elmo
Can never have too many Eevees
Storeytime's far better.What are xPTS? is that like some storeytime thing?
Storeytime's far better.What are xPTS? is that like some storeytime thing?
It’s just the right manager we need then, it’s a matter of where do we get him?That's more of the intention no?
Possession based football can still be entertaining, it's just up to the coach and how the players implement it.
Expected points based on expected goals in games. It doesn't tell you very much how good a team is since defending a lead count as negative since you allow chances and creates few yourself.What are xPTS? is that like some storeytime thing?
Started the sadly very badly. Improving all the time. Exactly what we should have hoped for under the circumstancesWould help if we weren't on course for another pathetic season scoring less than 60 league goals. And that's despite Solskjaer's constant stream of "United way" propaganda.
And this started in response to a poster who said "For the first time in a while I dont think we need major surgery to be successful"And my point is that the overall quality of the team is just a minor improvement over last year.
God I really do hate those "expected" stats. They're completely devoid of in game context.Expected points based on expected goals in games. It doesn't tell you very much how good a team is since defending a lead count as negative since you allow chances and creates few yourself.
but it was ATTACKING football!That's what I'm saying. Fans hated his football because it was pretty boring, if he was trying to be entertaining he failed miserably and the end result was crap, dull football, so fans hated what he offered.
I think there are 3 pillars to what I would expect from a high-quality manager:
- Delivering good results: Results haven't been great. Simple as that. There's an argument around Injuries and buying Bruno earlier, but the fact is we've lost/drawn a fair number of games against smaller teams that we really should have the quality to put away. However, if he gets CL football (and potentially a cup in addition), that's a successful transition season for me
- Developing a high-quality squad: Ole has done really well on this count and who ever takes up this squad, will have a strong foundation to build upon. This wasn't an easy task, and he's generally bought and sold very well with a long-term focus. He's also done a great job of giving chances to our academy players, some of whom have established themselves as first-team squad members
- Instituting a clear playing philosophy: This is where my main doubts lie with Ole. Look at the top managers in the world; they all have a clear playing philosophy that's actively innovating on how tactics can be applied. For Pep it's a mix of positioning fluidity and tactical fouling/pressing, for Klopp it's vertical transitions and gegenpressing, for Poch it's pressing and physicality in a counter-attacking focus and for Conte it's congesting midfield and using the spare CB to direct wing overloads. That's why someone like Nagelsmann is interesting, with his push to integrate perspective on "individual plays" from Rugby and understand how that can be applied in terms of footballing tactics. In general, he seems better at negating the other team's tactics (e.g., City, Liverpool, Chelsea) versus proactively imprinting his style of play. That's not to say it's the be-all and end-all, but it's definitely something he needs to show more of.
Obviously Ole has made it clear he expects us to be a counter-attacking team that breaks with pace, but beyond that it's unclear if he actually has a system / playing philosophy beyond platitudes to the Manchester United way under Fergie. I love the man, but would love to see more to convince in the long term. Particularly since a lot of special coaches are available now (Poch, Nagelsmann), that might not be the case in a year or two similar to how we missed the Klopp/Pep boat and settled for LVG.
That we still need loads of improvements at 5 positions in our starting 11 compared to 7 from Jose's time.And this started in response to a poster who said "For the first time in a while I dont think we need major surgery to be successful"
I would agree with him and amn't sure what your point is in that context to be honest.
It was as far away from attaking as it can get. His style was about controlling the ball in his own half for the majority of the game to decrease attacks on us and waiting for a chance or 2 to get and score. Very, very defensive and it showed in our overall attacking stats in second season (49 goals in 38 matches of the league).but it was ATTACKING football!
Can't fault his interviews though, those were hilarious.It was as far away from attaking as it can get. His style was about controlling the ball in his own half for the majority of the game to decrease attacks on us and waiting for a chance or 2 to get and score. Very, very defensive and it showed in our overall attacking stats in second season (49 goals in 38 matches of the league).
LVG put on a decent first season overall and there were many positives to take on at this time and I was totally behind him back then but he fecked it up completely in his second season, fecked the squad and style of play. As the time went on I hated everything about him.
Absolutely spot on post.Rubbish. We’ve been without key players the entire season, what ‘individual brilliance’ are you speaking of? Martial? Ffs.
We’ve ground out results to get where we are, we’ve had poor spells which are directly affected by the injuries.
Recruitement is spot on and the football is better than it’s been since SAF. Yes better than Mourinho, yes better than LVG and yes better than Moyes (obviously.)
Whilst youth has been brought into the mix soundly, in keeping with our club philosophy.
It’s not even a defence of Ole, it’s a defence of the obvious.
Who tha feck would you sack Ole for right now?
It’s the first time since SAF that we can see the direction the club is headed, no short term fixes, long term planning and sound recruitment.
I’m sure some people just enjoy the feckin carousel of managers and the drama of it all.
We’ve been a feckin laughing stock these last 6 years, make no mistake, a joke.
Im fecked if I’m going to sack the one guy who at least is trying to put the pieces together and push the club in the right direction.
Put it this way, do you think Sancho would even consider moving to United if it wasn’t for Ole and what he represents as a manager who backs youth but also a manager who’s turning this juggernaut of a club out of the mire? Not a chance.
We’ve beaten the best clubs in the land, it’s consistency we’ve lacked, through additional talented recruitment that will follow.
I think he gets another season, then see where we are..But that's exactly what this is. Another thread to bash Ole.
As you said, Ole is building a strong foundation. He's promoting youth, he's trying to implement an attacking, pressing style that most of us want. I agree it's taking time but it was always going to take a long time.
And let's face it we aren't out of the race for top four yet. So long as we are making progress, no matter how slow, I'm loathed to destroy that by bringing in a new 'big name' manager who will have his own idea's and philosophy.
No matter what manager comes in, there will be a period where they are trying to implement their philosophy, a 'transition period' that people hate the sound of. Well we are coming out the arse end of Ole's transition period, let's see what the guy can do with a fit and firing team that has been improved in many areas.
Threads like this, when they are unwarranted, serve nothing but to bring the mood of the forum down and perpetuate the constant need to swap manager.
Overall they can be a good indicator of a team's form and if they are over-performing or under-performing.God I really do hate those "expected" stats. They're completely devoid of in game context.
Totally agree. If United reach fifth this season (regardless of whether that'll give access to the CL), then Ole has done a good job this season, given the circumstances.I don't like comparing previous points totals. We won the league once with 78. If we get one of our lower points totals but top 4 what's the issue? What if we come 5th and win the cup.
In short - total amount of expected points based on the amount and quality chances you create/your opponent creates throughout the season.What are xPTS? is that like some storeytime thing?
They are fun to look at, but do not tell very much what is going on.God I really do hate those "expected" stats. They're completely devoid of in game context.
It's a problem I agree. But it's a singular problem. We've had years of problems on multiple fronts. It's not as if Ole isn't trying to fix that issue, the signing of Sancho I feel is driven partly by this issue, having Pogba and Bruno in the team at the same time will also improve this. But none of this matters because there is a group that will only be happy seeing Ole sacked, that's been clearly demonstrated in the other Ole-Bashing threads.We "comfortably bossed" them and couldn't score a goal without a penalty. That's the problem. It's been a problem for years now and nothings changed. We comfortably bossed Burnley at home in January and lost 2-0.
We're in a far better position to do that.That we still need loads of improvements at 5 positions in our starting 11 compared to 7 from Jose's time.
I'll reserve judgement on Pogba and Bruno as a pairing until I see more of them. But great players with no plan isn't a magic fix. I've seen nothing from our play to suggest we're getting any better at breaking teams down. We, and Ole, can't just expect to drop Sancho in and us to turn into a top side. We need better movement up front, we need to be moving the ball quicker through the midfield and attack, and to be less predictable. These are big problems, and thus far it seems Ole has no idea how to fix them with the players we have.It's a problem I agree. But it's a singular problem. We've had years of problems on multiple fronts. It's not as if Ole isn't trying to fix that issue, the signing of Sancho I feel is driven partly by this issue, having Pogba and Bruno in the team at the same time will also improve this. But none of this matters because there is a group that will only be happy seeing Ole sacked, that's been clearly demonstrated in the other Ole-Bashing threads.
Easiest thing in the world for a United fan to say is that Ole isn't cut out for the job, it's a throwaway comment that has no comeback.
Personally I hope Ole has the benefit of next season with a fully fit and firing side. I'm confident that the additions of Bruno and Sancho and a fit Pogba will see us challenge and hopefully prove the doubters wrong. I'd bet on that first rather than swapping out the manager again now.
Ah ha ok - sorry maybe I was being slow.That we still need loads of improvements at 5 positions in our starting 11 compared to 7 from Jose's time.
They are starting together tonight along with Rashford, Martial and Greenwood.I'll reserve judgement on Pogba and Bruno as a pairing until I see more of them. But great players with no plan isn't a magic fix. I've seen nothing from our play to suggest we're getting any better at breaking teams down. We, and Ole, can't just expect to drop Sancho in and us to turn into a top side. We need better movement up front, we need to be moving the ball quicker through the midfield and attack, and to be less predictable. These are big problems, and thus far it seems Ole has no idea how to fix them with the players we have.
Hopefully. That’s the side I wanted to see.They are starting together tonight along with Rashford, Martial and Greenwood.
Let's hope they impress
Yep obviouslyAn interesting piece in F365 this morning about how terrible this season has been for us, if it wasn't for the decent run after Fernandes joined who knows what situation we would be in. We need 19 points from our last 24 available just to beat our worst ever Premier League total which was achieved under Moyes. If we don't match that then surely something has to be done?
https://www.football365.com/news/man-utd-and-solskjaer-have-eight-games-to-avoid-disaster
Think everyone's in agreement thereHopefully. That’s the side I wanted to see.
Not well, but I say we keep trying until we get thereSo to ensure we don’t have transition seasons, you want to transition the manager? How has that approach worked till now?
Yes, but if you look at our past title wins, most have been a struggle, we’re always a team in transition. We should never use ‘transition’ an excuse for failure.And if you ignore reality and context you’ll be stuck in the same rinse and repeat stages of performing the transition that would have been easier to just accept is needed in the first place.
I’m honestly sick to death of seeing people will fully ignore the context that tough titties we are not CL guaranteed every season, nor are we entitled to any form of title challenge just because we are United.
It’s a sickening the level of wilful ignorance when you claim resources of which I assume you mean money when in reality all that matters is who is physically on the pitch.
Our average team has been the following:
De Gea
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McTominay Fred
James Periera Rashford
Martial
We were bereft of creativity due to an injury to Pogba and now we have him and Bruno back you still have whiny individuals pining after an unrealistic expectation. Take the best player out of any side and they struggle. Add quality and they improve. It’s no coincidence that Liverpool have one of the best injury records in the league and look what happened when they lost Salah for a game...
We finally, for the first time in 7 years are one quality winger away from a good team with outstanding elements. Not necessarily a title winning side but something to enjoy and be proud of. Every member of our first XI with someone like Sancho would at least be a good option and a lot of them are great options when fit.
And yet you get people who want it all now. The arrogance and entitlement gives United fans a bad name when I believe the majority are realistic about our season.
It’s not been great because we haven’t had our best available. The fact that we are still in the mix for top3/4, in with a chance of winning the FA cup and Europa league is testament to what a good job he’s done with some bang average players at his disposal. All of his signings have been good or great and yet people would arbitrarily want Ole removed for failing to meet top 4?
Get a grip.
Yes, and you don’t think the majority of fans thought that wasn’t acceptable to finish second or third. If we’re giving Ole 5 years before any success then it’s going to be a bleak few years.Like we did in 1990, 1995, 2002, 2005?
Gopher Brown may not accept transitional seasons, but Alex Ferguson built his success on them (and in them). I know excuses exist, and I know transitions exist, and this season is pretty bloody obviously one marked by real transition.
If it wasn’t for that spell of draws and struggles against weaker teams earlier this season, who knows what situation we would be in.An interesting piece in F365 this morning about how terrible this season has been for us, if it wasn't for the decent run after Fernandes joined who knows what situation we would be in. We need 19 points from our last 24 available just to beat our worst ever Premier League total which was achieved under Moyes. If we don't match that then surely something has to be done?
https://www.football365.com/news/man-utd-and-solskjaer-have-eight-games-to-avoid-disaster
Yes but you need the players to fix the problem as well.I'll reserve judgement on Pogba and Bruno as a pairing until I see more of them. But great players with no plan isn't a magic fix. I've seen nothing from our play to suggest we're getting any better at breaking teams down. We, and Ole, can't just expect to drop Sancho in and us to turn into a top side. We need better movement up front, we need to be moving the ball quicker through the midfield and attack, and to be less predictable. These are big problems, and thus far it seems Ole has no idea how to fix them with the players we have.
Right, because the 5/6 years previous to Ole's appointment weren't depressing, toxic, and just outright embarrassing?. Get a grip, you can't even appreciate how this is the most determined, attacking united side we've had since Sir Alex. Credit to Ole for instilling the ole United culture back at the club. Clearly that's beginning to impact the squad and the atmosphere pre-lockdown at OT had been the best in years.Yes, and you don’t think the majority of fans thought that wasn’t acceptable to finish second or third. If we’re giving Ole 5 years before any success then it’s going to be a bleak few years.
I can see this team is getting better, but we’re still a fair bit away from the top 4
Exactly. Completely agree. But some people will never be happy. LvG had a bit of a purple patch but the feelgood was not as good as under Ole. I'm very happy with things at the mo. Think we might even nick 4th and win the Europa.This has been by far and away the best season post Ferguson for me