This is the one disadvantage of having a world class player who gives you his peak years, their world class ability goes but the status remains.
We're having a similar issue with Kante.
We're having a similar issue with Kante.
Does Ole have it in him to drop De Gea for the last 2 PL games?
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This has been his level for two years. What are you on about? This is his level. The stats clearly back this up.
In the last 2 seasons, he has cost us a fair few points. Of course he has helped us gain points too, but so have so many other keepers in the league for their teams.
This nonsense that he is untouchable is the primary reason why we had seen Rooney stay on far longer than he should have. Glad Mourinho did us a favour unlike being a blind bat of a follower like some on here who would rather not make changes in the fear that things "might" become worse. With that attitude we are more likely to falter than improve our situation.
Neil Custis in The Sun (yes, I know) is reporting that Romero will play in final two league games of the season (mind you,The Sun is also reporting that Sanchez is going to City!)
Hope he sticks with him it was only one mistake anyhow.
The Sun - just say no more.
I wouldn't mind Romero starting over De Gea in the last two matches, even if I think De Gea should play them.
However I'm strongly advocating for Romero to start all of the Europa League games - even the final, too.
De Gea should be kicked up the bottom and pegged back to fighting for his spot, because right now it seems like it's guaranteed.
fixed for you
He most probably won't do it but for the next season serious question need to be asked. If he wont be back to form, which I doubt he will, he'll cost us lot of points and we can't afford that.
Knee jerk ? Are you insane ? Do I need to remind you he cost us Top 4 last season and potentially now ? If he’s the best GK at the squad I would prefer to play traffic cone at the goal instead. Narrative my arse, do I need to list his clangers since 2018 WC ?
To at least draw vs. West Ham & Leicester and get into the CL.
That should be the only goal.
No CL and it’s bye bye Sancho and Ole’s job is going to be under enormous pressure going into next season.
Taking him out could well be good for him, stick him back in for the EL and hope he regains his concentration and helps us win that, hell maybe he’s the MOTM in the EL final.
The idea that dropping an underperforming player for 2 games is this huge deal that means he has to leave is over the top rubbish.
How long into the next season would you give him a chance to prove people wrong?
And how many points it would cost us?
I guarantee you that dropping him wouldn't made such a huge crisis you claim it would. Shatters the relationship? Throws him in the papers?
I think he himself is aware of his big mistakes and he wouldn't be surprised if he was dropped.
I’ve been a massive DDG fan since his first match against Citeh in the Community Shield & felt he needed to get dropped that season due to erratic play. I think the same now. Take him out of the spotlight for the last two league games & let Romero play in EL.
I accept that he has dropped from a Best in the world performance to an ok one. I’m just saying that him being ok isn’t going to be the biggest issue for us having dropped points. He’s saved far more than he’s lost us.
Every player makes mistakes De Gea is not making a significant amount of mistakes compared to other GKs he’s been ok. Now I’m not advocating sticking with him forever literally just the next two games then give Romero his run in Europe and bring Henderson in next year for competition.
Its hard to say after X amount of games or mistakes as it’s a terrible way to motivate players by saying after 2 mistakes you’re out. It would depend on training performances as much as anything else. If De Gea hit a rough patch you could bring Henderson in and see how he copes.
So you think that with what the papers are already running with dropping him in the last two games they are not going to create a frenzy over it? Then you are being naive and are predicting the papers be rational and try to calm the situation which they never do. It will be endless droning and speculation to suggest otherwise is sheer nativity and shows a lack of understanding of the media’s role in these issues.
So we shouldn't trop him cause media could make a frenzy over it? What might they say, DDG dropped over bad form? Who cares anyway, only thing we should care are points and with his form he could cost us more points in 2 crucial games in the season.
If he doesn't get dropped we should see what to do next season. It's not just 2 mistakes, he's been making mistakes and having bad games for 2 years now. And we should trust him some more into the next season? We dont see training performances, he could be brilliant in those for all we know but what we do see is his games and those are more and more bad.
But he hasn't the stats back this up. He has lost us more points than he has gained us. In the last 2 years.
I understand Ole wanting to play De Gea, after all it did seem to be a confidence issue and the only way to get through that is to play. For a keeper, all you can do is start them and hope they improve. But it's been 2 years, and the errors are just a part of his game now. I actually think it's becoming even more detrimental to his confidence by playing him in games after he's made a high profile error like the other day. I think Ole needs to take him out the firing line and take the spotlight off him. Romero has been patient and deserves a chance in the league.
That is one of the factors yes. Our best chance of winning is harmony in the team and focus. Dropping De Gea helps neither of those and only adds pressure onto Romero to make no mistake or his head, Ole’s and De Geas will be on the block.
He could also save us some.
Well yes. You can’t just throw Henderson in as number 1 from the get go bear in mind Henderson had a really poor game yesterday too. The sort of performance you’d be calling for De Geas head for!
That’s not true. He has not lost us more points than he has gained. In order for this to be true he would need a negative XG. He does not have this.
I don’t get how posters think Romero should start our EL games but be allowed to play the last 2 PL games. Sure DDG has been error prone recently but he is nowhere near as bad as Romero.
If we just look back to the most recent example, I don’t think Romero could’ve made the saves DDG made against Crystal Palace and that’s why I don’t believe he’s good enough to play against West Ham or Leicester either.
For me, it’s more risky starting Romero. If he makes a mistake against West Ham, it’ll be a tough situation for Ole. He obviously won’t be allowed to play against Leicester then. At which point we’ll go into panic mode and start looking like a circus if we have to bring DDG back for Leicester game.
It all comes down to temperament and having played 400 games for us, I think DDG will have enough will power to bounce back against West Ham and hopefully feel more stable for the Leicester game.
DDG needs to play all or most of our remaining games including EL, so we can fully analyze if he fits Ole’s system or not. We’re in a situation where we have the highest paid goal keeper in the world and one who Ole has publicly backed very strongly. Sure he doesn’t comment on players negatively to the press but he has made some bold statements about DDG and those are not to be taken for granted. Ole will need to be fully convinced by the time the season concludes if DDG needs to go.
The present time will be a true test for DDG. I’m sure all the talk about Henderson is also having an effect on him. He will either come out of this situation stronger and better or cave in to the pressure which makes it easier for us to bring Hendo into the fold earlier.
If we just look back to the most recent example, I don’t think Romero could’ve made the saves DDG made against Crystal Palace and that’s why I don’t believe he’s good enough to play against West Ham or Leicester either.
For me, it’s more risky starting Romero. If he makes a mistake against West Ham, it’ll be a tough situation for Ole. He obviously won’t be allowed to play against Leicester then. At which point we’ll go into panic mode and start looking like a circus if we have to bring DDG back for Leicester game.
It all comes down to temperament and having played 400 games for us, I think DDG will have enough will power to bounce back against West Ham and hopefully feel more stable for the Leicester game.
DDG needs to play all or most of our remaining games including EL, so we can fully analyze if he fits Ole’s system or not. We’re in a situation where we have the highest paid goal keeper in the world and one who Ole has publicly backed very strongly. Sure he doesn’t comment on players negatively to the press but he has made some bold statements about DDG and those are not to be taken for granted. Ole will need to be fully convinced by the time the season concludes if DDG needs to go.
The present time will be a true test for DDG. I’m sure all the talk about Henderson is also having an effect on him. He will either come out of this situation stronger and better or cave in to the pressure which makes it easier for us to bring Hendo into the fold earlier.
Media articles and headlines dont hurt or shouldn't hurt our harmony.
Saying that I dont think Ole will drop him, maybe he shouldn't for the last 2 games but he shouldn't definitely decide that based on media and how they'll spin the whole situation.
He has cost us a lot of points, I dont care for that XG thing one bit, I still watch games and judge them by what I see during those.
You can throw Henderson and trust him just as we trusted our other young players. You need to make a cut somewhere, if De Gea isn't the old one anymore so be it. You can't trust him forever to get back to his best days if that's even possible.
I think he should start Europa because Ole has said that competition is Romero’s earlier in the season. Regardless of what happens in the league it would be unfair to not give Romero those games.
I agree though De Gea should be in goal for PL.
They do, it’s a distraction.
Im glad Ole won’t drop him because it shows he’s got common sense with player management.
You need stats to argue this. Not caring for one of the clearest available indicators is a bit silly really. It’s designed to remove subjectivity of these debates (which everyone hates because facts aren’t as all GKs can be judged based on it is a good thing. Because De Gea hasn’t conceded lots of goals we have the joint 2nd best defensive record. If De Gea was so calamitous we would not have that.
You probably watched the Chelsea game and if that’s your barometer for De Gea it’s far from what he is usually. Recency bias springs to mind.
Ive never claimed De Gea is having a great season but he’s been ok and not a significant issue.
It's not just Chelsea game of course, it's the whole season, whole 2 seasons. Not caring for Xg is not silly actually, XG is just another americanization of this beautiful sport which I dont like to say the least.
He hasnt been ok. He had his issues before but now he's not even making basic saves anymore (from time to time) his other weaknesses are even more exposed. The whole package is not shiny anymore and I'd say his form is a significant issue.
As for the media I think we wont agree on that. If Ole is picking the team based on what will the media say we're in big trouble.
Champions League qualification - as @Regulus Arcturus Black already said. The fallout, post-qualification would be an entirely different kettle of fish, but at least we're then in a position of strength not weakness.
As long as we qualify, I don't care who starts these two games, but if De Gea has one of his 'moments,' or two of them in the same game, or runs them concurrently, which can easily be identified as undeniable contributors to us not qualifying, heads will roll, and it won't just be bigwigs that accounts for. It cannot be played down - these are pivotal games for us, absolutely defining. The pressure on De Gea, should he get the nod, is going to be perhaps the biggest he has ever faced in his career to date, as, coming into these games after utterly calamitous errors is going to have the media on his back, as well as the oppo testing their luck in every which way they can.
Moyes will know De Gea's weaknesses well; bombardment of aerial balls he won't come for allied to his current shot-stopping crisis makes for a nervous 180 minutes unless our attack can keep the ball well away from the backline.
Ole is in a no-win situation in regard to either keeper letting him down, though. De Gea starts and blunders, and the discussion will be around why the hell he kept his place; Romero comes in and lets the side down, and it becomes: 'why didn't he keep faith with De Gea?' But ultimately, it's still his job, and our hopes on the line here. De Gea is a speck of dust by relative contrast.
In an ideal world, he fixes up and all of these discussions are redundant, but you're a braver man than me if you'd bet your house on things panning out that way.
As for selling him. That's not happening. Nobody is coming in for a player on that kind of wage with the faults he has in his game and the age he is. Yes, keepers mature and come into their own at their own pace, but a reflexive keeper like De Gea, even if he was still the same player as a few seasons back, won't have that many miles on his biological clock as history has shown reflexive keepers tend to lose it in their early 30's, unlike your all-rounders or generally masterful ones who have no problem being top class into their late 30's.
Stats can be really useful and if you took the time to understand it you’d see why it’s one of the few very good metrics in football that can really help you analyse what is going on over what your bias may want to see.
The sport can still be fun and enjoyable with stats they just help people back up arguments and at some point using fact over opinion is important. It is not factual to say De Gea has cost us loads of points.
He has made 91 saves and has a 73% save rate. It is impossible for you to be correct that he doesn’t make basic saves as he does this all the time. The difference is the basic saves are never thought of until there is a mistake.
Ole isn’t picking solely based on media but a good manager knows dropping De Gea has wider implications.
Sorry, I dont have bias. If we dont agree which we clearly dont that's ok, that's what forums are for but please dont say I'm biased.
I think De Gea has in fact cost us a lot of points, you dont and that's fair.
As I said I watch actual games and no basing everything on stats is neither fun or enjoyable for me. You might enjoy it and please continue to enjoy it but dont try to convince me it's fun.
73 percent save rate, that info does nothing for me. Especially when he fluffs a save. I dont watch a game in which a keeper makes a huge mistake and then sit and say to myself, that's ok, he still has a positive XG and an above 70 percentage of saves.
What if he starts both games and has 2 more mistakes which ultimately cost us a CL place? I'd say that would have much wider implications, don't you agree?
Everyone has bias conscious or unconscious. It wasn’t mean to be an insult more a generic statement that as football fans we make our minds up and it’s very hard to change them even when things point towards us being wrong.
For example I know statistically De Gea hasn’t been world class this season. But he’s not been poor, hes been ok. Whatever bias I have can be tempered by me using those stats.
I watch the games and just enjoy the games. I only look into stats when debating long term trends with people or to inform my opinions. I’m not saying it’s fun but it’s nice to be informed when debating. Ignorance of fact for me is a real issue when engaging in a debate. An opinion isn’t as helpful as a fact in some cases and opinions without any supportive facts are usually wrong.
The fact he has such a high save rate is one of many factors that have put us into a position to be in the top 4. If De Gea is so terrible why is he saving more than most in the league?
I’m sure Ole said it earlier in the season to keep Romero happy but once covid happened and pressure increased on us to qualify and win trophies, things have changed. Romero was supposed to play FA cup too but clearly there’s a reason Ole preferred DDG.
I would let Romero play the second leg of Round 16, if that. But unfair or not, I think the wages we’re paying DDG, we need to let him play all the remaining games. As I said in my previous post, we need to know for sure if DDG can suit Ole’s system or not before next season. For that we need to test him in the EL too.
I wouldn’t trust Romero one bit if we have to play teams like Wolves & Inter later. He’s been good against the teams we’ve played so far but I wouldn’t bring him back after so long, and that too in EL.
If your supportive fact is a famous XG and a percentage of saves then you're right and all other fans who say he's been poor this season are wrong. Luckily most people dont base their opinion on that. Maybe they're just biased. As you said yourself, you made an opinion and you wont change it.
I havent said he's so terrible or terrible, I said he's not as good anymore and has cost us a lot of points. You cant support your claim that he hasnt with a percentage of saves imo.
Tell me one thing, do you think De Gea is a commanding keeper, in the sense that he is in control of his surroundings? What about high balls or coming of the line? Distrubution?
Would you say that's world class?
He has been poor compared to his previous performances. But that makes him OK when compared to other PL GKs.
I absolutely would change my opinion if someone can show me he’s been anything other than OK or average for a PL keeper this season.
The only metric where he is woefully below others is for his command of the box from crosses where I believe he is 18th in the PL. Yet nobody is using this stat which has surprised me somewhat.
I would call De Gea a reactive keeper. One who looks to prevent the problem once it’s occurred more so than a proactive one. He’s not a sweeper keeper and he’s not someone who comes with as much regularity for Crosses but it’s part of the reason we signed Maguire was to help with this.
His distribution is actually very good for a GK.
Overall I do believe next season is the one we see if he needs replacing and give Henderson a chance to compete but Henderson isn’t a better ball playing GK and on average only stands 0.6m further up the pitch compared to
De Gea so also isn’t a proactive sweeper.
If you want a proactive sweeper, who comes for crosses and is good with their feet who would you suggest we play? Because Romero isn’t that player, De Gea isn’t and nor is Henderson.
It’s also worth noting that our improved defence has led to less shots outside the box which was where De Gea made up a lot of his outstanding saves in his best season so he’s also having less chances to show off his best assets.
In this modern era him being so bad in commanding his box and being only a reactive keeper really stings out. Do we really need an average to ok keeper who doesn't come of his line at all?
Henderson has time on his side and can get only better. Of course maybe he's not all that at all and wont make it at United but deserves a chance.
The answer is that he definitely does have it in him, see Lukaku, Sanchez etc.
However part of management is making the most of things you can’t or perhaps shouldn’t change for the overall benefit of the club.
I.e. we don’t want a player earning ridiculous money completely crushed and sat firmly on the bench for more than one reason.
Not only is it a major waste of wages that could be better spent (that’s before you factor in Sanchez in the same position) but your also left with a player seen as out of favour to potential suitors and therefore with next to no resale value or leverage in negotiation.
It’s a really tricky one and I don’t envy Ole on this.
However part of management is making the most of things you can’t or perhaps shouldn’t change for the overall benefit of the club.
I.e. we don’t want a player earning ridiculous money completely crushed and sat firmly on the bench for more than one reason.
Not only is it a major waste of wages that could be better spent (that’s before you factor in Sanchez in the same position) but your also left with a player seen as out of favour to potential suitors and therefore with next to no resale value or leverage in negotiation.
It’s a really tricky one and I don’t envy Ole on this.
I agree long term De Gea may no longer be the answer if the question is should we have a sweeper keeper? But I’m not sure that is what the club wants or necessarily needs for how we play.
So then if you want a modern keeper who do you suggest as the template?
Which PL keeper would you most like us to have in goal?
“Does Ole have it in him? “
“He is influenced by the media”
feck me. I doubt he gives a shiny shite about the media and “have it in him”? Unreal. The shite some people come out with. I would think Ole has a bit more maturity than those putting this about.
The only concession I would make regarding influence on Ole, is that there could be some input from “above”, wishing to protect their asset - such as it now is.
There is a bit of a dilemma, of course. Personally, I would not trust him for the last two games going on his past form, never mind his current state of mind, which can’t exactly be composed enough to rely on, considering what is at stake.
He has fallen off a cliff and even allowing for the occasional good save, every half-decent keeper makes good saves. There isn’t another keeper in the PL chucking ogs in at the rate he is. Never mind the abysmal distribution and even worse presence in his own 6 yard box, never mind penalty area. I don’t recall Romero ever letting us down and would feel far more relaxed with him in goal. Maybe Henderson next season. - no way does he drop flangers at the rate ddg does, apart from him being far more competent at corners/crosses etc.
“He is influenced by the media”
feck me. I doubt he gives a shiny shite about the media and “have it in him”? Unreal. The shite some people come out with. I would think Ole has a bit more maturity than those putting this about.
The only concession I would make regarding influence on Ole, is that there could be some input from “above”, wishing to protect their asset - such as it now is.
There is a bit of a dilemma, of course. Personally, I would not trust him for the last two games going on his past form, never mind his current state of mind, which can’t exactly be composed enough to rely on, considering what is at stake.
He has fallen off a cliff and even allowing for the occasional good save, every half-decent keeper makes good saves. There isn’t another keeper in the PL chucking ogs in at the rate he is. Never mind the abysmal distribution and even worse presence in his own 6 yard box, never mind penalty area. I don’t recall Romero ever letting us down and would feel far more relaxed with him in goal. Maybe Henderson next season. - no way does he drop flangers at the rate ddg does, apart from him being far more competent at corners/crosses etc.
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And people here are suggesting dropping De Gea won’t be pounced on by the media.
Yes he has it in him but no he won't drop De Gea. Yet.
Next question.
Next question.
Of course they will ask that question (as are we too) but so what? The only thing that matters is 3 points against West Ham.
Anyway, unlike when English, “celebrity” footballers such as Beckham or Rooney were left out of the side, this is hardly going to create a media frenzy.
It doesn't necessarily need to be a sweeper keeper, just a keeper who's not glued to his line. Having that kind of a keeper can only be an advantage to how we play and how we defend.
Ederson and Allison are an example. Maybe they're not as good as prime DDG with saves but they make up for it in general play.
Everything regarding United will be pounced by the media.
If Ole goes for Romero, I think that is a really bold, positive decision.
I'll still be saying that even if Romero makes an error that costs us.
I'll still be saying that even if Romero makes an error that costs us.
I'm not sure dropping De Gea is the right way forward. We are stuck with him for the next 5 years, is damaging his confidence going to help? I dunno!
Is constantly letting him cost us goals the way forward??
If the answer isn`t yes then re-evaluate your stance.
We didn`t put up with Rooney when it was clear he was done same with Alexis a decision with De Gea has to be made