The tempo and type of system and quality of player on show was far better balanced. When yorke And Cole had Neville Irwin Keane scholes beckham and giggs all getting forward, it gives yorke and Cole the help to score those goals. Plus fergie never had United overplaying from the back, it was quick and always looking to hurt teams
Do we have the most overrated collection of attackers in the league?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
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True, I just don't think they ever look to play off eachother. Rooney would rather look wide for a winger to put in a cross, and RVP would rather twist and turn to create space for a shot. Neither of them think "let's play a quick 1-2 in the box" like perhaps Aguero does. I suppose because they lack acceleration they find other ways to create their goals.
I think we have the most disjoint set of attackers, not necessarily overrated. Which is not necessarily a terrible thing if the midfield and wide areas can deliver enough chances for strikers to feed on, but there is a sea of stupidity between our midfield and attack where everything breaks down and the lack of teamwork between the forwards is more apparent.
Mostly this. We should really stop talking as if the quality of players is the sole and only contributor to a team's performance. A lot of people have been doing it last year and the same is happening now. The simplification that football is that black and white and that if you have good players, you will play good football and win games is just idiotic really. Madrid had Kaka, Ronaldo, Alonso, Ramos, Özil, Di Maria with Mourinho at the helm once and won nothing losing by 5 to Barcelona once. If that doesn't tell you that it's not as clear cut, nothing will. That is why our problems are mostly to do with the factors you have mentioned. Tempo, team cohesion, balance, structure among others.
Exactly, look at fergie's 3 greatest teams, 94,99,08, what do all those teams have in common? They were balanced, and they had world class pace, and movement. I don't think the current team has enough of this.
while in 1994 cantona and Hughes were not the quickest, when they have Keane ince kanchelskis giggs and sharpe, especially the latter 3, they could always hurt teams.
1999 United has giggs blomvquest Yorke and Cole's movement and pace, this gives the likes of scholes and beckham the creativity from the Middle and out wide
2008 - with Carrick scholes and giggs has the players that like to play deeper, they had the pace of Ronaldo to hit Teams, along with rooney and especially tevez ability to roam up and down the pitch.
So all 3 of those teams had pace and movement, and they never tried to play it slow. This is why VG like David Moyes, will never get United if this is the vision he has got for United
I can't argue with anything you state there except the last bit. I think teams can change and play with a different identity. Bayern always paid with 2 forwards for example and a more direct playing style. Van Gaal came and then Guardiola and it is a different approach. Barcelona fans like to think that they always played tiki-taka football but the truth is in the '90s, it was a different style of football. That is why I think Van Gaal can change the way we play or at least the way we are accustomed to seeing us play and still be successful. The one thing though is that what he is aiming for is significantly more difficult to achieve than a direct style of football which is why it will test our patience by taking a lot of time to implement.
I really think we got VG at the wrong time, it happens to allot of top managers. In their 60's there is this stubborn mentality, unless they are fergie, I just do not want an arsene wenger stubbornness which is a worry VG is turning into. Even with everyone fit he is still playing a system that does not work
We are too top heavy. We need to swap RVP or Falcao for a pacey forward who can drift out wide.
We have the worst utilised collection of attackers in the world.
This is a slight concern for me to. I say slight because he could easily change this all around by adjusting the formation next game. Ask me again on Sunday
One thing I must say though is you mention 'unless they are Fergie' but even Fergie started to make more 'questionable' decisions in his latter years, You only have to look at the Pogba situation and not buying central midfielders for example. The good thing for him though was Fergie knew the English game like the back of his hand and how to always stay on top regardless.
Agreed 100%. People seem to wonder why we aren't scoring "with that set of forwards", obviously they don't get that the strikers hardly get any service.
They are only overrated if you are still of the opinion they are at their world class form of yesteryear.
Falcao was without a doubt the best number 9 in the world when he was at Porto and Atletico, but the injury and move to Monaco has stunted him and he now looks like its possible he may not regain that form. Therefore if you are still rating him as he was when he was one of if not the best strikers around you are overrating him. Overrated if you still think hes world class.
RVP was one of the worlds top strikers between 2011 and 2013 but has lost a bit of something, be it pace, drive, power or motivation either way he is not at his previous level. Overrated if you still think hes world class.
Mata is a useful player but not multi talented. I never felt he was quite world class even with us when he was a top player, although not far off, and I dont think a lot of you on here particularly rate him that highly anyway so wouldnt say he was overrated.
ADM is a world class player, or at least he was last season, and has the ability that few others posses in your squad, its whether or not he has the motivation and team around him to show it, not overrated.
Rooney Seems to have taken a back seat this season and been a mix of good performances and plenty of anonymous ones. Seems to struggle mentally sometimes, but again I dont think he gets overrated because I dont think anyone actually rates him world class anymore.
Its a tough one because I think many people find it hard to accept that players do decline, its part of the game. The real question is, how many of you think those players ( bar ADM) are world class right now?
Falcao was without a doubt the best number 9 in the world when he was at Porto and Atletico, but the injury and move to Monaco has stunted him and he now looks like its possible he may not regain that form. Therefore if you are still rating him as he was when he was one of if not the best strikers around you are overrating him. Overrated if you still think hes world class.
RVP was one of the worlds top strikers between 2011 and 2013 but has lost a bit of something, be it pace, drive, power or motivation either way he is not at his previous level. Overrated if you still think hes world class.
Mata is a useful player but not multi talented. I never felt he was quite world class even with us when he was a top player, although not far off, and I dont think a lot of you on here particularly rate him that highly anyway so wouldnt say he was overrated.
ADM is a world class player, or at least he was last season, and has the ability that few others posses in your squad, its whether or not he has the motivation and team around him to show it, not overrated.
Rooney Seems to have taken a back seat this season and been a mix of good performances and plenty of anonymous ones. Seems to struggle mentally sometimes, but again I dont think he gets overrated because I dont think anyone actually rates him world class anymore.
Its a tough one because I think many people find it hard to accept that players do decline, its part of the game. The real question is, how many of you think those players ( bar ADM) are world class right now?
It's true that our strikers barely get service, but should they be fully relying on service? Dont we pay them for their individual class? I doubt players like Charlie Austin, Berahino, Ings are playing in front of Iniesta, but they often try to force something out of themselves, pressure defenders, try something. It's something which rarely happens, RVP just turns back and passes the ball backwards. I dont think world class strikers should be fully reliable on service, even without much service, they should at leaat try to force something, ours arent even allowed to manage 2 shots on target ffs.
The service thing is a poor excuse and get out clause imo. Falcao didnt always rely on great service, neither did RVP, I dont think United gave brilliant service in the 12/13 season but he did alright!
Falcao and RVp can't do that, not anymore that is the problem with relying on players whose legs are gone/going, someone else has to do all the running, beat players, offer pace etc but we don't have enough quality players like that. If falcao had wingers crossing the ball into him he would get more goals but he is not a player who he once was and neither is RVP, they are much more limited now than they were two years ago and that isn't good enough in the medium and longer term.
They're not overrated. They were great players. Just have too many miles on the clock. We need some youth and flair in the attack, get some fresh ideas in the final third.
Agree. Which is why I think it'll hurt us if we shell out 40 odd million on Falcao.
I blame the bullshite 3-5-2 system
I was thinking about this yesterday. All of us automatically blame what's behind the strikers if creativity is low, but there's no doubt that we're getting too little from our strikers. You could instantly see the difference when Rvp did play well and the impact a striker who can hold the ball up and contribute with his back to goal, can make. Shame he reverted to being scrappy pretty soon after.
The problem is that we're playing a system that right now takes one man out of midfield or sacrifices a wide player for an extra striker and having no striker in form creates all the more difficulties.
I'd just start Rooney as one of the strikers if I were LVG. At least he's been on his game for most of the season. It would also allow the likes of Di Maria and Herrera to playmake instead which is a win-win IMO.
So you blame the manager then.
Exactly. We've had one striker play at an acceptable level for a handful of games and we instantly looked a much more potent attacking unit. We've been playing with two up top for most of the season. Can you imagine how much better we'd look if they'd both consistently performed at that sort of level? It shouldn't be a big ask either. Even at his best it's not as though RvP has been unplayable, like peak Aguero or Suarez. Just getting the basics right. Really the minimum you should expect from a starting striker at a club with CL aspirations.
There's been a lot of concern about our formation and the lack of service from our creative midfielder and wingbacks but I can't help thinking that the big issue has been consistently playing two strikers that have put in performances from barely adequate to absolutely crap. Is it any wonder we've been struggling for goals?
It's a combination of the players themselves, LvG's selections and the system they're being asked to play. Against S'oton the lack of movement up front was a real worry - and not for the first time this season. This wasn't helped by the fact that our current style of play is so laboured and mechanical. You can see the players cogs whirring whenever they're on the ball. Nothing is coming naturally to them. Whenever we win the ball in a threatening area we seem to do a quick inventory of what is available, stall and then realise that the delayed reaction has ruined the chance of a counter. We're far too ponderous and predictable and we lack the pace to worry teams. Mata looks like he's running through treacle and RVP runs like he's carrying a backpack full of bricks.
We're crying out for pace out wide, which makes LvG's deployment of di Maria as a striker (and refusal to use Januzaj) even more baffling. We need to inject some pace into the side and let RvP and Falcao go. RvP is clearly on the way down and Falcao would need to have an incredible 4 months to suddenly become a £40m striker.
We're crying out for pace out wide, which makes LvG's deployment of di Maria as a striker (and refusal to use Januzaj) even more baffling. We need to inject some pace into the side and let RvP and Falcao go. RvP is clearly on the way down and Falcao would need to have an incredible 4 months to suddenly become a £40m striker.
Although it would piss the other two off (or one of them depending on how we play), rooney up top is for me the way to go. At least as one of the two if we're playing two. You don't need two strikers so focused on making runs in behind all the time anyway. Rooney playing the second striker role seems pretty ideal for one of the two striker slots. LVG said he wasn't convinced by him as a striker. Not sure how the other two have convinced him.
LVG was stubborn at all his previous clubs.
At Barca and Bayern, he got fired due to his stubbornness.
So this is nothing new. This is a personality trait of his, which he has shown in the past.
I think it is a concern, if his stubbornness in his time at United is sticking to 352, it's going to be tough
The problem is they're all quite similar, none have the pace to run in behind defensive lines or beat players 1v1. All of them are essentially penalty box strikers.
No, we have the best attackers in the league feeding off scraps. You have a dynamic inventive midfield and wingers behind them
and they'd score for fun.
and they'd score for fun.
I do at this stage of the season, it's far more difficult to win games if you're team is set up in a defensive formation (stating the obvious)
I wouldn't mind so much if our formation was actually 3-5-2, but for me it looks like we are playing 5-1-2-1-1
I wouldn't mind so much if our formation was actually 3-5-2, but for me it looks like we are playing 5-1-2-1-1
Thats right its a better attack than Aguero, Silva, Navas or Costa, Hazard, Oscar, and the only problem is the service! Thought Mata and ADM were top quality creators? To be fair Young hasnt been that bad this season.
Create a video of missed opportunities and bad misses and our video would be shorter than any team in the top 6. We went on a run of 10-11 games unbeaten and that was down to pure efficiency infront of goal (and a great keeper). So now this leads fans to think unless you have a striker who can pick it up in the centre circle and dance round everyone at Usain Bolt speed they are not a world class striker. Harry Kane cant do this yet is scoring for fun. A poor example for I really cant be bothered going into the obvious here.
No. We're not playing to any of their strengths. We've removed the surprise element of our play. We're playing with no pace and trickery on the wings which is extremely rare in every top team. We're playing 3 strikers together who offer little pace. Our most expensive player isn't playing in the position that seen him get voted into world XI.
If you're talking as a collective, then yeah you have a point based on the performances so far but as individuals? No.
We had trouble accommodating Rooney, RvP and Mata last season. Trying to accommodate them + Falcao, Di Maria is madness. It's even more maddening when you have Ander Herrera sitting on the bench everyday.
The Falcao signing made zero sense in the summer and makes zero sense now, it looks like another favour to Mendes.
To summarise, we've taken every top player we have and decided to play them in a way that is detrimental to each of their individual games. The only person this is seemingly benefitting is Ashley Young.
If you're talking as a collective, then yeah you have a point based on the performances so far but as individuals? No.
We had trouble accommodating Rooney, RvP and Mata last season. Trying to accommodate them + Falcao, Di Maria is madness. It's even more maddening when you have Ander Herrera sitting on the bench everyday.
The Falcao signing made zero sense in the summer and makes zero sense now, it looks like another favour to Mendes.
To summarise, we've taken every top player we have and decided to play them in a way that is detrimental to each of their individual games. The only person this is seemingly benefitting is Ashley Young.
This. It appears injury may force LVG's hand here. With RVP out, he may have to adopt a 4-3-1-2 with Falcao and Rooney up top.
Even most on here agreed plenty of games in that run were either extremely fortunate or draws where 1 or no goals were scored. The front line has nowhere near the cohesion and potency of the top two teams. Some of it may be the system but some of it is also the fact that the players are not as good as they were or aging, and it's not an insult its just the way it is.
Obviously were this 3-4 years ago we would be talking about a horrendously good attacking line up.
I'd like to see them missing glorious chances week after week before I say RVP isnt the same or with plenty of bodies joining him in attack yet he still picks the wrong option. I havent seen neither so its hard to tell here. Due to his age its always the easy option. Giggs was finished at 30 and then he wasnt.
If we must play 3-5-2 then
Herrera - Blind
Di Maria
should be our midfield, no questions asked. Blind is probably our most intelligent player and offers better protection to the defence than our other midfielders, and Herrera offers us that attacking side of things without completely ignoring the defence.
Di Maria should play in the number 10 position as his pace and flair is the best way to link midfield and attack. He also has the creativity that Rooney doesn't have. Mata does too, but using him takes out some of the power and speed on the counter. If we can sign another good midfielder (Tielemans/Strootman/Dybala/Schneiderlin) then we're sorted because, along with Carrick, we'd have plenty if backup and rotational options in midifeld.
Rooney needs to play up front and we need to cancel Falcao's deal at the end of the season and use the money on someone fast and exciting. Aguero would've been perfect here and I'm still not sure why we didn't sign him before. Rooney plus someone like Lacazette would be amazing because Rooney has the power and Lacazette has the pace. And they can both finish. Plus Lacazette is young and Rooney is in his prime so we have long enough to bed in a replacement. RvP will make a good squad player for when we're back in the CL.
The key thing to this is getting the fullbacks working. If we are going 3-5-2 long term then we need to decide soon so Shaw can get used to playing as a wingback. Right now he's a great fullback but not quite so good at wingback. He has potential and all the right attributes to play there, so decide our long term future so we can turn him into a wingback. We also need another RB as Rafael can't stay fit.
In terms of defence, we need two signings to make this 3 at the back work. Smalling is clearly our best CB, and Rojo is very well suited to a back 3. If we bring in a top young defender (Marquinhos/Laporte preferably) then we have a potentially awesome back 3 for years to come. Aside from that, someone cheap and experienced (Vlaar/Reid) who doesn't have to be a starter but can bring some leadership to the dressing room. Then tie De Gea down if course.
Another interesting option is to try and swap Fellaini for Vela. Moyes would surely be up for it if his board let him, and he'd be great for backup/impact sub even if we don't always play wingers. If 3-5-2 is just temporary, then fine. That's great. If we're turning to 4-3-3 then Bale and Depay would be good signings. Maybe Bale could even be used as a wingback.
I don't want 3-5-2 long term, but a realistic team such as
De Gea
Smalling - Laporte - Rojo
Rafael - Herrera - Blind - Shaw
Di Maria
Lacazette - Rooney
with Tielemans on the bench would likely be very, very good and would play some nice football too. The defence is strong and well protected and there is the right balance of creativity and power going forwards. There's also enough back up to keep it up throughout the season. I'd personally be over the moon with that team and it's 100% attainable imo, even more so with CL football.
Herrera - Blind
Di Maria
should be our midfield, no questions asked. Blind is probably our most intelligent player and offers better protection to the defence than our other midfielders, and Herrera offers us that attacking side of things without completely ignoring the defence.
Di Maria should play in the number 10 position as his pace and flair is the best way to link midfield and attack. He also has the creativity that Rooney doesn't have. Mata does too, but using him takes out some of the power and speed on the counter. If we can sign another good midfielder (Tielemans/Strootman/Dybala/Schneiderlin) then we're sorted because, along with Carrick, we'd have plenty if backup and rotational options in midifeld.
Rooney needs to play up front and we need to cancel Falcao's deal at the end of the season and use the money on someone fast and exciting. Aguero would've been perfect here and I'm still not sure why we didn't sign him before. Rooney plus someone like Lacazette would be amazing because Rooney has the power and Lacazette has the pace. And they can both finish. Plus Lacazette is young and Rooney is in his prime so we have long enough to bed in a replacement. RvP will make a good squad player for when we're back in the CL.
The key thing to this is getting the fullbacks working. If we are going 3-5-2 long term then we need to decide soon so Shaw can get used to playing as a wingback. Right now he's a great fullback but not quite so good at wingback. He has potential and all the right attributes to play there, so decide our long term future so we can turn him into a wingback. We also need another RB as Rafael can't stay fit.
In terms of defence, we need two signings to make this 3 at the back work. Smalling is clearly our best CB, and Rojo is very well suited to a back 3. If we bring in a top young defender (Marquinhos/Laporte preferably) then we have a potentially awesome back 3 for years to come. Aside from that, someone cheap and experienced (Vlaar/Reid) who doesn't have to be a starter but can bring some leadership to the dressing room. Then tie De Gea down if course.
Another interesting option is to try and swap Fellaini for Vela. Moyes would surely be up for it if his board let him, and he'd be great for backup/impact sub even if we don't always play wingers. If 3-5-2 is just temporary, then fine. That's great. If we're turning to 4-3-3 then Bale and Depay would be good signings. Maybe Bale could even be used as a wingback.
I don't want 3-5-2 long term, but a realistic team such as
De Gea
Smalling - Laporte - Rojo
Rafael - Herrera - Blind - Shaw
Di Maria
Lacazette - Rooney
with Tielemans on the bench would likely be very, very good and would play some nice football too. The defence is strong and well protected and there is the right balance of creativity and power going forwards. There's also enough back up to keep it up throughout the season. I'd personally be over the moon with that team and it's 100% attainable imo, even more so with CL football.
I said in the other thread, but its high time LVG made some decisions with regard to the "Fantastic Five" - RVP, Falcao, Rooney, Di Maria and Mata.
Every time we try to fit all of them into an XI we inevitably look horrific, and have no actual midfield. The best players dont always make the best team.
In midfield, we have (potentially) Carrick, Blind, Fellaini and Herrera - that is actually a very good group of players with a nice balance to it, and it is from these that we need to be picking for our midfield positions, not the likes of Rooney and Mata.
If it were me, I would be putting Rooney up front as a lone striker; he has done it plenty of times before and scored well with a far inferior "supporting cast" to what we have now. His passing is simply not good enough for midfield. Some folk have often commented with Rooney that as he ages he may drop deeper, I think the opposite is true. The main benefit of having him in midifeld is due to his energy - as he approaches his thirties and his work rate drops a bit, I think he should be playing as a more natural goalscoring forward.
With Rooney up front we can then play some variant of 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1 - whatever you want to call it, that allows us to field an actual midfield as well as some of our attacking midfielders such as Mata or Di Maria (personally I would drop Mata though). We can end up with something like;
---------------------------DDG
---------------------BACK FOUR--------------------
-------Carrick/Fellaini---------------Blind--------------
Januzaj---------------Herrera/Mata--------Di Maria
------------------------Rooney
Whichever way you combine them, if we are not handicapping ourselves by fielding 2 strikers and 3 CBs, you can instantly create a far more balanced looking and dangerous lineup than when basically fielding 5 forwards and 5 defenders.
Every time we try to fit all of them into an XI we inevitably look horrific, and have no actual midfield. The best players dont always make the best team.
In midfield, we have (potentially) Carrick, Blind, Fellaini and Herrera - that is actually a very good group of players with a nice balance to it, and it is from these that we need to be picking for our midfield positions, not the likes of Rooney and Mata.
If it were me, I would be putting Rooney up front as a lone striker; he has done it plenty of times before and scored well with a far inferior "supporting cast" to what we have now. His passing is simply not good enough for midfield. Some folk have often commented with Rooney that as he ages he may drop deeper, I think the opposite is true. The main benefit of having him in midifeld is due to his energy - as he approaches his thirties and his work rate drops a bit, I think he should be playing as a more natural goalscoring forward.
With Rooney up front we can then play some variant of 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1 - whatever you want to call it, that allows us to field an actual midfield as well as some of our attacking midfielders such as Mata or Di Maria (personally I would drop Mata though). We can end up with something like;
---------------------------DDG
---------------------BACK FOUR--------------------
-------Carrick/Fellaini---------------Blind--------------
Januzaj---------------Herrera/Mata--------Di Maria
------------------------Rooney
Whichever way you combine them, if we are not handicapping ourselves by fielding 2 strikers and 3 CBs, you can instantly create a far more balanced looking and dangerous lineup than when basically fielding 5 forwards and 5 defenders.