting Mou, and do you hope that he stayed longer?

Final season, understood his frustrations somewhat at the club putting the brakes on him changing the squad, but thought he acted like a petulant fecking moron, which isn't the way to go about things, especially as our fan base would've backed him if he'd simply talked about the ownership. Absolutely thought he needed to be sacked in the last few months due to that attitude.

Was hard to argue with two cups, followed by an 81 point season. Was significant improvement there from Moyes and LVG before him.

 

[Acheron]

It is easy to forget that we came 3rd and 2nd in his two full seasons.

Some of you keep repeating that he finished 2nd but I always thought the team was underwhelming and stagnated at best, the points total were pretty low, didn't do any better than Mourinho and the team was being embarrassed out of the Champions League. Both sets of fans need to move on from him, he was a trash manager and probably set back the club because of how much time and resources but he's gone now so there's no need to pretend he did a good job or try to bring down Ragnick or players like Ronaldo in order to appear him look good. The team was playing just as bad long before the current season.

 

[90 + 5min]

Some of you keep repeating that he finished 2nd but I always thought the team was underwhelming and stagnated at best, the points total were pretty low, didn't do any better than Mourinho and the team was being embarrassed out of the Champions League. Both sets of fans need to move on from him, he was a trash manager and probably set back the club because of how much time and resources but he's gone now so there's no need to pretend he did a good job or try to bring down Ragnick or players like Ronaldo in order to appear him look good. The team was playing just as bad long before the current season.

People think that saying Solskjaer did good job would mean to have a go at Rangnick. It is so far from the truth you can come. I stand by Rangnick to 100% as I stood behind Solskjaer. I did the same with other managers we had, expect maybe Moyes. I will stand by any manager I believe is good for the club because they are not the problem. I know how football works and when you don't have results you need to go because it it easier to sack one guy and not 15 players regardless where problem lies.

 

[Acheron]

People think that saying Solskjaer did good job would mean to have a go at Rangnick. It is so far from the truth you can come. I stand by Rangnick to 100% as I stood behind Solskjaer. I did the same with other managers we had, expect maybe Moyes.

Then fair play, although a series of managers doing so bad points that the people above them are just as responsible.

 

[lex talionis]

Yes, we did finish second last season under Ole, but it should not be forgotten that Liverpool and Chelsea had really poor seasons last year. That fact doesn't erase the fact that Ole had us finishing under second, but even Stevie Wonder could see that we were playing hideous football even if we ground out enough results to finish second. And even Ray Charles could see that we were in freefall under Ole this season.

There is no serious reconsideration of whether we were right to sack Ole. What is debatable is whether we should have gone in for Conte or did exactly as did in bringing in an interim manager. I was on board with Conte but I did not object then nor object now to Rangnick as interim manager.

The moment Watford thrashed us -- under Ole, in case Ole's apologists have forgotten -- our season was shot. We were never going to win the CL, the FA and Caribao Cups are jokes, and our World Cup winning midfield had already made it clear he wanted out of the club, so we were in terminal velocity shambles once Watford got through with us. I thought we had it us to hang onto fourth place but even that was a bridge too far for this godforsaken squad of spoiled pre-Madonnas (a term I'm borrowing from another poster about a month or two ago) who can''t be bothered to put in a proper shift.

 

[Ayoba]

This is on Woodward. I've never witnessed such an inept person in a leadership position. He had the chance to fix this after mourinho, when he stated that we would look to have an interim, taking our time to appoint the right manager and build the right structure at the club. Instead, he jumped the gun and hired Ole. The rest is history...now we're paying the price massively for his ineptitude.

 

[Foxbatt]

I have never regretted United winning a match. But I regret now for winning that PSG game.