No. Not fulfilled his potential. Should be breaking PL goal scoring record with his early promise indicated than crawling over the line vs Sir Bobby Charlton record the last 1.5 seasons.
Did Wayne Rooney fulfil his potential?
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
Nope. He was a forward.
I don't think he did, no.
I think he fulfilled his potential. The only thing he didn't do was elevate himself into that truly world class tier currently held by Messi and Ronaldo. Even then he briefly touched that level at times. But I don't think you can judge a player's career as unfulfilled merely because he wasn't the best in the world.
He's won every trophy going at club level, become our top scorer and, if longevity is a factor, is in the conversation for best ever Premier League player. If you made a top 100 English players al all time, he'd be fairly high up that list. Surely that has to be seen as a pretty special achievement?
He's won every trophy going at club level, become our top scorer and, if longevity is a factor, is in the conversation for best ever Premier League player. If you made a top 100 English players al all time, he'd be fairly high up that list. Surely that has to be seen as a pretty special achievement?
Messi and Ronaldo set the bar so high that in comparison to them no one looks great for sustained periods of time, Rooney is one of those that at times was great but wasn't continuously great for a decade like Messi and Ronaldo have been.
Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Kaka, Neymar, Bale, Hazard, Griezmann, Aguero, Robben, Ribery, Van Persie, Suarez, Totti and Gerrard have all been considered amongst the greatest players in the world over the past 15 years yet they didn't do every single season over a decade like Messi or Ronaldo.
Reality is potential is only hypethetical and opinion and in England we talk people up so much they have no chance of realising their supposed potential with Jack Wilshere, Raheem Sterling, Theo Walcott, Aaron Lennon, Joe Cole, Joe Hart, Ben Foster, Francis Jeffers and countless others can attest too.
Is Rooney on level with Messi or Ronaldo ? Absolutely not and I'd put those two on a level with Maradona, Pele and Cruyff as the top five players off all time. Has Rooney realised his supposed potential ? From how he was talked up as "the white Pele" then no but that was media build up and hype.
He's won every single club honour possible, played in World Cup's and Euro's, record top scorer for England, joint record top scorer for us and no doubt soon sole owner to that record and played at the very highest level for nearly fifteen years. He's past his best for sure and at best now he's a squad player that isn't part of our strongest squad but during his peak of say 2004-2012 he was very good just as a lot were that also weren't on Messi or Ronaldo levels.
Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Kaka, Neymar, Bale, Hazard, Griezmann, Aguero, Robben, Ribery, Van Persie, Suarez, Totti and Gerrard have all been considered amongst the greatest players in the world over the past 15 years yet they didn't do every single season over a decade like Messi or Ronaldo.
Reality is potential is only hypethetical and opinion and in England we talk people up so much they have no chance of realising their supposed potential with Jack Wilshere, Raheem Sterling, Theo Walcott, Aaron Lennon, Joe Cole, Joe Hart, Ben Foster, Francis Jeffers and countless others can attest too.
Is Rooney on level with Messi or Ronaldo ? Absolutely not and I'd put those two on a level with Maradona, Pele and Cruyff as the top five players off all time. Has Rooney realised his supposed potential ? From how he was talked up as "the white Pele" then no but that was media build up and hype.
He's won every single club honour possible, played in World Cup's and Euro's, record top scorer for England, joint record top scorer for us and no doubt soon sole owner to that record and played at the very highest level for nearly fifteen years. He's past his best for sure and at best now he's a squad player that isn't part of our strongest squad but during his peak of say 2004-2012 he was very good just as a lot were that also weren't on Messi or Ronaldo levels.
What is this thing where people name players at the extreme end of the player spectrum in the hope it makes their point for them?
If you know anything about the first two, you know nobody on planet earth has ever grouped Rooney with either except for a laugh or in song. 'White Pelé' was not literal...
There's also absolutely no need to mention Messi.
Ronaldo, it's different, given they started off their grander journey into the bright lights at this club, played together for a few years, and then split off onto completely different tangential lines.
You could have said: 'no he is not Suarez, Robben, Muller, Iniesta or Eto'o etc. etc.' and made the same point.
No he isn't. He wouldn't even get into a reserve all-time xi for England, he'd be hard-pressed to do the same for Manchester United (reserve xi) and yet you expanded your claim to the whole of Britain.
Charlton; Greaves; Shearer; Lineker; Beardsley; Gascoigne, Platt, Keegan, Hurst and even Michael Owen, shut the door on him at international level. The caveat here is that Rooney's international career has been ruined by misfortune due to his numerous injuries before or during tournaments.
But even taking international football out of it, Rooney is not going to fare well against the likes of: Law, Dalglish, Scholes, Rush, Keegan (if you see his international performance as a letdown.)
Rooney is jostling for position in amongst the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Baxter, James and so forth.
And that's just a grouping of attackers through the middle. You add other positions and Rooney drops further.
That could be down to a number of factors, though.
Manchester United will have to be at a level where they can hold on to a player with the ability to break the record for the majority of his career, first and foremost. Then, another one with that level of talent will have to emerge. Given Rooney is and always was a once-in-a-generation level talent, that is going to take time.
From my standpoint, I'd love for it to be an English player challenging for it, which will take even more time.
But this issue is independent of whether Rooney fulfilled his potential.
Theo Walcott has never once in his life been touted as a once-in-a-generation level talent. He's never been in the same stratosphere as Rooney in terms of anything to do with a football pitch except the age that he came through at, and how fast he used to be able to run. At least compare Rooney to a like-for-like level of player from the outset or you just sound like you're arguing against a straw-man you've created to validate your point.
Rooney had the footballing world in a frenzy and was a global star, due to his exploits on the pitch, before he was 20 years old. There's so few players at that kind of level in the history of the game that it outlines what Rooney's standing was. Incidentally, more often than not, players in this bracket go on to be true all-time legends.
I think he has fulfilled his potential. Rooney has always struck me as the type of lad who lives and breathes football... but early Rooney was quick and explosive. Like the vast majority of players, he was going to lose much of that as he got older.
I don't know how you could argue that Rooney could have become a lot better than he did. Where's the evidence?
I don't know how you could argue that Rooney could have become a lot better than he did. Where's the evidence?
I think part of the problem with asking predominantly United fans this kind of question is that it is almost impossible to seperate the emotion from the facts.
Potential means different things to everyone and therefore we are never going to reach a consensus on that but what I would argue is that yes Rooney did reach his potential.
When he first came onto the scene we were touting him as the future of English football and the press salivated over the prospect of a true great of the game rising from within our little island.
His career, by definition has been unmatched by any United striker or forward in our clubs history, he is by definition the most prolific striker England has ever had within her ranks and so the mind boggles when one sees arguments that he hasn't lived up to expectations. Expectaions can often be the problem.
Even if you expected him to be one of the best players to have played the game I would argue all emotion aside (for the record I haven't like him as an individual since his requests) that he is certainly one of the best players this country has ever produced perhaps even the best based purely on his contributions statistically and the longevity of his career. He is like it or not then one of the games all time greats and until someone surpasses his records he will remain so.
It would be unrealistic to expect any player to have the same explosive bull in China shop approach that Rooney had at 16-20 all the way into there 30s. Human physiology does not allow this and so Rooney has learnt to adapt his game to suit his limitations. It wasn't as exciting and it maybe came as a disappointment to those who had the opinion that Rooney should be that same bull well into his 20s.
Having said that young Rooney is the most exciting English footballer I have ever seen play the game. I think we are so spoilt in this generation by Lionel Messi that people lose sight of what is great, what is exceptional and what is Messi. Rooney is/was an exceptional player in that it will be a very long time before anyone comes close to his records and hype from England so potential reached in my opinion.
Potential means different things to everyone and therefore we are never going to reach a consensus on that but what I would argue is that yes Rooney did reach his potential.
When he first came onto the scene we were touting him as the future of English football and the press salivated over the prospect of a true great of the game rising from within our little island.
His career, by definition has been unmatched by any United striker or forward in our clubs history, he is by definition the most prolific striker England has ever had within her ranks and so the mind boggles when one sees arguments that he hasn't lived up to expectations. Expectaions can often be the problem.
Even if you expected him to be one of the best players to have played the game I would argue all emotion aside (for the record I haven't like him as an individual since his requests) that he is certainly one of the best players this country has ever produced perhaps even the best based purely on his contributions statistically and the longevity of his career. He is like it or not then one of the games all time greats and until someone surpasses his records he will remain so.
It would be unrealistic to expect any player to have the same explosive bull in China shop approach that Rooney had at 16-20 all the way into there 30s. Human physiology does not allow this and so Rooney has learnt to adapt his game to suit his limitations. It wasn't as exciting and it maybe came as a disappointment to those who had the opinion that Rooney should be that same bull well into his 20s.
Having said that young Rooney is the most exciting English footballer I have ever seen play the game. I think we are so spoilt in this generation by Lionel Messi that people lose sight of what is great, what is exceptional and what is Messi. Rooney is/was an exceptional player in that it will be a very long time before anyone comes close to his records and hype from England so potential reached in my opinion.
I'm no fan of Rooney, should have gone the first time he wanted away in 2010.
But to ask if a man who's won every club honour going in a Utd jersey, will no doubt become the clubs all time leading goal scorer as well as England's all time leading scorer if he's reached his potential?!
Another Rooney thread for this? Really?!
But to ask if a man who's won every club honour going in a Utd jersey, will no doubt become the clubs all time leading goal scorer as well as England's all time leading scorer if he's reached his potential?!
Another Rooney thread for this? Really?!
What seasons was rooney world class? 2009 - 2010 when else? Maybe you could argue 2011-2012 but even that would be a stretch. Zlatan has been playing at a world class level for 12 plus years. Also how anyone is saying that zlatan's best years the last couple in france is ridiculous and would show a serious lack of knowledge when it comes to his career and what he did in italy. In Italy he played for 3 teams and guess what happened in each of the seasons he was in those teams............... They won the title. Thats how big an impact zlatan had. He'sat that level for a long time and has reached a level many seasons that Rooney has never got close to.
They've had different career paths that's all. Clearly you'd prefer the first half of Rooney's career and the second half of Zlatans. I don't see how that can be disputed.
Rooney hasn't fulfilled his potential but only by a small margin. I don't agree with those using trophies won to back up their point but as a player he's reached heights very few do.
He could have worked on that first touch, he's become more one footed as he's got older and there's the obvious fitness issues.
However it seems churlish to pick on these things given the career he's had.
This. Never been close to being an absolute world class player has he really.
Right i see now that you severely underestimate Rooney and most likely overrate Zlatan. Not going to get into a tedious argument about which player is better, as thats down to opinion.
But it's revisionism to say Rooney was never a world class player, fair enough different people have different criteria of what is world class. But in my opinion and by most peoples criteria between 2006 and 2011-2012 Rooney was world class. He was one of the top 5-10 attacking players in the world during that period before he started declining around 2012-13.
Difficult to say, when Rooney and Ronaldo both came to the club, most would agree that Rooney was the more talented of the two, but we've been able to see the career projections and we know who certainly ended up on top.
I don't think he was ever going to be the absolute top bracket of player, but he could have been better. I'd sort of say an 8/10 in fulfilling potential, was world class, but not for long periods of time, sort of in stints and spates.
I don't think he was ever going to be the absolute top bracket of player, but he could have been better. I'd sort of say an 8/10 in fulfilling potential, was world class, but not for long periods of time, sort of in stints and spates.
I always thought it was clear Ronaldo had the higher ceiling. Rooney was just more mature at that age. It was always going to be the case that with a few years experience Ronaldo's ability would be greater.
It's a bit unfair on Rooney to compare the two just because at 18 they were at a similar level.
Oh I still completely agree, I probably should have stated that (IMO) because Rooney was seen as more talented at the time, and at a similar age, people had just as high hopes for him as Ronaldo, even though after a couple seasons it became very apparent that Ronaldo was going to be the best, let alone world class.
I just think people were hoping for a Shearer type in Rooney, and probably the one to break that record in the PL. He by no means disappointed but just don't think he quite got to the top of his own ceiling.
I'm not a Rooney hater, he has frustrated me at times in the last few seasons, but that's not entirely his fault, if you're being asked to play first team all the time you're not going to say no. And you have to respect that from him that he always wants to play regardless.
I just think he's been playing at the top level for so long his decline was always going to come earlier, something which many have discussed and agreed for quite some time.
For the sake of prolonging his own career, being a sub/cup player seems to have reignited some fire back into his game as he can have a rest now. Plus he knows he has to fight for his place.
He looked completely burnt out early on last season, and was looking like a Pub league player at one point.
That's nothing more than English ignorance. In the years proceeding his time in France, he was voted ahead of Rooney 5 times, Rooney was voted ahead of him twice, and on 2 occasions neither featured. Or looking at it another way, Ibrahimovic was named in the top 10 on 5 occasions while Rooney was named there just 3 times. He actually featured in the top 10 more often for Inter than he did for PSG, because achievements in the French league are given an appropriate weighting...
- 2004 - Rooney 8th, Ibrahimovic didn't feature
- 2005 - Ibrahimovic 8th, Rooney didn't feature
- 2006 - Neither player featured
- 2007 - Ibrahimovic 7th, Rooney 27th
- 2008 - Ibrahimovic 9th, Rooney 13th
- 2009 - Ibrahimovic 7th, Rooney 8th
- 2010 - Neither player featured
- 2011 - Rooney 5th, Ibrahimovic didn't feature
- 2012 - Ibrahimovic 10th, Rooney 15th
Fair enough but that would be a very loose use of world class if you truly believe he was world class during that period especially when Rooney has been an extremely streaky player anyway he had stretches like in the first half of the 2010-2011 season so often theres just no way he could be considered world class. When he was younger it was even worse with his bad discipline and inconsistent performances. But hey opinions. Zlatan or any other world class player has had the kind of lows Rooney has had so consistently thats why he was only world class for 1 season for me.
I'm not English so there goes that theory.
As for the rest are you talking about the Ballon D'or?
You use rankings in a popularity contest to form your opinion on how good players are/were?
Sorry but i place zero stock in those rankings they are meaningless, some years they get it right some years they are way off. And thats before even mentioning that english based players are historically overlooked. Evidenced by the fact only two english league players have won it in nearly 50 years despite the long list of amazing players to play there, not to mention two periods of the european cup being contested by english teams every year. In the late 70's early 80's english teams won the thing 7 years straight. And yet not a single ballon d'or was won by any of those players.
Well thats your opinion mate but i think you criminally underrate Rooney.
Yes. He was brilliant for years, especially the year we won the CL. Ronaldo took the headlines but Rooney was right up there in terms of importance. His best season for us.
When he smashed one in against Arsenal for Everton no one saw him having as good a career as he had.
When he smashed one in against Arsenal for Everton no one saw him having as good a career as he had.
The way I look at it, when we signed him for £30m back when he was 18, would you have been happy with the way his career has panned out? The answer has to be a resounding YES.
He's achieved everything at United and been a focal point of our attack as we've won a ridiculous number of trophies. And he'll become our record goal scorer. That is the very definition of a bargain and fulfilled potential.
Even in the last few years as his powers have started to wane, he basically won us the FA Cup last season. In the final, when we were getting desperate for a spark or bit of genius to get us back in the game, who picked up the ball, beat a couple of players and set up a tap in?
He's been an amazing player, for an absurd number of years. I think if he'd had the best years of his career from age 22-33 instead of from 17-28, people would have no hesitation in calling him an all time great.
He's achieved everything at United and been a focal point of our attack as we've won a ridiculous number of trophies. And he'll become our record goal scorer. That is the very definition of a bargain and fulfilled potential.
Even in the last few years as his powers have started to wane, he basically won us the FA Cup last season. In the final, when we were getting desperate for a spark or bit of genius to get us back in the game, who picked up the ball, beat a couple of players and set up a tap in?
He's been an amazing player, for an absurd number of years. I think if he'd had the best years of his career from age 22-33 instead of from 17-28, people would have no hesitation in calling him an all time great.
Even if you believe those rankings to be completely accurate (you don't do you?) there's a five year age gap rendering them not so useful.
Take the two players from age 17-25, I can't believe anybody would prefer Zlatan.
Edit: English football and English opinion gets a right kicking on this forum.
Good summary. Nobody would dispute Ronaldinho and Ronaldo as being one of the best players of all time and yet they both had similar declines in their late 20s that Rooney has had.
No but you're seeing it from a distinctly English perspective...as your subsequent suggestion of anti-English bias suggests. If you don't think Ibrahimovic was better than Rooney between 2007-2009 then I'd hazard a guess you watched very little of Ibrahimovic. His best seasons at Inter and Milan were better than anything Rooney managed.
Seems weird that Rooney would suffer from this anti-Premier League bias in a way that others didn't, in any case. In 2007, Ronaldo and Drogba finished ahead of both Rooney and Ibrahimovic. In 2008, Ronaldo and Torres finished ahead of them both. In 2009, England had more players in the top 4 than any other league (Ronaldo, Rooney, Gerrard, Drogba).
The age gap for Ibrahimovic doesn't matter now so I don't see why it should be a factor. At the end of the day, over their careers Ibrahimovic was better in at least 2/3 of the seasons and that continues to be the case.
Well these awards are mostly biased towards goalscoring forwards. Rooney was often used out wide in this period or behind another striker. In 2008's Ballon d'Or Vidic is placed 21st and yet in my memory he was after Ronaldo, our best player that year. I find it hard to believe there were really 20 better footballers than Vidic that year.
From what I recall Ibra was often found missing in big games, including when we faced them in 2009.
I think its fair to say Ibra was the better goalscorer from 2007-2009, but I'm pretty sure a lot of unbiased football supporters and managers rated Rooney over Ibra for his overall contribution. Just talking of United too, its arguable whether a trio of Ibra, Tevez and Ronaldo would have even worked .
Never change, Nick.It matters because you started the comparison in 2004. At which point Rooney was 19 and Zlatan was 24. Zlatan should be doing better at that stage.
To compare them you'd be better using their equivalent ages rather than the year. At 20 Rooney was at Manchester United and had already bossed an international tournament. He was a world star. Ibra was still at Malmo.
To me it's 50/50. Upto 25/26 you take Rooney. No question. After that Ibra.
By the same token Rooney should be doing better at 31 than Ibrahimovic at 35. Evidently it doesn't quite work that way. Rooney at 19 was better than Rooney at 29, and Ibrahimovic at 34 was better than Ibrahimovic at 24. It's a perfectly fair comparison and it's the most straightforward way to illustrate Ibrahimovic's obvious superiority.
Ibrahimovic was so much more than a goalscorer at Inter. He was goalscorer, playmaker, talisman and sometimes a one man team. Stick Rooney in the team instead of him and there's no way Inter win 3 in a row.
Thtas funny, when I used to go watch him play I was certain he was in midfield
Well yeah true. That's why comparing what they were doing in 2004 or 2015 doesn't work. There's 5 years between them and they've peaked at opposite ends of their career.
Aged 17-25 who would you want in your team. Rooney or Ibra?
I maintain that Rooney was as good a 'natural' footballer as Ronaldo but he lost his psychical gifts earlier. Probably a combination of injuries and not being as comitted as Ronnie. He had passing ability that Ronnie never had and in many ways was a better playmaker than him. So in that regards he didn't fully realise his potential and hasn't adapted his game as well as his old team mate did.
Watching the 2 of them develop into top players is still the most joy I've had as a fan of this club. A real shame one left and the other faded badly. Although now he's been managed property he hasn't had a bad season overall.
Watching the 2 of them develop into top players is still the most joy I've had as a fan of this club. A real shame one left and the other faded badly. Although now he's been managed property he hasn't had a bad season overall.
It seems a very arbitrary cut-off point. Over the course of their careers I'd rather have Ibrahimovic. At their peaks I'd rather have Ibrahimovic. Everything else is a bit irrelevant.
I'd say yes, objectively looking at the overall stats and what he has won. However, looking at the stats on a season by season basis, I'd say I expected more after seeing what he could do at the Euros in '04 and his first game for us. That's obviously not a fair way of looking at it though.
Like someone else said, young Rooney was a force of nature. Not so much "old" Rooney. Looking back I think his last 3-4 years have skewed the image a bit, I certainly have to make an effort to remember how good he actually used to be.
Like someone else said, young Rooney was a force of nature. Not so much "old" Rooney. Looking back I think his last 3-4 years have skewed the image a bit, I certainly have to make an effort to remember how good he actually used to be.
First 8 years of their careers, about halfway, so not particularly arbitrary. After that clearly Ibra has been better.
It's a pretty simple question, 17-25 who was better, Rooney or Ibra?
Another comparison is Frank Lampard. Rooney's natural talent is way beyond anything Fat Frank could ever dream of, but their career achievements are very similar.
In fact one could argue FF's star burned brighter; being as pivotal for Chelsea, more influential for England and being voted second in the ballon d'or.
That their careers are even comparable shows Rooney has not fulfilled is potential; not even close to having done so.
In fact one could argue FF's star burned brighter; being as pivotal for Chelsea, more influential for England and being voted second in the ballon d'or.
That their careers are even comparable shows Rooney has not fulfilled is potential; not even close to having done so.
It just seems like a fairly pointless question. Who was better in the first half of their career, Scholes or Xavi? Probably Xavi, but it presents such a limited perspective of their careers that it's barely worth thinking about. Comparing players at the same point in time or over the course of their careers makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons. Anything else doesn't seem worthwhile.
He could have done better if Fergie didn't shunt him to the wing but we did have Ronaldo.
Never quite captured the imagination after his 1st couple of seasons.
His achievements though rank way ahead of many, many players and I can't see his Utd goals record getting broken for some time.
Never quite captured the imagination after his 1st couple of seasons.
His achievements though rank way ahead of many, many players and I can't see his Utd goals record getting broken for some time.
Fat Frank.
Always used to call him that myself then I realised I must be obese in comparison.
Rooney never reached the heights of suarez? Thats a joke right? You probably think Gerrard was better than Scholsey too?
As for Henry, Rooney was better than Henry at his peak.