He's German so he's bound to have a punchable face.
Dele Alli is England's best young midfielder playing in Turkey
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Oh man.Plenty of top players get discussions over their top level at some point in their career. Kane was branded a limited one season wonder by many, it's taken him multiple years of being at the top level to be seen as a top class, proven player. Alli is 22, there are very few players in world football who had no debate over what kind of level they're at when they are that age. Alli is at his level? What, a top 4 team who are currently third and still in every cup?
It's funny that plenty of non-Spurs fans also see out of these rose tinted glasses. Facts are he's a 22 year old player who boasts incredible statistics at the top level, everything else is just perception. You view him as limited and at his level and I view that as total nonsense, as do most fans who watch him regularly.
Mueller plays for a club that can afford to accommodate an average player with good stats. But the moment he goes to a big club were he'd be asked to do a lot more, where players and managers are asked to win trophies playing attractive football, like Lingard and Lukaku, his flaws will be exposed.
You're right, but what is Alli's excuse
True, I suppose I mean more how Muller is viewed, as technically completely limited but able to get goals/assists purely due to his movement. Truth is he was an excellent if unfashionable player for a long time, but I simply don't see Alli as being all that similar to him. People want to act as if he's a limited footballer when he's capable of the extraordinary, the only thing he lacks is a bit of consistency and to tidy up his game a bit in terms of his short passing and the fact he loses the ball quite regularly.
The Spurs fans on this forum are so easily triggered.
Thomas Muller and Dele Alli are not even remotely comparable.
Thomas Muller and Dele Alli are not even remotely comparable.
Already answer this dude. Wijnaldum is playing for a team which have been playing better football than United the last 3 seasons, according to you he's then good enough for United?
Kane abilities were not doubted, only people thought he could just be one season wonder, but nobody questioned his talents.
Plenty of top players get discussions over their top level at some point in their career. Kane was branded a limited one season wonder by many, it's taken him multiple years of being at the top level to be seen as a top class, proven player. Alli is 22, there are very few players in world football who had no debate over what kind of level they're at when they are that age. Alli is at his level? What, a top 4 team who are currently third and still in every cup?
It's funny that plenty of non-Spurs fans also see out of these rose tinted glasses. Facts are he's a 22 year old player who boasts incredible statistics at the top level, everything else is just perception. You view him as limited and at his level and I view that as total nonsense, as do most fans who watch him regularly.
Alli have been playing PL football for the last 4 seasons for a midtable club punching above their level. There's a difference of playing for team without high expectations and playing for a team of United caliber. For all your talks and arrogance, United still is regarded as a club with high high expectations than Tottenham.
And I'd like to know your definition of "incredible stats".
Don't be ridiculous. Tottenham has finished in the top 5 in 8 of the last 9 seasons and in 10 of the last 13. Unless you will try to argue they're punching above their weight for more than a decade, you're just being obnoxious for the sake of it.
distasteful comment mate. I'd delete it.
Harry Kane was on loan to Leicester at the age of 20, does that mean Lukaku is a better striker because he has been playing as a starter in the PL at the age of 18 at West Brom?
Because that is basically what you are saying for the Lingard and Alli comparison.
Having invested close to £1 billion pounds in a new training centre and new stadium complex - key foundation stones for the long-term - any fair-minded person would say "yes, most definitely" in answer to your question.
....what?Muller has never been world class?
Good player playing in a 1 team league. Matter of opinions I guess.
Are you forgetting his performances in the CL and for Germany?
He might be the type of player who needs a well drilled team around him, put his output has certainly been world class for large parts of this decade.
He would probably be more sought after by other top clubs clubs if not for the fact that everyone knows Bayern would never sell one of their golden boys in their best age.
Well you could argue that Kane and Lukaku are closer than Lingard and Alli because only last season did Lingard put up performances and numbers to be worthy of a comparison.
Kane and Lukaku are the same age and for 3/4 years competing goal wise whereas Lingard is four years older than Alli.
Wijnaldum is clearly showing that he is good enough to be a squad player at a team with title winning ambitions, he is not the main reason they are where they are though. Similarly Cleverley won the league, but I wouldn't say that made him someone a club wanting to get into the top 4 should sign.
And about 'punching above their weight', the team have consistently finished in the top 3 because it has been a top 3 team for the last few seasons. That is thanks to the players, you seem to confuse a badge with the quality on the pitch for some reason. A team is only as good as the performances on the pitch, and although history and financial power etc does matter, it doesn't mean anything on the quality of an individual player. Alli is not worse than x united player because Scholes, Keane and Cantona were great in the past. This makes no sense.
You are free to argue that Alli is not good enough for the team you want United to be, and even not better than Mata, Lindgard, Fred and so on - although I think most people would disagree.
Yes, yes they were. In fact, up till last season I heard plenty of people call him limited and successful 'despite' a lack of talent. People always doubt players, there's always rivals who don't rate opposition players. The idea that nobody ever doubted Kane's talent is absurd, where was he at 22? Alli is still a young player who has plenty of developing to do, yet he is already doing it at the top level in the premier league and in Europe. Anybody can see the talent he has, most people who are involved in football don't doubt it.
We're a midtable club who haven't been midtable in about 10 years (when we finished 8th). Since then we've been a top six team, then pushed up as regular challengers for top 4, and after Pochettino's first season have been in the top four every single year, comfortably to boot. This season we look set to do it once again, and we have once finished second in that time. We're not a mid table club, you can continue to call us that and ignore the reality of the situation but it just makes you look foolish. I know it might be enjoyable for you to live in the past, but the face of football has shifted in a decade .. City are no longer a poor team either, catch up.
My talk and arrogance? You're the one being arrogant. You've come in and justified your nonsense agenda with the idea that it's so much harder to be good for United than it is for little Spurs. I haven't sat here and said we're a bigger club than you (we're clearly not) and yes the expectations at United are higher, but Alli's last couple of seasons would be considered excellent at any club in the league. You're talking total drivel and having nothing to back it up rather than waffle and false comparisons to players like Lukaku.
Is this what you retained from the whole debate?
It's hard to take anything of your post serious if you start making comments like that.
Are you really saying that any player, like Lingard or Lukaku, would be able to achieve what Müller has achieved for Germany and Bayern if only they played instead of him?
Yes, one of the reasons being that many of your players are not as good as fantasists like yourself crack them up to be. But you're unable to see this, because you're lost in elitist delusions.
Another reason for United's failure is that some of the rival teams, like Spurs for instance, have players who are a good deal better than you're willing to credit.
Imagine going in to a thread about a rivals player, telling people he's only good because they're a little club and there aren't expectations of him, and then having the audacity to accuse other people of being arrogant.
Alli is a regular starter for Spurs and has been for years. No way would he be a regular starter for a club like United. However I am surprised Lingard is a regular starter for us.
Also I didn’t say Lingard was better because he isn’t. I was just pointing out that your reason was not a ver good one.
He wouldn't? We've mostly been better than you in the period he's been starting for us. Why would he not be starting for a club who are doing worse?
Alli scored 18 and assisted 7 in his breakthrough season, and scored 9 and assisted 10 last campaign. There's no reason to think a player like that wouldn't be getting regular starts for a club like Manchester United, especially when the likes of Lingard and Rashford seem to play often enough.
What arrogance and delusion? That a team that is consistently near the top of the table every season for the past 5 years or so should not consider themself capable of actually winning it? Is that arrogance and delusion? Sorry I'm really not sure why you would think that.
Completely agree. We flirted with him, but as with the likes of Giggs or Maldini he was never going to go (at least when he’s in his prime).
On another topic:
I find this limited argument very silly. Every player is limited! Harry Kane doesn’t have great pace, so what. He makes up for it in every other area, and is a World Class striker. Lack of pace means he will never be as good as Fat Ronaldo, but that’s some bar...
Alli is limited in the things he does, I don’t think he’s a great long passer of the ball, and doesn’t retain the ball in the the way Scholes or Modric does - so what, thats not what he’s there for, he scores and creates goals, and is very good at it.
List of complete players:
Pele
Duncan Edwards
and that’s about it (clearly there are more, but you get my point).
Huge difference between 20 and 23.
How many top players didn’t establish themselves at first division level until 23?
For what it’s worth, Lukaku was already 19 when he joined WBA, not 18 as you stated.
.I presume United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool are trembling with fear with the new Spurs investments.
Now you're slowly starting to get it. Alli, like Wijnaldum and Cleverly, is a bench player quality for a great team with great ambitions, but for a team like Tottenham he's a starter.
United may be underperforming actually, but our ambitions and targets each season are still bigger than your's and this is reflected by the level of players and money we spend in each transfer window.
You'll find your true level the moment Poch leaves you for United or Madrid. He's the one person keeping this puzzle together, many players have improve thanks to his management, and unlike United you'll not have the money to bail you out of troubles.
Lots. Drogba was a lot older, Ian Wright would have been older as well. Klose, RVN, Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke (as a striker), OGS.
That’s just a few strikers off the top of my head.
You'll find your true level the moment Poch leaves you for United or Madrid. He's the one person keeping this puzzle together, many players have improve thanks to his management, and unlike United you'll not have the money to bail you out of troubles.
Yeah yeah, same shit we've been hearing for years. At worse we might drop out of the top 4 but we're not going back to being a mid table side no matter how much you might wish for it. Pochettino is a fantastic manager but he's not a magician, we have an excellent team and even before Pochettino were a side who were in and around the top four.
It's clear you just have an agenda against Spurs, so there is absolutely no point in continuing any discussion.
That’s a bit of a silly comment in a Man Utd forum - any comeback would be, is Man Utd’s true level 5th? Without Fergie who held it all together... look what’s happened!
You'll find your true level the moment Poch leaves you for United or Madrid. He's the one person keeping this puzzle together, many players have improve thanks to his management, and unlike United you'll not have the money to bail you out of troubles.
Won the golden boot once or twice? tooSome absolute BS being written here. Thomas Muller average/mediocre? Multiple league titles, deep runs in the CL, an actual treble, and a World Cup winner, and the guy is average?
Alli is really good, but I don't think he'd take United up a level. Imo the two players at Spurs who have elevated them to the status they've achieved over the last 4 years are Kane and Eriksen.
That's not to malign Son, Lucas, Dembele, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, etc. but rather to say that I think those two provide a platform for others to thrive which is the difference between a valuable contributor and a game changer.
That's not to malign Son, Lucas, Dembele, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, etc. but rather to say that I think those two provide a platform for others to thrive which is the difference between a valuable contributor and a game changer.
Beginning to sound like Glaston
You're talking absolute nonsense by the way. Why would any United fan have a fecking agenda against Spurs? The problem is the Spurs fans on this forum (most of them anyway) get all defensive when discussing their own players. The mere suggestion that one of them could be 'just another average footballer' seems to send you on a frenzy. It's difficult holding a rational conversation if you can't keep your shit together.
Last few years I actually think there was some truth to it. I remember comparing the Spurs squad to the United squad the last few years before he retired and thought that if Fergie had this squad he could win the league with them.
But you'll have to admit that most players playing for United now aren't good enough as well surely? And that your point of being good enough for United has nothing to do with the current United team, but rather your ideal United team?
Now you're slowly starting to get it. Alli, like Wijnaldum and Cleverly, is a bench player quality for a great team with great ambitions, but for a team like Tottenham he's a starter.
United may be underperforming actually, but our ambitions and targets each season are still bigger than your's and this is reflected by the level of players and money we spend in each transfer window.
You'll find your true level the moment Poch leaves you for United or Madrid. He's the one person keeping this puzzle together, many players have improve thanks to his management, and unlike United you'll not have the money to bail you out of troubles.
This is true, but both Eriksen and Kane are in and around the prime of their respective careers. I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that whilst Alli might not be there yet, in a couple of seasons he could have developed to that level. The raw materials are all there and that's reflected in his productivity in the final third, it's just that his game isn't as polished as Eriksen or Kane's right now and he still has work to do in that respect. I think he's showed real signs of improving that this season, so we'll see.
Luke Shaw was a great young promise talent at mid table club, Ashley Young was a terrifying winger at Aston Villa, Lukaku was one of the best PL striker at Everton, .... those players are currently struggling at United. Those players were not good enough for United but shined at their previous club, if got rid immediately after we noticed our mistakes, we wouldn't be in this mess. I'm aware that we have some average players in our team, Alli will just looks like the many mistakes we made in the past.
Our failure is due to our own mistakes, have nothing to do with Spurs, you just capitalized on it. The moment we showed a little bit stability we finished above you last season with the same army of average players, says much about your level. Where were your fantastic players last season?
Not everybody who defends our club/players is Glaston. There are times when legitimately stupid things are just said about our club/players, and our fans on here absolutely have a right to put their view across.Beginning to sound like Glaston
You're talking absolute nonsense by the way. Why would any United fan have a fecking agenda against Spurs? The problem is the Spurs fans on this forum (most of them anyway) get all defensive when discussing their own players. The mere suggestion that one of them could be 'just another average footballer' seems to send you on a frenzy. It's difficult holding a rational conversation if you can't keep your shit together.
I don't know, why would any United fan refer to Spurs as a mid table club when we haven't been for a decade? To get a reaction. I think there are plenty of United fans who don't like the fact that a club like Spurs have got up there and are competing for the top four spots, there are plenty of people who are a fan of the established order and don't like when it is upset. I think the constant digs he's making at our club and the little 'you're going to go back where you belong when you lose your manager' make it very clear he's not a huge fan.
It's hardly surprising that when United fans call Spurs players who are integral to the team 'average', it's going to put people on the defensive. You're talking about players who have us 3rd in the league and who are responsible for us consistently finishing in the top four. You don't get there by being average, and when you couple that by suggesting they're only good because there are no expectations on them of course people are going to react to it.
There is no rational conversation here, it's playground stuff. No genuine arguments are being put forward by the other side apart from 'he'd be crap elsewhere he's only good because nobody expects anything at Spurs'. It's boring to listen to, and it isn't just Spurs fans who are saying that.
Maybe you're mistaken me and hence the whole debate. When I said "great club with big ambitions", I'm not talking about United specifically but about every big club of United level, I mean the like of United, Madrid, City, Chelsea, Barca, Bayern. But yes this current United side is carrying many average players in the 1st Eleven, the like of Lingard(who I compared to Alli) are not good enough to start for our team.
Now, you would be right but at his peak, he was a world class player. There's no question about it. At no point during that period was he being carried by Bayern
Perhaps. I'm not a huge believer in his upside as a more polished creative force, but I don't watch Spurs every week. He seems best as a second striker than he is as a creative midfielder which if true I think makes him a difficult fit at the top European sides who generally don't play with one.
Obviously that suits Tottenham just fine and there's also a chance he can develop into more than that.
No, he's actually like a young Nostradamus thinking he knows what would happen if Muller would go to a big team.
I have no fecking idea how the guy knows.
One thing is to have an opinion, but to say you know what would happen when a player goes to another team is plain crazy.
He should've told Barca not to spend 300 mil on 2 players.