Good post. These families have waited far too long for answers. It's a fecking disgrace.
Let's see it all in the cold light of day.
Let's see it all in the cold light of day.
e-petition to release the govt Hillsborough files
- Thread starter Badunk
- Start date
That rant by the retired judge in the last page is beyond stupid. The Bradford situation was nothing like Hillsborough.
Did the papers/police/govt/cabinet all do their utmost to hide/lie and then manipulate the facts in the Bradford fires?
You'd expect some bum off the street to try and make that comparison, not someone as well educated and reasoned(well apparently not) as a Judge.
Did the papers/police/govt/cabinet all do their utmost to hide/lie and then manipulate the facts in the Bradford fires?
You'd expect some bum off the street to try and make that comparison, not someone as well educated and reasoned(well apparently not) as a Judge.
Actually yes, the situation at Bradford was very similar.
The club had locked fire escapes and failed to maintain a ground that was fit for purpose. There was completely inadequate safety procedures in place, and more emphasis was put on making money and stopping crowd trouble than making sure the people who went into the ground were safe.
Granted there wasn't the monumental cover up that we've seen at Hillsborough, but the essence of what the judge was saying is that the lessons that should have been learned after Bradford were not learned, and despite an in depth enquiry at Valley Parade which said grounds were wholly unfit and unsafe, nothing was done until after the Taylor Report.
If the recommendations of the Popplewell report had been taken into full account Hillsborough may never have happened.
Link?
This is what he said
He is accusing the Liverpool fans of making up conspiracy theories(now we know they love a good conspiracy) but in this case, they aren't quite making it up are they?
He says...they've demanded endless inquiries, again of course they have, 22 years on, the truth still isn't out.
He says, they hillsborough campaigners need to learn a lesson from the Bradford victims, in terms of how they organized a compensation scheme, and moved on. I'm sure the families do want to move on, but again it's not unreasonable for them to know what they are moving on from, is it?
His words lack sensitivity imo.
Exactly.
The reason why the bereaved voiced outrage is because what happened during and after the disaster was outrageous. Little dignity was afforded them or their loved ones; the courage of those who campaigned stands in stark contrast to the cowardice of those who lied.
Just got in from work/gym and I believe there's been a question asked by Steve Rotherham in the House. Asked Cameron to acknowledge there'd been a cover up, the families have waited too long, those responsible should be brought to book etc. Cameron dodged it, saying the govt regretted what happened and that they are happy to release all relevant documents.
Alison McGovern delivered a very emotional speech at around 20.48. I dare you not to have tears in your eyes.
You'd be hard-pressed to find a mention of this in the press (I read about it on a football forum). Curiously enough, there's been little mention of Kelvin MacKenzie either, despite his name & activities being mentioned countless times during the debate. I do hope that the press is not closing ranks and protecting one of their own...
Petition to force the Sun newspaper to release its Hillsborough "The Truth" sources and documents - e-petitions
Almost 20,000 have signed now.
Would my signature be worth any less if I weren't a Brit?
I've just been reading the Bluemoon thread on this. They do have some knobends making ill-informed, crass comments, but it's worth noting that posters like Ricster shine through with the use of actual facts and not anti-scouse bullshit.
Be warned, though, that the pictures are very upsetting. But I think we should all view them all the same.
Bluemoon-MCFC: Manchester City, Man City • View topic - Hillsborough on Talksport
Be warned, though, that the pictures are very upsetting. But I think we should all view them all the same.
Bluemoon-MCFC: Manchester City, Man City • View topic - Hillsborough on Talksport
Yeah man, it only counts as half a vote - same as myself bein Irish. Pretend you have a twin tho - something like "Bitchcocker" & vote for him, that way you get your full vote!
Those pictures are awful. I can't even begin to imagine the sheer horror those poor people went through, the fear they must have felt at the time.
God bless every single one of them
Just look at the ages of the fans who died. You can understand why so many Liverpool fans despise the media now (especially the Sky/Murdoch connection).
Jack Alfred Anderson, 62
Colin Mark Ashcroft, 19, student
James Gary Aspinall, 18
Kester Roger Marcus Ball, 16, student
Gerard Baron Snr, 67
Simon Bell, 17
Barry Sidney Bennett, 26
David John Benson, 22
David William Birtle, 22
Tony Bland, 22
Paul David Brady, 21
Andrew Mark Brookes, 26
Carl Brown, 18
Steven Brown, 25
Henry Thomas Burke, 47
Peter Andrew Burkett , 24
Paul William Carlile, 19
Raymond Thomas Chapman , 50
Gary Christopher Church, 19
Joseph Clark, 29
Paul Clark, 18
Gary Collins, 22
Stephen Paul Copoc, 20
Tracey Elizabeth Cox, 23
James Philip Delaney, 19
Christopher Barry Devonside, 18
Christopher Edwards, 29
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons, 34
Steve Fox, 21
Jon-Paul Gilhooley, 10
Barry Glover, 27
Ian Thomas Glover, 20
Derrick George Godwin, 24
Roy Harry Hamilton, 34
Philip Hammond, 14
Eric Hankin, 33
Gary Harrison, 27
Stephen Francis Harrison, 31
Peter Andrew Harrison, 15
David Hawley, 39
James Robert Hennessy, 29
Paul Anthony Hewitson, 26
Carl Hewitt, 17
Nick Hewitt, 16
Sarah Louise Hicks, 19
Victoria Jane Hicks, 15
Gordon Rodney Horn, 20
Arthur Horrocks, 41
Thomas Howard, 39
Tommy Anthony Howard, 14
Eric George Hughes, 42
Alan Johnston, 29
Christine Anne Jones, 27
Gary Philip Jones, 18
Richard Jones, 25
Nicholas Peter Joynes, 27
Anthony Peter Kelly, 29
Michael Kelly, 38
Carl David Lewis, 18
David William Mather, 19
Brian Christopher Matthews, 38
Francis Joseph McAllister, 27
John McBrien, 18
Marian Hazel McCabe, 21
Joe McCarthy, 21
Peter McDonnell, 21
Alan McGlone, 28
Keith McGrath, 17
Paul Brian Murray, 14
Lee Nicol, 14
Stephen Francis O'Neill, 17
Jonathon Owens, 18
William Roy Pemberton, 23
Carl Rimmer, 21
Dave Rimmer, 38
Graham John Roberts, 24
Steven Joseph Robinson, 17
Henry Charles Rogers, 17
Andrew Sefton, 23
Inger Shah, 38
Paula Ann Smith, 26
Adam Edward Spearritt, 14
Philip John Steele, 15
David Leonard Thomas, 23
Pat Thompson, 35
Peter Reuben Thompson, 30
Stuart Thompson, 17
Peter Francis Tootle, 21
Christopher James Traynor, 26
Martin Kevin Traynor, 16
Kevin Tyrrell, 15
Colin Wafer, 19
Ian David Whelan, 19
Martin Kenneth Wild, 29
Kevin Daniel Williams, 15
Graham John Wright, 17
Jack Alfred Anderson, 62
Colin Mark Ashcroft, 19, student
James Gary Aspinall, 18
Kester Roger Marcus Ball, 16, student
Gerard Baron Snr, 67
Simon Bell, 17
Barry Sidney Bennett, 26
David John Benson, 22
David William Birtle, 22
Tony Bland, 22
Paul David Brady, 21
Andrew Mark Brookes, 26
Carl Brown, 18
Steven Brown, 25
Henry Thomas Burke, 47
Peter Andrew Burkett , 24
Paul William Carlile, 19
Raymond Thomas Chapman , 50
Gary Christopher Church, 19
Joseph Clark, 29
Paul Clark, 18
Gary Collins, 22
Stephen Paul Copoc, 20
Tracey Elizabeth Cox, 23
James Philip Delaney, 19
Christopher Barry Devonside, 18
Christopher Edwards, 29
Vincent Michael Fitzsimmons, 34
Steve Fox, 21
Jon-Paul Gilhooley, 10
Barry Glover, 27
Ian Thomas Glover, 20
Derrick George Godwin, 24
Roy Harry Hamilton, 34
Philip Hammond, 14
Eric Hankin, 33
Gary Harrison, 27
Stephen Francis Harrison, 31
Peter Andrew Harrison, 15
David Hawley, 39
James Robert Hennessy, 29
Paul Anthony Hewitson, 26
Carl Hewitt, 17
Nick Hewitt, 16
Sarah Louise Hicks, 19
Victoria Jane Hicks, 15
Gordon Rodney Horn, 20
Arthur Horrocks, 41
Thomas Howard, 39
Tommy Anthony Howard, 14
Eric George Hughes, 42
Alan Johnston, 29
Christine Anne Jones, 27
Gary Philip Jones, 18
Richard Jones, 25
Nicholas Peter Joynes, 27
Anthony Peter Kelly, 29
Michael Kelly, 38
Carl David Lewis, 18
David William Mather, 19
Brian Christopher Matthews, 38
Francis Joseph McAllister, 27
John McBrien, 18
Marian Hazel McCabe, 21
Joe McCarthy, 21
Peter McDonnell, 21
Alan McGlone, 28
Keith McGrath, 17
Paul Brian Murray, 14
Lee Nicol, 14
Stephen Francis O'Neill, 17
Jonathon Owens, 18
William Roy Pemberton, 23
Carl Rimmer, 21
Dave Rimmer, 38
Graham John Roberts, 24
Steven Joseph Robinson, 17
Henry Charles Rogers, 17
Andrew Sefton, 23
Inger Shah, 38
Paula Ann Smith, 26
Adam Edward Spearritt, 14
Philip John Steele, 15
David Leonard Thomas, 23
Pat Thompson, 35
Peter Reuben Thompson, 30
Stuart Thompson, 17
Peter Francis Tootle, 21
Christopher James Traynor, 26
Martin Kevin Traynor, 16
Kevin Tyrrell, 15
Colin Wafer, 19
Ian David Whelan, 19
Martin Kenneth Wild, 29
Kevin Daniel Williams, 15
Graham John Wright, 17
The Scum, to be fair.
The real truth will follow
Still makes me so incredibly furious to see that after all these years.
This is such a brilliant thread, Badunk.
We all need to be reminded about the sheer magnitude of The Scums horrible victim-blaming. See the pictures again, see the names of the dead, see that nauseating front page.
Appreciation to RedCafe over their Hillsborough Thread
I had to find it myself. Fat help the rest of you lot are.
If there's any rawk people reading this, aren't you a bit worried now that the Tories are going to have all the incriminating stuff removed and replaced with lies that make them look good/not as bad? Getting these files might still not lead to the truth
feck me, I always knew they had some utter cnuts in their support, but even I didnt expect to see half the drivel they are coming out with.
This is just unreal
I don't even know where to start with ill informed cnuts like this..
Its fecking cnuts like him that have lived of the shit that the sun printed and think that its gospel when everyone with half a brain can see the real truth.
Great posts Fred/Badunk.
About time this is brought to light.
About time this is brought to light.
Sadly, I doubt they'll get anything that incriminates Maggie.
I couldn't sign it as I'm a foreigner (it has been posted before), but I've been following the debate and obviously want the truth to come out as everyone else should. Good thread.
Jesus, those photos are absolutely harrowing. There's nothing that would make me want to let the search for truth go if it was someone I cared for that went through that, no matter how many years it took. Hopefully the families will finally get some closure now all these files are to be released.
I'm Irish but I figured out a way of signing it. Just pretend you're British & google a company in any part of the UK to obtain the address & postcode. Use the address or something similar, but use the exact postcode when entering your details & thats you sorted. You'll then get an email which you'll have to click on the link they send you. Bobs yer uncle!
This is great news. That fecker should be locked in a room with the families and asked to account for his actions. I reckon it would break all PPV records. I'd gladly pay £20 to see him squirm.
Hehe, that's a way to do it. I figured that lying in an official petition wasn't on, but I guess they won't check all 100-and-whatnot people who have signed
Bradford fire survivor attacks judge over Hillsborough comments
• Criticism of Hillsborough families branded 'disgraceful'
• Retired judge had suggested that they should move on
A survivor of the 1985 fire at Bradford City in which 56 people died has profoundly criticised the judge who conducted the official inquiry into that disaster and who this week unfavourably compared the response of families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster to those of Bradford.
Mr Justice Popplewell said in a letter to The Times that the Hillsborough families are "harbouring conspiracy theories'" rather than behaving with "quiet dignity and great courage" like the Bradford families did.
Martin Fletcher was 12 when he emerged alive from Valley Parade's inferno, but his father John, older brother Andrew, grandfather Eddie and uncle Peter, with whom he had been attending the Third Division match between Bradford City and Lincoln City, all died. He was also at the FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough four years later, at which 96 Liverpool supporters died.
"For Popplewell to say that the Hillsborough families are 'harbouring conspiracy theories' while the Bradford families 'organised a sensible compensation scheme and moved on,' is an absolute travesty of the truth and a disgrace," Fletcher said.
"I have many unanswered questions still about the fire in which four of my family died, as does my mother. Popplewell's report was nowhere close to the quality of Lord Justice Taylor's report after Hillsborough, and since reading it as an adult I have always been very disappointed in it and considered it a poor piece of work.
"Rather than lecture the Hillsborough families not to ask questions, the judge should ask himself why, after a disaster caused by a negligent approach to safety at football, despite his report, standards in football were allowed to remain so lamentably poor that another disaster happened at Hillsborough just four years later."
Fletcher, now an accountant, also wholly rejected Popplewell's assertion that "a sensible compensation scheme" was organised after Bradford. In fact, there was a charitable disaster appeal, no organised compensation scheme, and his mother, Susan, took a negligence action, which she had to fund herself, against the club and Yorkshire County Council, for its safety oversight of Valley Parade.
In the high court, both were found to have been negligent in allowing litter to build up over many years under the void of the club's wooden main stand, and to have done nothing to clear it despite explicit written warnings that it was a fire risk. Two years later, the club was found two-thirds liable, the council one third.
Popplewell, in his report, wrote that his task was "not to allocate blame," and he was sympathetic to the club, saying that lower division football was "run on shoestring".
That season Bradford City, owned by the motor trade entrepreneur Jack Tordoff and chairman Stafford Heginbotham, fielded a side good enough to win the Third Division championship, while doing little safety or maintenance work on the ground.
After the fire, Valley Parade was rebuilt with public grants and insurance money, and Popplewell himself returned to Bradford to open it. Shortly afterwards, Heginbotham and Tordoff sold their shares in the club at a profit.
Fletcher has spent years in his 20s and 30s trying to understand the disaster, including a detailed reading of Popplewell's report and the evidence given to the inquiry, which has left him deeply dissatisfied.
The judge held his inquiry just over three weeks after the fire, and it lasted little more than a week. After Hillsborough, the West Midlands police force was appointed to independently investigate, three months were spent gathering evidence and Taylor heard arguments in detail in his inquiry over several weeks.
Taylor's report clearly identified who was to blame and how the disaster happened, which the bereaved Hillsborough families are able to point to 22 years later, in their fight to understand why nobody in authority took responsibility, with South Yorkshire police instead blaming the disaster on supporters.
Fletcher argues Popplewell's inquiry was too quick, he believes there should have been an independent investigating police force brought in, and he is frustrated by what he feels is Popplewell's failure to allocate responsibility clearly.
"He stated that a discarded cigarette was the likely cause, but never identified the smoker or detailed the circumstances in which that happened. Nor did he properly expose and allocate blame for the scale of negligence which lay behind the disaster."
Fletcher, who had family in Bradford but grew up in Nottingham, was in the Forest end at Hillsborough.
"I cried after that, in my mother's car, asking why, as people had survived at Bradford because there were no fences in front of the main stand, there were still fences up at football grounds four years later. Popplewell made precious few useful safety recommendations, and instead, soon after that, football supporters were going to have an identity card-type scheme imposed on them.
"Taylor, after Hillsborough, emphatically insisted that football must be forced by legislation wholly to improve its safety culture. Popplewell did no such thing after Bradford, and when he talks about 'moving on,' yes, supporters moved on to another disaster, in which 96 people were killed.
"He should be asking himself some searching questions, rather than lecture the families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster that they should just accept it.
"In all these years, Popplewell has never spoken to me or my mother, who lost four family members. He should not presume to speak on our behalf. Perhaps he should act with 'quiet dignity' himself."
Bradford fire survivor attacks judge over Hillsborough comments | Football | The Guardian
• Criticism of Hillsborough families branded 'disgraceful'
• Retired judge had suggested that they should move on
A survivor of the 1985 fire at Bradford City in which 56 people died has profoundly criticised the judge who conducted the official inquiry into that disaster and who this week unfavourably compared the response of families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster to those of Bradford.
Mr Justice Popplewell said in a letter to The Times that the Hillsborough families are "harbouring conspiracy theories'" rather than behaving with "quiet dignity and great courage" like the Bradford families did.
Martin Fletcher was 12 when he emerged alive from Valley Parade's inferno, but his father John, older brother Andrew, grandfather Eddie and uncle Peter, with whom he had been attending the Third Division match between Bradford City and Lincoln City, all died. He was also at the FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough four years later, at which 96 Liverpool supporters died.
"For Popplewell to say that the Hillsborough families are 'harbouring conspiracy theories' while the Bradford families 'organised a sensible compensation scheme and moved on,' is an absolute travesty of the truth and a disgrace," Fletcher said.
"I have many unanswered questions still about the fire in which four of my family died, as does my mother. Popplewell's report was nowhere close to the quality of Lord Justice Taylor's report after Hillsborough, and since reading it as an adult I have always been very disappointed in it and considered it a poor piece of work.
"Rather than lecture the Hillsborough families not to ask questions, the judge should ask himself why, after a disaster caused by a negligent approach to safety at football, despite his report, standards in football were allowed to remain so lamentably poor that another disaster happened at Hillsborough just four years later."
Fletcher, now an accountant, also wholly rejected Popplewell's assertion that "a sensible compensation scheme" was organised after Bradford. In fact, there was a charitable disaster appeal, no organised compensation scheme, and his mother, Susan, took a negligence action, which she had to fund herself, against the club and Yorkshire County Council, for its safety oversight of Valley Parade.
In the high court, both were found to have been negligent in allowing litter to build up over many years under the void of the club's wooden main stand, and to have done nothing to clear it despite explicit written warnings that it was a fire risk. Two years later, the club was found two-thirds liable, the council one third.
Popplewell, in his report, wrote that his task was "not to allocate blame," and he was sympathetic to the club, saying that lower division football was "run on shoestring".
That season Bradford City, owned by the motor trade entrepreneur Jack Tordoff and chairman Stafford Heginbotham, fielded a side good enough to win the Third Division championship, while doing little safety or maintenance work on the ground.
After the fire, Valley Parade was rebuilt with public grants and insurance money, and Popplewell himself returned to Bradford to open it. Shortly afterwards, Heginbotham and Tordoff sold their shares in the club at a profit.
Fletcher has spent years in his 20s and 30s trying to understand the disaster, including a detailed reading of Popplewell's report and the evidence given to the inquiry, which has left him deeply dissatisfied.
The judge held his inquiry just over three weeks after the fire, and it lasted little more than a week. After Hillsborough, the West Midlands police force was appointed to independently investigate, three months were spent gathering evidence and Taylor heard arguments in detail in his inquiry over several weeks.
Taylor's report clearly identified who was to blame and how the disaster happened, which the bereaved Hillsborough families are able to point to 22 years later, in their fight to understand why nobody in authority took responsibility, with South Yorkshire police instead blaming the disaster on supporters.
Fletcher argues Popplewell's inquiry was too quick, he believes there should have been an independent investigating police force brought in, and he is frustrated by what he feels is Popplewell's failure to allocate responsibility clearly.
"He stated that a discarded cigarette was the likely cause, but never identified the smoker or detailed the circumstances in which that happened. Nor did he properly expose and allocate blame for the scale of negligence which lay behind the disaster."
Fletcher, who had family in Bradford but grew up in Nottingham, was in the Forest end at Hillsborough.
"I cried after that, in my mother's car, asking why, as people had survived at Bradford because there were no fences in front of the main stand, there were still fences up at football grounds four years later. Popplewell made precious few useful safety recommendations, and instead, soon after that, football supporters were going to have an identity card-type scheme imposed on them.
"Taylor, after Hillsborough, emphatically insisted that football must be forced by legislation wholly to improve its safety culture. Popplewell did no such thing after Bradford, and when he talks about 'moving on,' yes, supporters moved on to another disaster, in which 96 people were killed.
"He should be asking himself some searching questions, rather than lecture the families bereaved by the Hillsborough disaster that they should just accept it.
"In all these years, Popplewell has never spoken to me or my mother, who lost four family members. He should not presume to speak on our behalf. Perhaps he should act with 'quiet dignity' himself."
Bradford fire survivor attacks judge over Hillsborough comments | Football | The Guardian
Yeah big time man - feck THE GOVERNMENTHehe, that's a way to do it. I figured that lying in an official petition wasn't on, but I guess they won't check all 100-and-whatnot people who have signed
Tremendous response from Mr Fletcher.
Thanks for that article. Shocking really. What an insensitive uber thundercnut that judge is.
'The House of Commons debate on the 1989 tragedy, in which 96 Liverpool fans died, was a breakthrough for everyone who has campaigned so hard for justice for the past two decades.
Led by Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham, politicians from all political parties united on an emotional evening to secure the full and uncensored disclosure of all government documents related to the disaster.
'Hillsborough: The Parliamentary Debate', LFC TV's one-hour special, goes behind the scenes at Westminster to put the evening's events into context, relive the emotional speeches and catch the response of some of the families at the end of a momentous day in parliament.
The show will air for the first time tonight on LFC TV at 6.30pm tonight - repeated at 11pm - as well as being available to watch for free on LFC TV Online later this evening.
You can also catch it on LFC TV on Friday, October 21 at 7.30pm and Saturday, October 22 at 2pm.'
6.30pm: The Hillsborough debate - Liverpool FC
Led by Steve Rotheram and Andy Burnham, politicians from all political parties united on an emotional evening to secure the full and uncensored disclosure of all government documents related to the disaster.
'Hillsborough: The Parliamentary Debate', LFC TV's one-hour special, goes behind the scenes at Westminster to put the evening's events into context, relive the emotional speeches and catch the response of some of the families at the end of a momentous day in parliament.
The show will air for the first time tonight on LFC TV at 6.30pm tonight - repeated at 11pm - as well as being available to watch for free on LFC TV Online later this evening.
You can also catch it on LFC TV on Friday, October 21 at 7.30pm and Saturday, October 22 at 2pm.'
6.30pm: The Hillsborough debate - Liverpool FC
SteveRotheramMP Steve Rotheram
I've been appointed to serve on Parliaments Culture, Media & Sport Select Committee. Mr MacKenzie has been invited to give evidence!
Meanwhile...Fourty-four MPs have signed a motion calling on media outlets to cease employing Kelvin MacKenzie.
I've been appointed to serve on Parliaments Culture, Media & Sport Select Committee. Mr MacKenzie has been invited to give evidence!
Meanwhile...Fourty-four MPs have signed a motion calling on media outlets to cease employing Kelvin MacKenzie.
Bump