Not quite Ron Atkinson post-United sacking career level, but doing better than most of the others.
David Moyes West Ham Manager (Again) | European Champion
- Thread starter Damien
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Happy for him. Good enough or not for United the club nobbled him that summer. Gave him no chance and his rep took a huge and unfair hit. He's grinded his way back and you have to appreciate that in a guy.
At his 73rd attempt aged 60 years young. If at first you don't succeed try try again..
not sure even at Everton he had a midfield that screams David Moyes as much as Alvarez Soucek JWP
That’s massively underplaying his ability. Both Everton and West Ham were perennial relegation candidates when he took charge of them and he made both of them into top 6 sides. I don’t like his style of play and he’s not right for the top clubs as a result but he’s a top class manager.
Moyes should really get a chance of coaching a top club, but is suffering from the same thing as Mourinho, which is that his stint at United has damaged his reputation beyond repair.
I would argue that only now he is being seen in the same light as he was before he took over United, a bit more than 10 years ago now.
ETH will have the same problem once his time at the club comes to an end. Or maybe everyone ultimately realizes that it isn't the managers, but I would not hold my breath.
I would argue that only now he is being seen in the same light as he was before he took over United, a bit more than 10 years ago now.
ETH will have the same problem once his time at the club comes to an end. Or maybe everyone ultimately realizes that it isn't the managers, but I would not hold my breath.
The Chosen One. And all these years later, he'd make the most sense as a returnee. He can add that to his resume I guess: "would make most sense as returnee to the crime scene."
As daft as it would make us look it would be the best way for a base to be laid. He would build a good team even if he gets so old that he’s not in a position to see the full fruits of his labours. I’ve always felt if we had just given him a couple of seasons we would have ended up in a much better position than becoming just another hire and fire big club.
It wouldn't be a great argument.
Congratulations Dave, massive achievement for him to achieve this achievement in his 3rd (uno, dos, tres) decade of management in the Premier League as a manager.
Which means he isn't a Top Class manager.
His disastrous stints at Sociedad and Sunderland didn't help either to be fair.
He should not, because he is not a top manager. He is a good one, that feels at home at clubs that are underperforming, but have the potential to fight for Europa league places. He needs a team full of physical players that are hard to beat, but most are not good enough for top clubs. That is David Moyes himself as well.
He would never fight for big titles at a top club, as he can only do one thing, that would be what he has done at Everton and is doing now ta West Ham. He would mould the team the same way and a top team would Fight for top 4 at best and some mickey mouse cups. He hasnt got another level or two in him, he is too limited in his approach and needs a very specific setup.
I was surprised to find out that a lot of Hammers fans don't love him because of his low intensity tactics. Their stadium struggles to get in full voice because they don't really press and fly into tackles, just back off and keep their shape and make the other team try to play through them.
Prior to last season (36 points) our lowest ever points total in the league came under Moyes.
Also since West Ham got promoted from the Championship c. 10 years ago, their two lowest league positions have been under Moyes (one of them when he took over mid season). They've been a fairly mid table side.
He has a good high ceiling with mid table clubs but he's also capable of having a really low one too. What he does offer though is consistency usually for these type of clubs and after 2 or 3 years you can kind of guarantee that you'll have a side that will be finishing top 10 most seasons or fighting for those top 7 or 8 spots. That's a solid/good manager for me, but he has shown that he has a mental block/cap to his ability.
He only won his first trophy last year after c. 25 years of management and his away record against top clubs is a absolutely shocking. A top class manager doesn't really suffer from those two things.
the nature of the job is that you always get sacked in the end, but he's simply a very good manager and squad builder. that's the simple truth, whether the fans like his football or not. for the clubs that are really going nowhere, he's perfect.
great postYeah.
So, I cannot open Wikipedia for some reason so please help me out, what did Ancelotti win with Everton?
Don't disagree with the trophy thing, or indeed about the obvious cap to his capabilities, but I think you've been a bit harsh.
That lowest points total was in his second full season (and Everton had finished 16th the year before he took over, and 15th the year he did with only a handful of games left) and he didn't finish lower than 11th after that, and even managed a top four finish one year, as well as a run of three or four seasons inside the top six.
I think it's also a bit harsh to point at the West Ham finishes considering one was him taking over mid-season and the other was a season in which they won a European trophy.
Having just googled, Everton were actually 6 points clear of the drop with the "lowest" points total, but in 97/98 had just a point more and survived on goal difference.
He's a manager very happy and very capable managing an "underdog" but (and I've said this in other threads) there's little separating Moyes at Everton, or even now at West Ham, from the flavour of the month managers of other mid-table clubs that repeatedly get brought up as potential United managers.
Not sure what your point is here. I think people can clearly see the difference between 4x CL winner Ancelotti and David Moyes.
My point regarding those low finishes with WH and Everton was that he does have the potential to dip at times and it was more in response that we were both perennial relegation candidates. That could be more said for us but not West Ham during the time he took them over (they were a comfortable mid table side).
I think for Everton he was a great manager but in regards of overall management ability he'd be in the solid/good realm, certainly not top class due to his poor trophy cabinet and a quite frankly hideous record against the top teams.
And I think it's a bit harsh to refer to them as "dips".
The Everton dip happened in his second full season. If he hadn't overachieved with a top half finish in his first, it'd have basically been par for the course.
The West Ham ones were him taking over mid-season, and a season in which they finished 14th and won a European trophy.
I agree he's not a top manager, but, based on results, he's definitely Everton's best manager of the Premier League era, and has to be in with a shout of being West Ham's too.
Everton were perennial relegation candidates when he took over, and West Ham were in danger of the drop both times he joined them mid-season, even if they weren't usually involved in those battles.
Ten Hag take note!!
I think you were right @Alex99 when you said there's nothing separating him from the flavour of the month managers that quite a lot of posters here are clamouring to be our next managers. Different style of football maybe, but all these managers have dips and then suddenly they are written off again.
I don't think it is. He went from 15th to 7th to 17th to 4th to 11th before then getting us consistently top 8 finishes in the league. Even last season, their league campaign (WH) was truly horrific. He was teetering on the edge of being sacked most weeks and it was basically the ECL campaign that kept him in a job.
He takes a bit of time to get up to speed with a club - I wouldn't be surprised now for example if West Ham became consistent top 10 finishers but I think in the first 3 seasons or so you'll have a team that has highs and lows before finding a consistent level that he's able to maintain which is fine, and what most mid table clubs in the league want from a manager but they need a better manager to make that next step up.
Despite the flaws though, he would be on the top list of candidates for me at any club outside of the big PL ones though.
Apologies for the jumbled post, remembering things and then editing.
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What would he have won in 25-26 attempts in cup competitions if he'd been there for 12 years?
True but let's not forget it was Everton. He didn't turn Luton or Burnley into a top 10 PL side.
Everton are and were one of the biggest clubs in the country. During his time there he was working with the 6th-9th biggest wage bill in the league. And that's roundabout where they regularly finished. He did a solid job at Everton over a long period. But he wasn't performing miracles or anything.
WHU were in top half form in the second half of last season; the lowly 14th was due to a really bad first half of the season where loads of new players arrived, several key players were injured and there was a hangover from losing the Europa League semi final the season before against Eintracht Frankfurt.
The signing of Scamacca up front didn't work at all. He simply didn't offer the endeavour and movement that we get from Bowen now and have previously had with Antonio or Arnautovic under Moyes.
Kudus is also significantly better than the unfortunate Cornet, and the unsuitable Benrahma who lacks quality on anything like a consistent basis and against good teams.
Moyes is in with a fighting chance of getting West Ham into the Champions League if it goes to 5th this year.
The signing of Scamacca up front didn't work at all. He simply didn't offer the endeavour and movement that we get from Bowen now and have previously had with Antonio or Arnautovic under Moyes.
Kudus is also significantly better than the unfortunate Cornet, and the unsuitable Benrahma who lacks quality on anything like a consistent basis and against good teams.
Moyes is in with a fighting chance of getting West Ham into the Champions League if it goes to 5th this year.
You had 26 points in 21 games from January onwards. That's mid table form.
There were also rumours most weeks of him being sacked throughout last season. He's done very well this season though.
My point is that people on this board have a weird tendency to judge managers on trophies without taking into account the strength of the sides they had at their disposal. And also to glorify progressive brands of football that are being played by hardly anyone and that fall apart without top players in each position(think Pep's first season or Liverpool without VVD).
This is why there is always a silence when there are discussions on who United's next manager should be. It is because apart from Pep and Klopp and maybe De Zerbi or Xabi Alonso, everyone is either crap or past it according to Redcafe.
I mean it’s you that suggested United have had one academy success in the past 30 years isn’t it? And that were should let that part of the club heritage go?
They called him ‘Dithering Dave’ but if you give him time he can make things happen. Signings have been good at West Ham. First transfer window was a disaster alongside a clueless Woodward but an alternative history where he doesn’t get sacked and there’s a good chance we sign a young Toni Kroos and arguably the club is in better shape.
I never said Moyes was crap though. I said the difference between good and top managers is trophies, aswell as other factors.
Martinez for example won a trophy with Wigan and achieved a higher points total with Everton than Moyes did but I don't think he's a better manager than Moyes. As always it comes down to context. His record in cup.competitions with us isn't that good.
4 full seasons and he breaks Wenger's record for games managed in the PL
Is his contract with West Ham up this summer?
Is his contract with West Ham up this summer?
Yes.
It will probably get renewed for another couple of years. He seemed confident last night.
He's been back for four years, and previously did 6/7 months when Bilic was dismissed. The club should never have let him go the first time but they wasted 18 months on Pellegrini who was never a good fit with West Ham's then-ownership and budget.
People comparing Moyes to some of the best managers ever like Carlo. Moyes is an elite manager, that's for sure. Otherwise he wouldn't had the career he had at top clubs.
Yes, he probably isn't talented enough to become a Champions League wining manager, but football needs managers like him too, who are extremely competent at their job and making clubs with less financial capacity to make more steady seasons.
Top managers are extremely rare, that's why Mourinho is still seen as one of the top managers despite having passed his prime long ago, simply because there aren't much managers with the skillset and pratical results to be considered one yet.
Yes, he probably isn't talented enough to become a Champions League wining manager, but football needs managers like him too, who are extremely competent at their job and making clubs with less financial capacity to make more steady seasons.
Top managers are extremely rare, that's why Mourinho is still seen as one of the top managers despite having passed his prime long ago, simply because there aren't much managers with the skillset and pratical results to be considered one yet.
Never.
I just said that the recent track record of the academy is abysmal and that people should not get their hopes up.
What do you think would happen if Mourinho was put in charge of this City side ? Same players, same funds ? And be safe from the sack in the first year regardless of results , as Pep was.
Or even a Champions League qualifying manager.
You said this…
Which is totally untrue of course.
And totally ignores the ethos of the club dating back to the Babes.
Pipedream in your view though.
I don't think he would won the title anytime soon tbh. I don't see his teams getting consistency in making a good average of points per game. Could win the league if the champion needed less than 85 points to win the league, which is rare to happen lately.
He would probably qualify for UCL, and would probably challenge a win on the UCL, his teams are still very tough on knock-out games.