Decision to not bring in Dean Henderson

[charlenefan]

The only time I've ever seen a keeper subbed on for a penalty shootout was with Krul under LVG for Holland. It's a batshit crazy thing to do

 

[bosnian_red]

It's likely De Gea's final appearance here. You just don't do that.

 

[Dominos]

If we'd have brought Henderson on and lost, the inquisition would instead be asking why we didn't keep de Gea on.

The answer to that question would be simple - De Gea doesn't save pens and the statistics prove it. All you ask if your manager makes logical decisions, if we'd have lost with Henderson it still would have been the logical decision.

 

[BlueHaze]

The fact we even have to discuss tactically bringing in Henderson to win on pens against Villareal in a final says everything about the management. Should have won this comfortably but oh well...

 

[Dan_F]

The fact we even have to discuss tactically bringing in Henderson to win on pens against Villareal in a final says everything about the management. Should have won this comfortably but oh well...

This. I have far bigger concerns than one off decisions about whether it should have been Rashford rather than Greenwood, or Henderson coming on.

 

[JB7]

He was bringing on other penalty takers.

The bigger problem is why the feck we can't defend set-pieces, why the feck he doesn't make subs to impact the actual game and why the feck we were forced to a penalty shoot-out at all.

If the goalkeeper literally stays in his starting position as their free kick is taken he simply catches the ball and no defending is required.

 

[Dominos]

It's likely De Gea's final appearance here. You just don't do that.

That's all the more reason to change him surely?

The only reason not to do it was you don't want to dent De Gea's confidence for future games. But if he's not going to be at the club then why would we care? It's also the last game of the season so he'd have the whole summer to get over it.

 

[Oranges038]

De Gea is the worst penalty keeper ever.

6.5 years. Since saved a pen.

Like scoring in an open goal.

Shootouts are 50/50, personally I would have put Henderson on when the shootout looked likely.

This though is just plain wrong.

He has saved more for Utd than Schmeichel did (1).

Has saved more for Utd that Schmeichel did in his entire career (3).

 

[Dirty Schwein]

If we'd have brought Henderson on and lost, the inquisition would instead be asking why we didn't keep de Gea on.

No it wouldn't. DDG hasn't saved a penalty for as far as I can remember. Henderson has saved plenty. If that didn't work then the inquisition would have gone back to why we can't defend set pieces and why subs were made so late... And rightly so.

 

[0le]

I think he should have got Henderson on. Pogba could have taken a penalty.

 

[Welbeckham]

He should’ve started him in the first place.

 

[spiriticon]

There will never be an inquisition to ask why David de Gea should stay on in a pen shootout.

He hasn't saved a penalty in a 100 years!

 

[mu4c_20le]

No it wouldn't. DDG hasn't saved a penalty for as far as I can remember. Henderson has saved plenty. If that didn't work then the inquisition would have gone back to why we can't defend set pieces and why subs were made so late... And rightly so.

Mate he saved one penalty for us.... and one for Sheffield

 

[Mickeza]

It’s a massive middle finger to De Gea. No chance he was going to do it. Ole trusts his players - that’s his management style.

 

[croadyman]

Penalties are lotteries. No guarantee Hendo would save one.

where ole failed again was his game management. Lack of subs when required to then make really odd ones too late, leaving Rashford on who was horrific yet again.

we lost it in the second half -well on top but needed fresh legs, failed to act. A safe manager wins nothing.

Yeah also reminded me a bit of England in that World Cup semi final with how we lost our way in the game

 

[McTerminator]

If we'd have brought Henderson on and lost, the inquisition would instead be asking why we didn't keep de Gea on.

it really wouldn’t though.

DDG is notoriously bad at them, both saving and taking, so nobody in their right mind would question that decision had it been made.

 

[stw2022]

Fairly low down on the list of shit decisions. I’m not sure if sitting on his hands during 90 minutes to save a sub to bring a keeper on wouldn’t have pissed me off me to be honest

 

[FahadiHossein]

The answer to that question would be simple - De Gea doesn't save pens and the statistics prove it. All you ask if your manager makes logical decisions, if we'd have lost with Henderson it still would have been the logical decision.

Remember everyone was shitting on Henderson after we had lost to the scums, calling him to be sold to Sheffield United?

On hindsight, it is easy to say that Henderson would have saved us, but we won't know.

And LvG was crazy to do that. He didn't care about Cilessen since it was the World Cup and he was gone soon after, but how damaging it would be between DDG and OGS if he had done that. Imagine your boss telling you that you are not going to the final presentation because of this and that though you have worked hardly preparing for the finals.

 

[always_hoping]

Has Hendo a decent record for saving penalties? Has he ever taken one? The best chance United ever had in that penalty shootout was hoping one of the Villarreal players would blaze one of them wide. I think for that to happen to need a lucky manager in charge and Ole sadly isn't lucky.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

He should’ve started him in the first place.

What would have been different in 120 minutes had Henderson started?

 

[mu4c_20le]

it really wouldn’t though.

DDG is notoriously bad at them, both saving and taking, so nobody in their right mind would question that decision had it been made.

And what about young Henderson? How is that fair on him to take the brunt of the responsibility in such a big occasion. Bizarre decision that only bizarre people could ever make

 

[VP89]

If we'd have brought Henderson on and lost, the inquisition would instead be asking why we didn't keep de Gea on.

You have a point, but it would be a weaker inquisition considering DDGs last penalty save was in 2016 and Henderson has saved 6 since.

Not that it matters. We should have won in regular time. My question is pointed more toward ponderous and safe ball recycling among the back four.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

He means the team as a whole went second to be fair. I almost took the bait too.

interesting. Bruno decided that we take the pens second? That’s a very strange decision I have to say.

 

[JB7]

What would have been different in 120 minutes had Henderson started?

We wouldn’t have conceded the goal we did.

 

[Abraxas]

I am not entirely sure the argument that if he had changed it and it didn't work it would have left him open to criticism holds any water at all.

He's open for criticism in every decision or non-decision he makes. Nothing is simply accepted anymore.

I think he will regret this one in the cold light of day. If you strip it down to bare facts, we have one keeper that has struggled in this situation, which actually argues for the idea he shouldn't have been opening himself to criticism by making the decision anyway, as the counter argument is to simply point to that fact. The other one is Henderson has saved penalities recently and does have a more imposing presence, and as we know, penalties are both technical and mental.

I am going to presume the thought crossed his mind and he felt it was better to go with a keeper somewhat alert to the game, or he had a gut feeling for DeGea, or he didn't think it was the right thing to do to hook a keeper. I'm not sure which but I wonder if he may regret this line of thinking now.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Shootouts are 50/50, personally I would have put Henderson on when the shootout looked likely.

This though is just plain wrong.

He has saved more for Utd than Schmeichel did (1).

Has saved more for Utd that Schmeichel did in his entire career (3).

Oh, I guess that makes it right then.

Nevermind great choice from Ole, Schemeichel saved less pens makes sense.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I don’t think it’s about fear but loyalty and respect, which are big contributors to good camaraderie and a positive environment. Ole has been widely praised as a good man manager, and it’s the thing that he most valued in Sir Alex.

We have two keepers at a similar level. They were told that the one that earns his place in the first team will play the league games, but the backup won’t be pushed to the side, they are too good for that, so they will play the cup games. All of them. If he were to disregard that commitment in the moment, it would be disrespectful to the individual, having lasting effects on their morale, but it would also send a bad signal to the rest of the squad. They wouldn’t trust him.

I don’t think Ole is a good manager but he has the trust of his players. If he threw that away he would be putting short term gain ahead of long term pain. Strategically it doesn’t make sense. It just isn’t as simple as this one moment. That’s why keepers generally aren’t pulled out at the last moment. It would be damaging in the long term.

Ferguson is also a manager that dropped Jim Leighton for the FA Cup replay for Les Sealey knowing full well that it would likely destroy his career.

 

[MU655]

Mate he saved one penalty for us.... and one for Sheffield

He has saved 6 since the De Gea last saved one, which was in 2016. Henderson didn't even start playing regularly until 16/17.

 

[slyadams]

The only time I've ever seen a keeper subbed on for a penalty shootout was with Krul under LVG for Holland. It's a batshit crazy thing to do

But why is it though? Take a step back and consider, we have no problems giving players the hook to put penalty takers on in the last few minutes. You're saying "player X is a better penalty taker than you". That player will be involved in a single penalty (baring and crazy situation where the entire team has taken one), but the keeper who could be involved in 5, 6 7 etc. penalties isn't subjected to the same scrutiny?

I don't think a keeper needs to be up to game speed to take part in a shoot out, the only explanation is that it would look worse for a keeper and dent their confidence. But when there's a trophy to be won the manager can show some balls, and DDG is a player in the twilight of his career. If he's going to throw his toys out because Ole plays the numbers game in a penalty shoot with a European trophy on the line then its time for him to move on.

The reason we don't see this more is likely because the penalty stats between keepers likely favours the first choice keeper, so the decision is moot.

 

[Welbeckham]

What would have been different in 120 minutes had Henderson started?

We’re never gonna win any decisive cup game with De Gea in goal. He will always be soft when it counts.

 

[mu4c_20le]

He has saved 6 since the De Gea last saved one, which was in 2016. Henderson didn't even start playing regularly until 16/17.

Two of those in a youth tournament two in the lower leagues. I'm only counting top competitions.

 

[redshaw]

Statically keepers will save a few. Sadly De Gea doesn't so I can understand why changing keepers rarely happens. I would've subbed De Gea for the shootout though as I watched all the pens fly past him over the years.

I was desperately hoping after all those years of not saving one tonight he could save at least one, even stand still for some and gamble to get a save but no all 11 past him and even dives past a couple. For a tall lad he's so poor at pens.

With Romero in net we win this. He's better than both yet is frozen out.

The utter ridiculousness of the highest paid keeper in the world who can't save a pen.

 

[sullydnl]

If the goalkeeper literally stays in his starting position as their free kick is taken he simply catches the ball and no defending is required.

Yeah, no. That's not how set-pieces work. You don't just point to where the ball ended up and say "he should have been there the whole time", as if positioning isn't a dynamic thing.

 

[Born2Lose]

That was a nail in the coffin performance for De Gea.

The only problem now is it'll be harder to shift him.

 

[charlenefan]

But why is it though? Take a step back and consider, we have no problems giving players the hook to put penalty takers on in the last few minutes.

Thats completely different though, you think AWB would have wanted to take a penalty? You're taking off a non attacking player for an attacking player to put the ball in the back of the net. When you switch one keeper for another in a penalty shootout it's because you think one keeper is better at being a keeper than the other

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

But why is it though? Take a step back and consider, we have no problems giving players the hook to put penalty takers on in the last few minutes. You're saying "player X is a better penalty taker than you". That player will be involved in a single penalty (baring and crazy situation where the entire team has taken one), but the keeper who could be involved in 5, 6 7 etc. penalties isn't subjected to the same scrutiny?

I don't think a keeper needs to be up to game speed to take part in a shoot out, the only explanation is that it would look worse for a keeper and dent their confidence. But when there's a trophy to be won the manager can show some balls, and DDG is a player in the twilight of his career. If he's going to throw his toys out because Ole plays the numbers game in a penalty shoot with a European trophy on the line then its time for him to move on.

The reason we don't see this more is likely because the penalty stats between keepers likely favours the first choice keeper, so the decision is moot.

This is sort of what my point was with this thread. Its such a huge football club in a final and so you would think that decisions would be more about whatever is in the best interests of the team winning rather than best for the player. Overall Ole not making subs for 100 minutes is similar to this because it is obvious to me that most of our first 11 was exhausted and at that time even though the players on the bench might not be great but surely they were more likley to impact the game more than our first 11

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

We wouldn’t have conceded the goal we did.

The ball was landing a good 10 yards from the goal, Henderson was not coming out to get that.

We’re never gonna win any decisive cup game with De Gea in goal. He will always be soft when it counts.

We couldn’t get the better of a bang average side in 120 minutes of football before the shootout. I agree he’s past his best but this isn’t on him.

 

[Jeppers7]

If we'd have brought Henderson on and lost, the inquisition would instead be asking why we didn't keep de Gea on.

It wouldn’t. His penalty record is tragic.

 

[Infestissumam]

De Gea has now conceded 40 straight. How people can know this and still say "penalties are 50/50" with a straight face is beyond me.

 

[stevoc]

The mistake was not to start Henderson.

This flip flopping with GK's doesn't reflect well on Ole.

De Gea's a coward who's coasted his whole career on being a top level shot stopper but hasn't devoted any time or attention to the other fundamentals of being a GK.

By flip flopping you mean playing one keeper in the league and the other in the cups?

Ferguson, Mourinho and a lot of top coaches do that very thing.

We won this competition 4 years ago with the reserve keeper playing almost every game on the way to doing it.