It certainly answers my questions.
El Salvador Mega Prison
- Thread starter Mr Pigeon
- Start date
So you’ve made up your mind…
FYI murder rate in El Salvador is already plummeting so it’s working alright
Wow, sounds a lot like what El Salvadorans live through under ms13 rule.
Of course I have. As do you. I prefer human ways that actually work in the longterm. You prefer some revenge fantasies that will just cause the whole country to be less free and have no longterm benefits.
MS13 were in government?
Either way, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. All El Salvadorians deserve those absolute rights. Civilians and suspects and convicted prisoners. If you agree with that then awesome
Some sort of fetish for violence, only against a population that "deserves it"
Maybe have El Salvador worry about providing this to its regular citizens first?
p.s you never replied to the Giuliani stats I posted.
less innocent people are dying. That’s a big benefit.
What your “prefer” is impractical and utopia but not reality.
Yes I love seeing gangs like ms-13 and terrorists that live of off abusing the systems in place finally get what they deserved.
They’d gamed the system so well they never thought it would get to them but finally El Salvador went feck it.
The way they carried out the operation was beautiful as well. Surrounded the whole city and slowly forming a tighter circle till all gangs were cleaned up.
What I prefer is being done in many countries worldwide and proven to work significantly better. Every penny put into these disgusting torture camps is money that should have been put into countless other areas.
The thing I find most disturbing about all this is how wilfully you and others either ignore or just don’t care about the fact, that there are innocent people in there as well. But let’s torture those for the greater good.
Why can't I worry about both at the same time? Countries who do well focus on both.
Let me go back and check your response, i was offline for a bit
The irony is same countries that have humane prisons would never get to that level without brutally violating human rights for centuries.
You can’t show me one example that didn’t have a brutal past. That’s the reality. People think these less developed nations have the ability to act in the same way as a developed nation but they can’t and their problems are different
Here’s an example from Pakistan: the army would conduct military operations on terrorist camps in the south west. Terrorists that blew up children’s schools and blasted civilians in shopping malls.
When the army would get to them terrorists would use every game in the book to prolong their sentencing, hide behind the laws and just send the investigation team down a route of “well can you prove it was me/us?”
It was a mess and they’d just get released back into the system. Army went feck it and started military courts where they’d decide who lives and who dies.
Im not saying that’s right nor denying innocents must have been caught up in the storm but in the immediate effect thousands of civilians were spared. What do you suspect they should have done? Provided adequate food and water and a safe space to sleep for the child murderers and rapists?
sometimes when your crime or law and order situation is so bad you have to go to war where innocents die but the goal is to bring stability not some fetish of revenge as you call it
Obviously. Yes. Due process and humane conditions.
Do you believe the Nuremberg trials were wrong?
Colombia is much safer and free than it was in the 80s-90s when Escobar and cartels were powerful. It took a war against them with the help of the U.S. and questionable tactics. To take on a powerful and violent cartel it took extreme measures.
Seems like that could happen without putting 100 people in a 10x10 cell.
It's surely possible to imprison large numbers of dangerous men without treating them like livestock. Why aren't there enough beds for every man? What do they think is going to happen with all those young, violent men locked up together in large numbers?
Maybe they want them all to fight each other. I expect they will, many of them will be addicted to drugs and will be coming off those cold turkey.
Maybe they want them all to fight each other. I expect they will, many of them will be addicted to drugs and will be coming off those cold turkey.
Those sorts of conditions take criminals with a chance of rehabilitation and turn them into hard core criminals with no chance of rehabilitation.
Its an awful prison concept.
But it works so well in so many great countries. The US (land of the free after all. Please don’t Google their prison population), China, Saudi Arabia or Qatar.
All for rehabilitation of criminals and gang members stealing cars from suburbs and what not but thinking MS-13 members will get on path of rehab is like thinking we should have put Bin Laden in a safe prison where he would have fully recovered and started giving ted talks on how wrong he was. It got ignored in my previous posts but these gangs thrive off of the justice system and abuse it. You need extreme measures to go against extreme problems
There's the issue in just sweeping up thousands of men as if they're all identical widgets.
I don’t think these conditions are too different from similar poor countries with high violent crime rates and gangs. It’s possible in the western world. Doubt it’s financially viable in ES and other third world prisons.
bed for every man? 3 hot meals a day? I reckon if you said this to an el Salvadoran they’d laugh in your face, if not down right feel offended. Doesn’t mean that you’re wrong. It’s just your reality and worldview isn’t remotely close to theirs.
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Extreme measures relative to the problem there would be a massive program of improving the average citizens quality of life. Extreme because its completely outside the approach you advocate.
The extreme problem is poverty, the extreme answer (because it costs the rich) is to reduce poverty.
You are advocating for a lazy, cheap, short term approach which doesnt solve the problem but temporarily suppresses it.
Lazy short term thinking without any depth of intelligence applied.
And all of the people in those prisons are MS13 members? And all MS13 members are the same level of bad beyond redemption? El Salvador has the highest incarceration rate in the world: 605 prisoners per 100,000 people (link). You think they're all incarcerated for good reason and to be treated the same way?
This made me laugh.
1) That's what is being reported. MS13 members being the main target and the massive tattoos their gang members get is one giveaway.
2) Some are worse than others but the ability to tackle a violent gang and save the ones that could be redeemed is not only not worth it but insensitive to the thousands of innocent lives that would be lost at the expensive of the possibility that maybe some MS13 member or an ISIS fighter makes a turnaround. Some countries have the resources for this and are able to do this. Others cannot. That's the reality and it comes down to making a choice.
3) All? No I can't say that. Just like war, you can't say every causality or imprisonment was deserved but when the alternative is being took advantage of your passive laws it leaves no option. I don't think all those prisoners are incarcerated in the mega prison either so there is a differentiation.
Right let's think of a massive poverty overhaul, adjust imports and exports to fix the financial situation, bring about economic stability and hope for the best. Meanwhile the thousands getting slaughtered everyday will sort itself out, no need to worry about that. Not like dozens of murders a day will impact the economy!
Very intellectual indeed...
Lazy is simply saying to “reduce poverty”, as if it’s easily attainable. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. The problem can be both extreme poverty and extreme gang violence. Tackling both should be the goal. In ES’s situation these aggressive measures, or let’s just call it a war, is necessary to get somewhat of a stranglehold on MS13. It obviously shouldn’t be the only strategy to combat gang violence, but is one of the important measures they have the power to do.
Poverty breeds gang activity. If a society can provide people with opportunities then there are fewer reasons to commit illegal acts to survive and prosper.
These MS13 thugs forfeit whatever rights some claim to deserve when they commit unspeakable atrocities that I won't mention here in detail due to their horrendously graphic nature.
Good on Bukele, clearly these solutions are working since crime in El Salvador has plummeted and vast majority of population approves of his approach.
Good on Bukele, clearly these solutions are working since crime in El Salvador has plummeted and vast majority of population approves of his approach.
Yes everyone knows that. So how would you rid/reduce their poverty
Well, you could build a massive prison industrial complex to employ people and have LE and military just round up everyone with a neck tattoo to get it started.
But seriously, in a place like El Salvador you could develop tourism, agriculture, service industries like call centres, etc., and educate and train people to do those jobs.
Here's the trend for the last few decades. Bukele took over halfway through 2019.
Seems clear it’s all because of him and his human rights violating prisons.Here's the trend for the last few decades. Bukele took over halfway through 2019.
It’s honestly quite depressing how some people seem to find happiness in the bad treatment of people just because they’re criminals.
People finding happiness in the misery of others is quite literally how right leaning governments get and then stay in power.
It's sad how people like you will make the enormity of having a family member, child or friend murdered by thugs about how "they don't have beds in prison, so it's bad that they're off the streets and crime and the horror of murder of the innocent is enormously slashed, actually."
Nobody has done anything of the sort you enormous weirdo.
Of course.
When you say that the Republicans aren't far enough to the right for you, is it things like this you want or less taxes?
It's more of a foreign policy issue for me. Thanks for the good faith question though.
You’ve got some nerve talking about good faith after your post above.