We aren’t in a position to be in the mix
Declan Rice | signs for arsenal
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I thought we were going to give them 40m + Maguire & McTominay
Need to take into account possession. A Moyes side probably averages 20%
Rodri is a much better player ffs.
Rice would play differently at City with how much of the ball they have, so a perfect comparison is flawed. Yes of course having higher ball winning stats suggest he might be able to win the more at City. Its speculative though with Rodri making the most tackles at City and City having the highest possession stats in football with 65.2% of the ball on average.
The 2nd and 3rd highest are Barcelona and Bayern. Bayern's most active ball winner in midfield Kimmich averaged 5.6 tackles + interceptions combined with them having 0.9% less of the ball. So there should be a margin that can be improved on Rodri's ball winning, but I think its fair to suggest Rodri provides more with the ball which is the counter balance and 99% likely thats whats more important to Pep who mostly thinks about what his team do with the ball.
Theres also the chance that Pep uses him differently than expected trying to impliment a certain tactic, which he has done before with other players. Something that seemed to happen more this season than most was City going to a 3 at the back and also playing Stones next to Rodri for a more solid defensive lineup at times. Both as a 3rd CB who can bring the ball out of the back and join in further forward, or as a solid DM with Rodri being able to attack a bit more seem like they would be some fantastic options for Rice. He already does this at West Ham with Soucek who is allowed to get forward and provide a goal threat especially in the air.
The 2nd and 3rd highest are Barcelona and Bayern. Bayern's most active ball winner in midfield Kimmich averaged 5.6 tackles + interceptions combined with them having 0.9% less of the ball. So there should be a margin that can be improved on Rodri's ball winning, but I think its fair to suggest Rodri provides more with the ball which is the counter balance and 99% likely thats whats more important to Pep who mostly thinks about what his team do with the ball.
Theres also the chance that Pep uses him differently than expected trying to impliment a certain tactic, which he has done before with other players. Something that seemed to happen more this season than most was City going to a 3 at the back and also playing Stones next to Rodri for a more solid defensive lineup at times. Both as a 3rd CB who can bring the ball out of the back and join in further forward, or as a solid DM with Rodri being able to attack a bit more seem like they would be some fantastic options for Rice. He already does this at West Ham with Soucek who is allowed to get forward and provide a goal threat especially in the air.
The fact that the majority of the opposition City play against probably have the ball for a grand total of 7 minutes during the game makes Rodri's stats look all the more impressive.
Might have got more positive response if it was just one player,unfortunately I fear we haven't the money to offer thatI thought we were going to give them 40m + Maguire & McTominay
If he goes to city, don’t be surprised to see him as a CB who breaks into midfield ala Stones
You don’t watch enough of Rodri. If Rice is good enough to displace Rodri then they’ll become the best CM pairing around.
If interceptions and tackles decided who the best player is then Vinicius Souza from Espanyol is a much better player than Rodri.
Rodri is twice as good as Rice, and that is no disrespect to Rice.
Yeah but Rodri's team always has the ball, so he hardly has to make interceptions and tackles.
I was talking to a City fan about Rice today, because I just can't get my head around why they would want or need him.
He reckoned they'd probably ship Phillips out to make way for Rice.
Yeah I definitely reckon they would
We are talking Premier League here.
As for Rodri being twice as good I wonder what the perceptions would be if Rodri had played last season at West Ham under Moyes and Rice had played for City under Pep?
Well, Rodri is the world's best DM while also being a playmaker, so I'd say the perceptions would be the same as they are now. He and Gundogan are crucial to how they play and why they're able to consistently control matches to an insane level.
100% can see this. Gives you slightly more than Stones can in that role further up the pitch but he will start nominally as the RB and then invert alongside Rodri with licence to go further forward.
Rodri is a brilliant DM but he does play for the worlds best team who are on the front foot for pretty much the whole game and they press from the front as if their lives depend on it, forcing the opposition into hurried passes, so he has a pretty good platform to perform on.
Rice on the other hand lives on scraps by comparison as West Ham’s opponents have more time to bring the ball under control and pick a pass, but he is invariably West Ham’s stand out player. It is hard to make the case that he is better than Rodri, but put him in a better team (and we are a better team) and I am convinced we will see him perform at an even higher level.
Same idea as if we signed him. You get a world class backup CDM, a defensive option at #8 to close out games and a ball-playing RCB in one player. And City even play Stones there, and Stones is also probably a good fit on the right of a 3 behind Rice and Rodri if Rice take Stones' job.
If it costs them Phillips and 60M and they're all in on the WM then it make sense, not like they have any real holes other than a backup for Ake, and Gvardiol as their other big signing would finish their summer up at about 200M spending if they buy an LB. Foden and Alvarez can play more if Silva goes, Gundogan's replacement is Kovacic (and maybe a sprinkling of Rice to close out games).
Yeah, Rice is a very good #6, but Rodri was fantastic this season. Clear gap for me.
I wonder if people understand that a key reason why City is so good in possession is Rodri. We've seen the drop off when Phillips comes in
Rodri would walk in any top xi based on his performances this year, can't say the same about Rice.
That should be something like interceptions made when they should have been made, and tackles made when they should have been made, because who is Rodri going to tackle when City have the ball the whole time? It's like blaming a keeper for not making enough saves when no one is shooting at him. And for the record, Rodri is a far superior player in my opinion.
Pep will make him a CB or another tucked in FB in addition to midfield maestro. Another useful cog in the City machine.
That’s not how you compare the two. City basically has far superior possession stat than West Ham that its less likely for Rodri to make those interceptions/tackles than Rice. Besides, Rodri has far better passing stats than Rice too, which suit City possession style more.
(Percentile vs CM)
Pass attempted: Rodri 99 > Rice 76
Pass completion: Rodri 98 > Rice 81
Progressive pass: Rodri 92 > Rice 80
Until he walks into City's side and proves otherwise.
Rodri himself was pretty underrated before he joined City.
your going to pass more in that system though.. it’s basically a pass machine. WestHam can barely string a pass together at times so rice stats are actually pretty impressive.
Can’t we use Mount’s allocated money plus Maguire and McTominay to get Rice?
Sadly it’s not FM
That West ham ex employee saying City haven't bid because he's made it clear he wants to go to Arsenal.
Do you really want to play Rice and Casemiro next to each other?
Yes
Wouldn’t have those stats at West Ham either though would he
Two defensive midfielders. We're Manchester United, not Southampton. We scored 58 goals in 38 league matches. You want to score fewer next season?
Obviously has very little ambition as a player then.
Posters pretend otherwise but players do routinely turn down City. They’re a soulless club who will add nothing to a players legacy
I can see City possibly offering Kalvin-Philips as part of the deal. That will resolve West Ham’s problem of finding a like for like replacement too. K Phillips is definitely surplus to requirements if Rice arrives especially as he was barely getting a kick anyway.Getting outbid on our primary target only to get the better second option. Havertz-Zubimendi-Odegaard, another Edu/Arteta masterclass
That Rodri-Rice-Kovacic-Phillips midfield will be tough to break !
Rice can play well as an 8 too. And he has the benefit of being backup for Casemiro at the 6 if he gets injured or when he inevitably gets suspended.
Our goalscoring issues have been from a lack of a consistently fit CF who can actually put away chances.
No, but Rodri stats back in his days in La Liga has also been impressive though, even when he isn't benefiting from City superior possession football.
Rodri
22-23 for City (percentile vs CM)
Pass attempt: 99
Pass completion: 99
Tackles: 50
Interception: 52
Rodri
18-19 for Atletico (percentile vs CM)
Pass attempt: 87
Pass completion: 97
Tackles: 97
Interception: 78
Rice
22-23 for West Ham (percentile vs CM)
Pass attempt: 78
Pass completion: 85
Tackles: 52
Interception: 93
Look Rice is probably one of the top DM in PL, but apparently he is nowhere as good as Rodri in most measurable stats out there. Strictly speaking, Rice has been consistently better in interception though, but that's about it.
No I want to let the fullbacks way off the leash and Rice can play box to box
Atletico > West Ham.
Not even saying Rice is as good as Rodri (I don't think he is) just saying the stats require context
Rice can play as an 8 in the same way Casemiro can play as an 8. They are both defensive midfielders and should be played as such. I don't know why this obsession with a defensive style have convinced so many fans is the way forward. There is a reason not one of the top teams play with two defensive midfielders. The only team I can think of that comes close is Bayern München, but Kimmich is also a playmaker for them.
I'm not saying we absolutely need to sign Mount, or that there aren't any other ways of playing, but neither Rice nor Casemiro are players that dictate tempo. Their main job is to shield the defence and break up play. Why do we need two midfielders whose primary function is to break up play when we're the team that is meant to dominate the game? Not only does it not make sense, it goes against what Ten Hag is trying to build here, so from a fan point of view, there is no point of even hoping, because the only likely reason we would buy him is if Casemiro turns to absolute shit, or if he moves to another club.
Personally, I'd prefer if we got Rice last summer before Casemiro. Not because I think he is better, but because of his age and how long he could realistically play for us. Defensive midfielders of high quality don't come around too often, so when they do, they should be snapped up quickly before another club does it. Now, we'll have to look at replacing Casemiro in maybe two summers. We should definitely get a back-up though, but Rice won't come here to sit on the bench, and our budget wouldn't allow us anyway considering how many positions we need to fill.
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