Decision to not bring in Dean Henderson

[Interval]

Thing is I don't think that's something you can make on the fly... You have Hendo practice pens solidly for days before the final and let both of them know what the drill is.

This. And it could've been a legit plan and should've been a legit plan. Surely you don't enter a final not having done your homework on penalties? Maybe DDG did prepare for it but didnt look like saving even one. Though most were impeccably placed

 

[r0663664]

It is so bloody simple. Just get Mata, Rashford, Bruno and the whole lot to take turn at penalties. See which keeper save the most. That will be the keeper for the shoot out. No emotion, no justification needed. It isn't really that hard, if Dean save more than De Gea, then he can play hero for the day. It all boils down to Ole managing this team, he has no guts to sub players who underperformed. When has he ever sub player for performance? It is always due to injury and tiredness. Tuchel and Jose can pull players off if they don't follow instructions or play badly. It doesn't matter who.

 

[Hansi Fick]

To be fair just because this is the majority case does not mean statistically it is the best thing to do.

Calling penalties a sheer lottery is a cowards way of just not taking responsibility for trying to improve or get that edge for them.

I understand your point about damage to relationships and trust but this is something that should be covered off before knockout games with a chat with the player. De Gea record in penalties is so so bad that it merits being brought up to the player and decisions made accordingly.

If you were trying to get the edge in a penalty shootout, the most important thing would be to use the luck of the actual coin toss to go first. Because that is the clearest statistical edge in a penalty shootout (and reason why there are understandable calls for a reform of the shooting order).
Then maybe there wouldn't need to be a debate about the pros and cons of humiliating De Gea in the biggest moment of the season.

But puzzlingly, it looks like Fernandes actually let Villareal go first.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

I’ve never seen a goalkeeper look so small in a shoot out. It just looked so easy for the Villarreal players to pass it in the net any which beat they wanted. To me, it smacks of a lack of attention to detail from the management to not consider this when bringing on the specialised penalty takers.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

to a degree they are!

They are to no degree a lottery, that’s why Bruno Fernandes has missed just one penalty in like 23 for United and why DDG as only saved just 11 of the 64 he’s faced, whereas Henderson has saved 8 of 19. It’s also the reason Matt Le Tissier scored something like 50 from 50.

They are nothing like a lottery they are a skill for both keeper and taker.

 

[Sandikan]

Oh I thought he was arguing ole used his bench well

No, there is no arguing that!

 

[arnie_ni]

They are to no degree a lottery, that’s why Bruno Fernandes has missed just one penalty in like 23 for United and why DDG as only saved just 11 of the 64 he’s faced, whereas Henderson has saved 8 of 19. It’s also the reason Matt Le Tissier scored something like 50 from 50.

They are nothing like a lottery they are a skill for both keeper and taker.

If he's let in his last 36, he was 11 of 28 at one stage then? I wonder what's happened

 

[Paul778]

Well it would have helped if DDG would have made proper full length dives to one or the other corner. As it was his attempts to save were so feeble it removed any pressure from the next kicker. /facepalm

 

[Cpt Negative]

If we'd have brought Henderson on and lost, the inquisition would instead be asking why we didn't keep de Gea on.

I don’t think it would. De Gea has saved 2 penalties in his time at United. You have to go with your best keeper for penalties and we bottled that decision.

Im a De Gea fan, but on penalties he goes down so early a composed taker just puts it to the other side.

The commentators talked about the quality of the penalties, one or two were great pens, some just rolled in after de Gea fel to the floor

 

[sugar_kane]

I can think of literally one instance where a manager has subbed his keeper just before a penalty shoot out at this level and that was that madman LVG at the 2014 World Cup.

To blame Ole for not doing this smacks of people who think real world football is FIFA. If anything the decision to start De Gea at all is more open to question, but I understand why he stuck by him given he was in the line up which got us to the final in the first place.

 

[slyadams]

Thats completely different though, you think AWB would have wanted to take a penalty? You're taking off a non attacking player for an attacking player to put the ball in the back of the net.

I don't think it is though, both are moves to increase the stats in your favour. AWB would have taken 1 penalty, DDG had 11 to save, changing the goalkeepers (when there is a significant disparity in the keeper's aptitude for saving penalties) in this situation moves the needle a lot more than changing 1 outfield player.

When you switch one keeper for another in a penalty shootout it's because you think one keeper is better at being a keeper than the other

Being a better penalty saver doesn't mean you're the better keeper. Being a keeper is a variety of disciplines, shot stopping, box control, decision making, strength in the air, one on ones, distribution, throwing etc. etc. Similarly if the way to decide a draw was a chest control competition, I would chose off Fellaini over Messi, but that doesn't make Fellaini a better footballer.

 

[Raees]

If you were trying to get the edge in a penalty shootout, the most important thing would be to use the luck of the actual coin toss to go first. Because that is the clearest statistical edge in a penalty shootout (and reason why there are understandable calls for a reform of the shooting order).
Then maybe there wouldn't need to be a debate about the pros and cons of humiliating De Gea in the biggest moment of the season.

But puzzlingly, it looks like Fernandes actually let Villareal go first.

Well you can just add that to the entire sloppy approach United deployed to this entire game. It was a feckfest by the coaching staff from minute 1.

 

[Wilt]

Ole not bringing on Henderson for the penalties has to be one of the biggest managerial feck ups ever witnessed.

Unforgiveable.

 

[Mr Anderson]

They are to no degree a lottery, that’s why Bruno Fernandes has missed just one penalty in like 23 for United and why DDG as only saved just 11 of the 64 he’s faced, whereas Henderson has saved 8 of 19. It’s also the reason Matt Le Tissier scored something like 50 from 50.

They are nothing like a lottery they are a skill for both keeper and taker.

still cropping out the rest of my point. If you think we only lost it because of Ole not subbing in Hendo - so be it. Far more concerning what happened in the 90 minutes as it keeps happening over and over in games.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Ole is too worried about upsetting people than doing what's required for the win unfortunately.

He's a good man manager and a lovely person, but is he cut throat enough for the top level? i'm just not sure.

We should have been throwing the kitchen sink at them at 1-1, they were dead on their feet.

 

[James Peril]

Pathetic thread, it’s easy to speak after the game. Penalties are about luck, he could easily saved a few and become a hero… let’s not write it all down to stats. It’s not like Henderson is some Buffon reincarnated, it’s not like we have full stats on him and know him as excellent in penalties. De Gea is without question a much better keeper, he is much more experienced, that’s why he was kept in goal. Removing him would be humiliating for him, especially as there is no guarantee at all. Furthermore, how often does a manager sub his keeper for this? Van Gaal when he removed Krul and beought on Cillesen? Yeah it worked once, didn’t work the second time, hardly striking evidence. Penalties are about luck when 20 odd are scored, it could have been over long before if one of their players hit the post or similar, but this was not de Gea’s night.

 

[Giggsyking]

How is this still possible in 2021 that a billion Dollar football club doesn't use any stats at all in making such a huge decision. Its in no way any different to bringing Mata/Telles on and in fact a keeper has more opportunities to make an impact. How can every single person see it apart from the one paid millions to make these decisions

Because he is even:
1- afraid to make big decisions.
or
2- he does not know his players.
or
3-both.

 

[Wilt]

Pathetic thread, it’s easy to speak after the game. Penalties are about luck, he could easily saved a few and become a hero… let’s not write it all down to stats. It’s not like Henderson is some Buffon reincarnated, it’s not like we have full stats on him and know him as excellent in penalties. De Gea is without question a much better keeper, he is much more experienced, that’s why he was kept in goal. Removing him would be humiliating for him, especially as there is no guarantee at all. Furthermore, how often does a manager sub his keeper for this? Van Gaal when he removed Krul and beought on Cillesen? Yeah it worked once, didn’t work the second time, hardly striking evidence. Penalties are about luck when 20 odd are scored, it could have been over long before if one of their players hit the post or similar, but this was not de Gea’s night.

‘Pathetic thread‘ my arse!

Villarreal couldn’t believe their fecking luck knowing Ole had left on the man who had failed to save 25 consecutive pens.

I don’t even blame De Gea we all knew he’s shite at pens, this disaster was on Ole.

 

[DRJosh]

0/36 in his last 36 pens . I don't even get how that is possible

I wonder how this compares to the rest of premiere league keepers.

 

[duffer]

Who actually does this besides van Gaal ?

Sarri tried it! Kepa said "nah".

 

[Floyd]

Based on LVG doing it once, people are acting as if it’s the normal thing to do.

It's not normal to have a GK who concedes 29 penalties in a row.
Extraordinary situation requires extraordinary action.

 

[duffer]

I can think of literally one instance where a manager has subbed his keeper just before a penalty shoot out at this level and that was that madman LVG at the 2014 World Cup.

Sarri at Chelsea tried it but Kepa had other ideas!

 

[Ixion]

I’ve never seen a goalkeeper look so small in a shoot out. It just looked so easy for the Villarreal players to pass it in the net any which beat they wanted. To me, it smacks of a lack of attention to detail from the management to not consider this when bringing on the specialised penalty takers.

I always think he looks scared at penalties, like he's already beaten. He is probably getting worse as the attention is drawn to it.

You get some keepers dancing around, talking shit, the jelly legs, but you can't imagine De Gea really doing any of that, he's like a deer in headlights. Honestly he'd probably have wanted Henderson to be swapped in. There is no logical reason you shouldn't sub in a better penalty keeper, everyone is fine with bringing on players with a minute to go just to take one, why not a better keeper at them too?

You can shit on LVG's style of football but the guy has balls at least and lives and dies by his decisions.

 

[Welbeckham]

Anyone calling this a pathetic and uncalled thread is deluded. De Gea is absolutely hopeless when it comes to saving penalties, everyone knew we had lost at that point.

 

[Red_toad]

We shouldve won within regular time.

Fair point, but in the real world we didn’t. Anyone who knows anything about Dave knows he’s never saving a penalty, Ole must know this.

 

[Welbeckham]

I always think he looks scared at penalties, like he's already beaten. He is probably getting worse as the attention is drawn to it.

He looks scared in general. He lacks any confidence and mental strenght whatsoever. In his position that is equally important with having the technical ability to do things.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

They must know the stats. It's more likely a thought of; if we make this change and it backfires with the goalkeeping debate going on, we'll be crucified.

That is what distinguishes the winners from the nearly men, taking calculated risks.

 

[Giggsyking]

I can think of literally one instance where a manager has subbed his keeper just before a penalty shoot out at this level and that was that madman LVG at the 2014 World Cup.

To blame Ole for not doing this smacks of people who think real world football is FIFA. If anything the decision to start De Gea at all is more open to question, but I understand why he stuck by him given he was in the line up which got us to the final in the first place.

Because he is methodological, He uses his brain to increase his chance of winning. While Ole, you, he is a nice guy and everything.

 

[Floyd]

Ole not bringing on Henderson for the penalties has to be one of the biggest managerial feck ups ever witnessed.

Unforgiveable.

I'm just pleasantly surprised he didn't sub off Bruno in the 120th min.

 

[Wilt]

I wonder how this compares to the rest of premiere league keepers.

Never mind premiere league keepers.... try and find any professional keeper past or present that has failed to save 36 consecutive penalties.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

The mistake was not to start Henderson.

This flip flopping with GK's doesn't reflect well on Ole.

De Gea's a coward who's coasted his whole career on being a top level shot stopper but hasn't devoted any time or attention to the other fundamentals of being a GK.

I think it is quite opposite, he is keeping both GKs happy and is preparing Henderson to take over soon.

 

[laughtersassassin]

It's actually baffling. Like you can check my posts for pre match and I said 3 or 4 times that If it goes to penalities we have to change keeper.

If I know that how do our coaches not.

Sure it's shite for De Gea. But guess what losing the final is even worse.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Based on LVG doing it once, people are acting as if it’s the normal thing to do.

Managers bring on specialist penalty takers all the time, so it is normal to change players for penalty shootouts. Usually GKs are not changed as there are not enough substitutions. In our case we had plenty. Not many teams have a keeper who is so obviously bad at saving penalties.

 

[Floyd]

Psychologically it must be such a relieve for the Villareal players shooting against a GK they know is absolute crap at saving penalties. I think that goes a long way explaining some of their great shooting. Shooters facing Tim Krul are scared to death and that gives him easy saves. His reputation alone is probably responsible for 50 % of his saves.

 

[spiriticon]

If Ole can't find the balls to sub De Gea, he shouldn't have been playing for pens in extra time or, he shouldn't have started De Gea in the first place.

It just smacks of lack of preparation.

Some of decisions last night were just baffling.

 

[podurban2]

Psychologically it must be such a relieve for the Villareal players shooting against a GK they know is absolute crap at saving penalties. I think that goes a long way explaining some of their great shooting. Shooters facing Tim Krul are scared to death and that gives him easy saves. His reputation alone is probably responsible for 50 % of his saves.

This is exactly why you can’t use the argument ”well Henderson wouldn’t have made those saves either”.

 

[Ixion]

The Villarreal players would have been well aware of De Gea's penalty record since everyone else is. Once the first couple were casually put away they would have all been confident about it.

De Gea is either a monster at saving penalties in training but can't do it in games, or he's just as bad in training at them and management chose to ignore it. Either case reflects badly on Ole.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

It’s easy to say with hindsight but I think if Henderson’s between the sticks in that penalty shootout we win. I’m confident he’d have saved at least 1/10 if not more.

 

[Floyd]

This is exactly why you can’t use the argument ”well Henderson wouldn’t have made those saves either”.

I know!
(Monica Geller style)

It's a ridiculous argument.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Mate he saved one penalty for us.... and one for Sheffield

Under 21 European comp?