Yeah, it's the belief in belief. At least people who believe in organized religions have concrete reasons for why they believe. Holy texts, miracles, outspoken Gods, prophets, etc. The only purpose I see for a deist god is to sneak atheism into a strict religious society.
Deism - Believe in God but not religion
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I got you babe
If I only I could turn back time
Glad it's not just me then
I felt like staring a thread about it because it's such a strange phenomenon. It almost feels like we've been fit with an inbuilt security where, if you try and think about things like that, your brain just stops working. For me it's like my brain just goes black for a split second.There's got to be a subreddit or somewhere to discuss things like this.
Do you believe in life after love?
Through AA these past two years, I have been able to grow my spirituality while continuing to disdain everything religion or religious.
I basically think of the universe as a faded nonogenerian in an old folks' home. There are some very clever and determined people trying to write a biography on the ol' geezer, but it doesn't matter what questions they ask him or how many times they do, they aren't gonna get a first hand account of his own birth.
And anything they do manage to glean about his origins will probably be littered with racist and sexist overtones anyway, so I'm probably better off paying it no mind. Greatest generation my arse.
Not a good reason. Being indoctrinated as a kid when you still believed in Santa is not a good reason. I imagine most diets fall into that camp. Realized the religion they were born into is nonsense but still think something is out there.
There a lot of simpletons who think Jesus/Buddha/Mohammed/Confucius/etc are the god. That's why they talk shit about each other. Like 'nonono Jesus/Buddha/Mohammed/Confucius/etc is my god, your god is not the same as mine so you are wrong'.
My son got kicked out of a religion class for asking "If god created everything who created god?". He wasn't trying to be a dick, it was a genuine question. All after they refused to believe hi when he told them he was excused attending and should be working in the library. They should have listened I guess, although a RE "teacher" who didn't have an answer for such an obvious question probably should be doing something else they were less shit at.It gives me an uneasy feeling when I consider things like this. If there is a god, what did he do before he created anything? Why did he exist? Who created him? It's such a mind feck. When you hit that point along this train of thought and then suddenly the brain just can't comprehend nothingness and it feels weird to try and think about. Unless that's just me
Oh, believing in any God is the biggest mindfeck, it just throws up many more utterly bizarre questions than any other explanation.It gives me an uneasy feeling when I consider things like this. If there is a god, what did he do before he created anything? Why did he exist? Who created him? It's such a mind feck. When you hit that point along this train of thought and then suddenly the brain just can't comprehend nothingness and it feels weird to try and think about. Unless that's just me
The simplest answer is that most likely, the universe is infinite, and has no beginning or end. The Big Bang was simply the start of the phase/part of the universe that we exist in.
that said, if you wanna believe in a God, at least make it a personal one and not some organised fairytale nonsense.
This Carpe Jugulum quote (Terry Pratchett) by Granny Weatherwax has always stuck with me:
"Now if I’d seen him, really there, really alive, it’d be in me like a fever. If I thought there was some god who really did care two hoots about people, who watched ’em like a father and cared for ’em like a mother . . . well, you wouldn’t catch me sayin’ things like ‘there are two sides to every question’ and ‘we must respect other people’s beliefs.’
You wouldn’t find me just being gen’rally nice in the hope that it’d all turn out right in the end, not if that flame was burning in me like an unforgivin’ sword. And I did say burnin’, Mister Oats, ’cos that’s what it’d be.
You say that you people don’t burn folk and sacrifice people anymore, but that’s what true faith would mean, y’see? Sacrificin’ your own life, one day at a time, to the flame, declarin’ the truth of it, workin’ for it, breathin’ the soul of it.
That’s religion. Anything else is just . . . is just bein’ nice. And a way of keepin’ in touch with the neighbors.”
"Now if I’d seen him, really there, really alive, it’d be in me like a fever. If I thought there was some god who really did care two hoots about people, who watched ’em like a father and cared for ’em like a mother . . . well, you wouldn’t catch me sayin’ things like ‘there are two sides to every question’ and ‘we must respect other people’s beliefs.’
You wouldn’t find me just being gen’rally nice in the hope that it’d all turn out right in the end, not if that flame was burning in me like an unforgivin’ sword. And I did say burnin’, Mister Oats, ’cos that’s what it’d be.
You say that you people don’t burn folk and sacrifice people anymore, but that’s what true faith would mean, y’see? Sacrificin’ your own life, one day at a time, to the flame, declarin’ the truth of it, workin’ for it, breathin’ the soul of it.
That’s religion. Anything else is just . . . is just bein’ nice. And a way of keepin’ in touch with the neighbors.”
I’d say they are certainly the more unhinged ones, I mean, “holy texts, miracles, prophets” as concrete reasons says it all
That’s batshit crazy, as daft as a 40 year old believing Santa takes a trip down their chimney every December.
Now if someone simply believes in a higher power, well, I see nothing so crazy about that.
It's so nice a cosy to believe without those pesky religious rules. So easy. Bliss. Now dying for one's beliefs? Nah. Sacrificing you're freedom in any way whatsoever? That's archaic.
It is the same when you try to get your head around infinity?
Maybe because man is finite, and not God-like at all, we are born-live-die... that's it folks (sorry).
In my younger days use to think if there is a God s/he exists wherever infinity is, so its no use us finite mortals trying to figure out what s/he is, or does... we'd have to get to infinity and beyond... just to get in the same ball-park!
Is this Deism?
Yeah I suppose it's the same sort of principle - trying to think about the concept of infinity also forces your brain into that state where it just gives up trying to comprehend. It really just goes to show how incredibly limited we are in our abilities, in the grand scheme of things. Not that I'm the pinnacle of intelligence
But there's so much we don't know and will never know, and that's just the way it's got to be. This is why my outlook on things is generally quite open, including god, life on other planets etc. Our knowledge and science is far too limited to really comprehend what is possible or likely. Hell I could even get behind the idea that we had an origin similar to that in the movie Prometheus Infinity is just the absence of time. There can be no beginning, no end, and nothing in between. No change. So infinity is just nothing.
I don't attribute everything to a God, just the creation of the universe. Everything after that is through the process of science. I don't think there is some grand plan of a God, nor do I sit and wonder what this God wants from us. He/She/It might as well have started the big band and let everything go on it's way from the for all I care.
There isn't any factual evidence for a God, thereby you should think even agnostics are intellectually dishonest since they are being unsure if there is a God when there is nothing to suggest it, in your opinion.
Btw it's funny to see people here bickering and mocking others who don't have any religious beliefs, just because their philosophy of the universe is slightly different. Reminds of the South Park episode where Cartman goes into the future and sees there's no organized religion anymore but atheists are now at war with one another because they follow different philosophers
Muslims don't believe Muhammad is a God, the God for Muslims is Allah.
Or... it's where God lives, in a timeless realm????
If there can be no beginning or end then there can be no moments in between, no?
Because the notion of God is a part of religion and is manufactured in the same manner as the rest of the religious concepts, without religion you would never have any concept of God in your head, what you could have is that of a higher being which is no different than different life forms existing at different levels in a food chain, not one that has a special status, a mythological aura or any mystery around it. The mocking is a result of people inventing mystery with zero correlation to any objective understanding of the universe, and rightly so.
The concept of this belief is barely academic as far as discussing the 'philosophy of the universe' goes, however it is pretty much a middle of the road answer for someone who is actually religion, without conforming to the traditions currently representing the religion. In the end, it is just as religious and the same questions that are put to falsify creationism would be put in this case. In short there's nothing really new or different about Deism as compared to regular religion.
Exactly... and that's many peoples definition of GOD, i.e. no beginning no end etc, Time is man's finite invention to try and measure/estimate how he existed and/or how the world began... and how long he has left??
But who created the gods, then? You don't answer the fundamental questions of existence by putting in a god, you're just creating a middle-man.
That wouldn't make our creators gods in their actual sense, though.
Thinking of the many situations in my life, where I just felt completely railroaded I have sympathy for the simulation theory, but even if that were the reality, there'd still be an actual world in which we exist.
Have you seen the 13th Floor? A fun movie taking on these issues
The definition of religion is the worship of a God. Nothing in my life or how I run it is influenced by this belief of a God, who I don't claim to have have any knowledge about nor do I care. If you want to put that in the same bracket as organized religions then by all means go ahead with that.
Like I said, the South Park episode says it quite nicely. "Using logic and reason is not enough, you have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't think like you"
I don't get the SouthPark reference because at least in my case my reasoning is not a product of my own imagination or belief, it is simply what is factually available to everyone and there's no rational reason to cement a counter-proof. I have little interest if that isn't emotionally acceptable for others, it is what it is.
And worship of God is one aspect of religion but obviously not what entirely defines a religion. Even in one particular religion a lot of people who worship to various different degrees, in your case you can call it close to zero degree but if you are not eliminating the subscription to the belief that there is some almight supernatural guy around, it doesn't really matter whether you are reciting some quotes using their name or accepting their existence. It's fine for you to differentiate but it is 100% a religious sentiment, and not outside of the existing religious beliefs.
Yeah but agnostics aren't making any faith claims. Religious folks are, therefore your analogy may be a bit limited.There isn't any factual evidence for a God, thereby you should think even agnostics are intellectually dishonest since they are being unsure if there is a God when there is nothing to suggest it, in your opinion.
Btw it's funny to see people here bickering and mocking others who don't have any religious beliefs, just because their philosophy of the universe is slightly different. Reminds of the South Park episode where Cartman goes into the future and sees there's no organized religion anymore but atheists are now at war with one another because they follow different philosophers
As for the second bit, we live in a fact based world so obviously anyone who believes in supernatural claims is going to be questioned for them, irrespective of which religion they happen to follow. It wouldn’t matter if one believes Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse or biting into a cracker is symbolic of becoming the body of Christ.
This is why religion allows perfectly sane people by the billions to believe only what a lunatic would believe on their own.
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Except Deism is not a religion.
It doesn't have to be. Its still a belief in the existence of a supreme being in the absense of any evidence.
But that's not a religion, so using other religions as an analogy may be limited.
Both believe in a supreme being, therefore the analogy is still applicable to both. This doesn't apply to atheism or agnosticism since neither make such grandiose claims in the absence of any fact based evidence.
In that same survey, it appears that 63% of the "religious nones" are most likely deists:
I don't find God to be an answer to the creation of the Universe question. It begs the further question who/what created God and how did he/she/it come into existence?
Are they describing their religion as nothing particular or saying that they believe in nothing in particular?In that same survey, it appears that 63% of the "religious nones" are most likely deists:
What question were they asked?
They were really broad in the write-up (and even in the footnote) so it's difficult to tell - I was inferring that "nothing in particual" was we believe "something is out there" but don't prescribe to any of the religions. Here is what the survey said around that chart:
In public opinion surveys, people who answer a question about their religion by saying they are atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” are combined into a category called “religiously unaffiliated” – now widely known as the “nones.” Scholars of religion in the U.S. have been using the term “nones” since at least the 1960s, and its use has grown common in social scientific journals and the media.1"
More info in the footnote:
- Some analysts of religious life in the United States have expressed qualms about connotations of the term “nones.” As sociologist Glenn M. Vernon of the University of Utah wrote in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion in 1968, “It provides a negative definition, specifying what a phenomenon is not, rather than what it is. Intentionally or not, such a use implies that only those affiliated with a formal group are religious.” Still, “nones” has become a popular label for religiously unaffiliated people. As a result, while we use “nones” and “religiously unaffiliated people” interchangeably in this report, we put “nones” in quotation marks to indicate it is a colloquialism. We also emphasize (as our data shows) that the absence of a religious affiliation does not necessarily indicate an absence of religious beliefs or practices. On the contrary, as our report makes clear, most “nones” say they believe in God or a higher power.
Being a deist is essentially the same as believing in organised religion, they’re still people who ultimately seem unable to cope with the idea of a meaningless existence with no apparent explanation or reason, so need to try and resolve that somehow in their head. Whether that’s through organised religion or by trying to magic up some mystical, unknowable god-like being, it’s essentially the same. I’d give the deist slightly more credit as it doesn’t involve trying to convert others I guess. But ultimately people just need to get over it. Stop worrying about ‘why’, accept the vast futility of it all and just enjoy your life. You’ll be happier for it.
Ok thanks so the 63% do believe in something. Although as an atheist I'm not all that happy with the term 'religiously unaffiliated'. It still centres me and my beliefs around the idea of religion.They were really broad in the write-up (and even in the footnote) so it's difficult to tell - I was inferring that "nothing in particual" was we believe "something is out there" but don't prescribe to any of the religions. Here is what the survey said around that chart:
In public opinion surveys, people who answer a question about their religion by saying they are atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” are combined into a category called “religiously unaffiliated” – now widely known as the “nones.” Scholars of religion in the U.S. have been using the term “nones” since at least the 1960s, and its use has grown common in social scientific journals and the media.1"
More info in the footnote:
- Some analysts of religious life in the United States have expressed qualms about connotations of the term “nones.” As sociologist Glenn M. Vernon of the University of Utah wrote in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion in 1968, “It provides a negative definition, specifying what a phenomenon is not, rather than what it is. Intentionally or not, such a use implies that only those affiliated with a formal group are religious.” Still, “nones” has become a popular label for religiously unaffiliated people. As a result, while we use “nones” and “religiously unaffiliated people” interchangeably in this report, we put “nones” in quotation marks to indicate it is a colloquialism. We also emphasize (as our data shows) that the absence of a religious affiliation does not necessarily indicate an absence of religious beliefs or practices. On the contrary, as our report makes clear, most “nones” say they believe in God or a higher power.
Agreed. At least they are not funneling money to religious institutions.
Agnostics and 'nothing in particular' seem similarIn that same survey, it appears that 63% of the "religious nones" are most likely deists:
No, my thinking that there is a God that created the universe has nothing to do with trying to understand the reason for our existence. I don't think about what purpose we have here etc, my initial inclination is that there is no purpose. Just live our lives the best we can and be good to others.
Yet.
For me, the concepts of god(s) and religion, present in every single human culture in one form of another, was an attempt to explain and codify the absurdity of life as well as to contain the violence one human being could inflict on another. Especially in times when humankind couldn't make head or tail of how Earth and the Universe worked, and life was dirt cheap. There was, and still is, solace in believing that the miserable and often short life most of people live isn't the end. That there's a higher presence at work and somehow everything you go through in your mortal life makes sense, no matter how hard or unfair. That there's a light at the end of the tunnel and everyone will get their just reward or punishment. It sustains hope and helps people to keep going.
I personally don't buy it and I really did try. Your acts define what you are, and how you'll be judged and remembered by your fellow humans when you finally bite the dust. Not by some cosmic supra-being.
Deism is basically for people for who understood that but still can't let go of their superstitions. Which is okay.
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