The stats quoted are wrong. No way does Valencia put in around 30% successful crosses - more like 5% and I'm being kind to him with that assessment.
Do we have unrealistic expectations of what a "good" crosser is?
- Thread starter Brwned
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A dangerous cross creates sense of danger, when the opponent team see a good crosser on the ball, more often they'll be more cautious and try to close him down quickly which creates space for other player, when Valencia have the ball you can see the opponent seems okay to let him have it, they just stay in their position and just close down his left side to let him run to the right side and kick the ball to hit their shin, you're right though sometimes it results in corner though so it's not that bad
To be fair I don't remotely rate Milner either.
But yes, I'm not really interested in comparing chances created from items of luck, like deflections or clearances. I'm interested in chances that are created intentionally from items of skill, like actual crosses.
Also, knowing whether your full back is a good or shit crosser has a huge influence on what players in the middle decide to do. I don't see Pogba or Mkhitaryan bombing forward when Valencia has the ball on the wing, because they know they'd be wasting their time.
The most frustrating are those low crosses. I can't seem to remember a single time he caused any trouble to opposition with that. It might have something to do with the thinking that either get a goal or the ball should go out so he can get back in position. A floated cross can leave the team open to a counter attack. His left footed crosses are actually better.
Um Martial's cross to Pogba that he should've scored from?
Valencia has this trademark low, hard driven in cross but how many times is this actually working ? Yes, when it's driven in like that it only need the merest of touches to divert it goalwards but I can't recall the last goal we got this way.
What's frustrating with Valencia is that he can't seem to make the right choice in when to arrow it in low, when to clip it to the back post or when to just put it right in the mix and clear the first man.
He's incredibly frustrating when you compare him to the quality of crosser we had in previous full backs like Neville and Irwin.
What's frustrating with Valencia is that he can't seem to make the right choice in when to arrow it in low, when to clip it to the back post or when to just put it right in the mix and clear the first man.
He's incredibly frustrating when you compare him to the quality of crosser we had in previous full backs like Neville and Irwin.
Anyone who was lucky enough to see Beckham cross dot ball after dot ball will think our crossing is shit.
I must have imagined all of those times when Valencia was closed down and played it to a man in space nearby. Just yesterday. Leading to the corner for our first goal.
So what you'd want to look at then is either the loosely defined "chances created" or the tightly defined "assists". Would it surprise you to find that...
- Elite fullbacks on average get 3 assists a season, which is what Valencia got last season (and is just 1 less then the best right back in the world, Carvajal)
- Elite fullbacks on average make 1.1 key passes per game, which is exactly how many Valencia made last season
If the premise is that the only way Valencia can create is through crossing, while so many of his competitors have Dani Alves-esque vision and passing, then that would indicate that Valencia is actually a more effective creator from crosses than everyone else. I'd argue Valencia's boring but effective passing is actually more creative than people usually suggest but if we use collective wisdom to guide us here, that's what this is telling us...
I completely agree, I'm not trying to rubbish the entire premise of your thread as you've done good work putting it together and the conversation is interesting.
On your two questions I would say generally the bar for good crosses is right, as football fans we know what a genuinely dangerous ball looks like and we'll give credit to a player who is striking the ball well and getting it into the right areas even if he doesn't get an assist. If a player continually puts good crosses in over a season but somehow gets no assists, maybe we'll look at the duck egg in his assists column with alarm but will then remind ourselves (or be reminded by mates or the caf) that the player has been putting good balls in that the forwards haven't been able to profit from.
Having watched Valencia I don't think we can argue the above applies. We know he's capable of putting good balls in but we've also seen some of his poorer work. Bouncing off the first man's shins and as others have said the hesitation we too often see from Valencia are incredibly frustrating parts of his game. As for his numbers:
Apps/Mins As. KeyP AvgP PS% Crosses
2017/2018 PL 3, 270 - 0.7 65.7 88.8 1
2016/2017 PL 27(1), 2483 3 1.1 48.9 85.8 1.5
2016/2017 EL 8(1), 751 1 1 45 84.2 1.3
2015/2016 EL 0(1), 45 - - 26 73.1 -
2015/2016 CL 2(1), 140 1 0.7 42.7 88.3 1.3
2015/2016 PL 8(6), 855 3 0.5 41.7 88.2 0.6
2014/2015 PL 29(3), 2584 2 0.8 52.3 89.5 0.7
2013/2014 CL 9(1), 759 2 1.1 31.1 79.4 1.1
2013/2014 PL 20(9), 1941 3 0.9 36.3 85.2 0.6
2014 WC 3, 230 - 0.3 28.3 77.6 0.3
2012/2013 CL 2(2), 200 - 0.5 28 83.9 1
2012/2013 PL 24(6), 2212 5 1.4 35.9 84.1 1.3
2011/2012 CL 5, 400 1 1.6 39.2 81.1 1.4
2011/2012 PL 22(5), 2120 13 2.4 44.7 85.6 1.7
2010/2011 CL 5(2), 467 1 1.4 30.6 77.6 1.1
2010/2011 PL 8(2), 741 2 2.5 38 86.1 2.1
2009/2010 CL 6(3), 588 3 1.7 26.6 80.3 1.2
2009/2010 PL 29(5), 2615 7 2.6 33.1 82.9 2.1
Total/Av. 258 19401 47 1.4 40.3 84.8 1.3
Mins: Minutes played
Assists: Total assists
KeyP: Key passes per game
AvgP: Passes per game
PS%: Pass success percentage
Crosses: Crosses per game
they are pretty decent. He started his conversion from an out and out winger to right back in 11/12, when he also had his best season for us going forward with seven goals and 13 assists, and since then he's popped up with a few assists here and there without extensive success. In this article from March we're told Valencia completed 39 successful crosses in the last Premier League season, comfortably the most of any player, but there's no mention of the amount of positions he squandered with poor balls or hesitation/backtracking.
In a roundabout rambling way I'm trying to say Valencia has done well, he's a good option to have both in attack and defence and Mourinho clearly trusts him. In general managers will be happy with fullbacks who get up the pitch and put the ball into decent areas, which by and large Valencia has done. However I think it's fair to say his numbers don't leap out as being anything special and from what we've all seen we know he could improve on his delivery and decision making.
EDIT: The formatting for that table isn't great, hopefully you can follow what I'm trying to show!
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I hear Firmino is one too
What is defined as a successful cross in the OP?
I don't think it's ludicrous to say that Valencia used to be a better crosser and now he's fairly incapable of delivering a good ball. I think that's where our frustration stems from. He actually was a decent/good crosser of the ball when he first came to the club.
I don't think it's ludicrous to say that Valencia used to be a better crosser and now he's fairly incapable of delivering a good ball. I think that's where our frustration stems from. He actually was a decent/good crosser of the ball when he first came to the club.
I don't understand Valencia, he was an actual winger who was VERY good at crossing, he won player of the season here because he set up loads of goals for Rooney.
Top level sport is about fine margins , footballers can all cross a ball , the difference between a successful cross ( a goal ) and an unsuccessful one is negligible, a split second either way & the first man misses it or he doesn't, the striker loses his man or he doesn't.
Under modern rules the keeper is a much stronger favourite for lofty crosses, due to most challenges on the keeper being deemed fouls. In short the odds are against you .
Personally , I think crossing into a prepared defence , and working a situation where your crossing into an unprepared defence is a major factor in cross success. The former is a bit of pot luck, the latter is a genuine opportunity.
Under modern rules the keeper is a much stronger favourite for lofty crosses, due to most challenges on the keeper being deemed fouls. In short the odds are against you .
Personally , I think crossing into a prepared defence , and working a situation where your crossing into an unprepared defence is a major factor in cross success. The former is a bit of pot luck, the latter is a genuine opportunity.
Albrighton is a great crosser
Those stats once again are misleading. Surely most players could ping an accurate cross into the box but realistically how many times is a forward going to score a slow dipping ping without 2 defenders and a keeper competing for it?
A good cross should be measured with accuracy, pace and movement (i.e curler). It's harder to be more accurate when attempting these crosses but one good ball into the box can always be dangerous whereas Tony.V's pings are harmless. KDB is a fine example of how to cross.
A good cross should be measured with accuracy, pace and movement (i.e curler). It's harder to be more accurate when attempting these crosses but one good ball into the box can always be dangerous whereas Tony.V's pings are harmless. KDB is a fine example of how to cross.
This
What? That's not true.
I don't care what the statistics say, I've been watching him for years and he can't cross for shit. He either chips it slowly which is hard to convert because the defenders get too much time to cover, or he absolutely smashes the bollocks out of it so the attackers have no time to react.
He can't seem to just whip a decent ball in to save his life - it's just not in his skill-set.
He's a wonderful full back though and more than happy to have him in the team. It was more of a concern when he was a winger, for me. If we had a proper right winger who crossed the ball this wouldn't be such an issue.
He can't seem to just whip a decent ball in to save his life - it's just not in his skill-set.
He's a wonderful full back though and more than happy to have him in the team. It was more of a concern when he was a winger, for me. If we had a proper right winger who crossed the ball this wouldn't be such an issue.
Valencia doesnt look up before he launches it, his clearances are happens so high up the pitch you guys are getting confused it with crossing.
"the first of his kind, shin buster, no look crosser, non left legger"
Was just thinking the same. Absolute beauty the way it floated in there and found Sturridge's head. Gylfi Sigurdsson also has a great cross on him.
Look at what's actually happening on the pitch rather than stats maybe?
Yeah exactly, that's what I'm saying. It was so incredibly productive, I think he can't help but keep delivering those kind of crosses in the hope it starts to bear that sort of fruit again.
A good crosser is one who varries their delivery according to the situation and consistently delivers a dangerous cross. Either to the man or to a dangerous area. Unfortunately football is currently plagues with too many awful to average crossers of the ball. Valencia currently is in dreadful form when it comes to crossing. His are currently neither varied nor dangerous. And he no longer is evem good at cut backs. Yet what frustrates is he is capable of doing all three facets of wing play to a consistently good level.
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TBF to Evra he wasn't a crosser. He was the master at the cut back pass.
But you can't score headers from drilled low closes. So it's not true that Valencia racked up a tonne of assists with low crosses to Rooney that season and hasn't adapted his game since.
FWIW I think his crossing has been fine under Mourinho, after 2 or 3 seasons where he did seem to run out of ideas. @Brwned is right, people expect too much and all the drama about why we absolutely must buy a new fullback after our most recent game is beyond silly.
I think so, yes. Crossing in general is an just a very low-percentage tactic. Same as corners.
I'd like to know how many fail to beat the first man.
Also, there's no variety in his play. Same shit every time.
Also, there's no variety in his play. Same shit every time.
I think the stats are borderline meaningless and it's nothing to do with expectations. He's just a terrible crosser. The problem's magnified because he's our entire right hand side.
It annoys me because any top level professional footballer should have better delivery than that.
It annoys me because any top level professional footballer should have better delivery than that.
I think it is, bar a few exceptions, like Alves.
Full backs are usually full backs because they're not quite good enough at attacking to be wingers and not quite good enough at defending (or too small) to be center backs.
I mean, just look at Valencia, we only converted him to full back because he completely forgot how to attack anymore.
The stats are useful in tackling the misperception that crosses and corners are an effective route to goal in the elite game. And most fans reckon their own team are shit at corners/crosses/etc because they see all the failed ones, rather than just the successful MotD highlight of the opposition scoring off a cross or corner. But I'm not sure the stats are nuanced enough to say much about the quality of the delivery, which is difficult to measure properly.
I think his crossing improved last season but yesterday he was poor and it reminded me of the Valencia I hated back when he played right wing. He's won me over these past few seasons as a right back but his crossing can still be frustrating, if overstated on here. I basically agree with the OP but I think the stats are useless in this case.
Stats are pointless in this. Mendy put in a great cross that Jesus flashed wide, but he also hit the first defender in another. In the stats these both count the same, an attempted cross that didn't lead to a goal.
You can only judge it by watching really, that's how I know De Bruyne is fantastic at crossing and Navas was dreadful (although their stats probably tell some nonsense story).
You can only judge it by watching really, that's how I know De Bruyne is fantastic at crossing and Navas was dreadful (although their stats probably tell some nonsense story).
I think it's more about the variability of attacks than the individual crosser.
Putting speculative crosses (high or low) into a penalty box packed with defenders is always a gamble. Mostly it amounts to nothing and it gets frustrating after a while. Even teams like Bayern and Real overdid it in a few games in the past, and it looked just as tedious.
So to me the solution is not 'better crosses' as such, but creating better situations for putting in a cross. Being able to open up these static situations with dribblings, shifts from side to side, smart runs and quick short passing in tight spaces. If the defense can be forced to move and adapt, openings will eventually appear, and as a result there might be a free lane for crossing into the box.
Real did that a lot yesterday, Chelsea is quite good at it. United has gotten better at it too, and long-term it surely leads to the question if Valencia is the right player for such a game (I don't think he is).
Putting speculative crosses (high or low) into a penalty box packed with defenders is always a gamble. Mostly it amounts to nothing and it gets frustrating after a while. Even teams like Bayern and Real overdid it in a few games in the past, and it looked just as tedious.
So to me the solution is not 'better crosses' as such, but creating better situations for putting in a cross. Being able to open up these static situations with dribblings, shifts from side to side, smart runs and quick short passing in tight spaces. If the defense can be forced to move and adapt, openings will eventually appear, and as a result there might be a free lane for crossing into the box.
Real did that a lot yesterday, Chelsea is quite good at it. United has gotten better at it too, and long-term it surely leads to the question if Valencia is the right player for such a game (I don't think he is).
David Beckham has spoiled me for life I think
Brwned has a very good point here.
I often find when talking to rival fans about their players almost all complain about delivery from their fullbacks and for some reason its mainly RBs.
Apart from Trippier and Azpilicueta not many first choice right backs in the league are better than Valencia at crossing
I often find when talking to rival fans about their players almost all complain about delivery from their fullbacks and for some reason its mainly RBs.
Apart from Trippier and Azpilicueta not many first choice right backs in the league are better than Valencia at crossing
They don't. That's the weird thing in all of this. The stats tell you what your eyes can confirm - the majority of crosses are unsuccessful, the majority of successful crosses do not lead directly to goals and the level of variation between a "good" crosser and a "bad" crosser in both of those areas is pretty limited.
If you look at the players in that list, is any of it really strange? Walker, Zabaleta, Aurier, Juanfran and Escudero are in the bottom quintile for crossing accuracy, and the eye test would tell you they're not very good. Alves, Rafinha, Piszczek, Guerreiro and Alex Sandro are in the top quntile, and generally speaking most people would agree they're pretty good. Brady is one the most accurate crosser in the league, among the most prolific crossers in the league, and Baines, Blind and Fuchs are in the top 5.
If you were to have asked people for their assessment on the players in the OP, there would be lots of discussion but the broad pattern would come out similarly. Brady, Baines and Fuchs have been talked about as some of the best crossers in the league for the last two seasons. Walker, Zabaleta and Juanfran are widely talked about as simply crap crossers. All it takes is one or two players in a quirky position for people to dismiss the numbers, when the overall pattern is entirely in keeping with general perceptions.
In terms of Navas vs. De Bruyne, the average crossing accuracy for the last four seasons is 39% for de Bruyne vs. 21% for Navas. Last season it was 30% vs. 16%. In other words he's consistently twice as accurate, season after season. You can extrapolate that out further and look at key passes per game, in which case it's 3.6 for de Bruyne vs. 1.7 for Navas over the last four seasons. Or assists per 90 minutes, where it's 0.48 for de Bruyne vs. 0.24 for Navas over the last four seasons.
Your post is the perfect example of the ridiculousness of this discussion. You've explicitly dismissed the figures before even looking at them, despite the fact the numbers confirm exactly what your eyes can tell you.
Speaking of Alves, it's interesting how Brazilians tend to have very good attacking full backs. Marcelo, Roberto Carlos, Maicon (for awhile) are all excellent fullbacks.
Slightly off topic here but I was disappointed we didn't give Varela more of a chance. Rashford got a lot of plaudits and hype for scoring goals so early in his career but I think Varela had a hand in the first couple of his goals. He was a much more effective attacking threat than Valencia has been for a couple of years now.
Another good thread from brwned addressing the hyper reactive majority of users here with rational thought , not that it will make a difference 
Forget crossing stats, it doesn't tell half the story. The stats doesn't tell you how many crosses that hit the defender's shin or the crosses that should have been put in that weren't or the crosses that were put in a bit late or too early. Use your eyes, and you will see how Valencia consistenly gets into good crossing positions and somehow manages to screw it up; he takes a touch when a first time cross could have been better(i doubt he's even capable of putting in a first time cross), hits the first man, overhits or underhits it. His stats are so good, because it doesn't include the ones that hit the first defenders shin, which is the most frustrating, and also low crosses count too, which Valencia are half good at. If we had a crosser at RB, we will be creating a lot of headed chances.
I never use stats when things are clear in my mind. Of course it's a matter of opinion and I can be right just as I can wrong but I'm fairly certain when I say that Valencia isn't a good crosser, he can be a good crosser when he put his mind to it. More often than not he just lazily smashes it.