Erik ten Hag vs Sancho

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Okay I know this is the Manchester United forum and we have to hate everything City related but this is the one of the biggest pieces of bullshit I’ve read in this forum.

We really have to respect what Guardiola has done in modern football. He may have done it only with big clubs but he got his chance by working his way from the bottom.
Pep has only ever taken the easy jobs where he is pretty much nailed on to finish at least 2nd in the league.

Villanova won the league with the same team Pep had, Enrique won the treble with Barcelona, including another league title, Valverde won the league and Cup double then another league title. All these managers were lucky enough to have Messi, Iniesta, Busquets and co, what Pep won at Barcelona was not much different to Enrique, because if you have the best team in La Liga you are going to win a lot.

Bayern Munich had just won the treble the year before Pep arrived, then he just won a few cups and league titles, which is expected at Bayern, and every manager since him has won the league. He was hired to win the CL with them and he failed after inheriting the team that actually just won it.

At Man City he has spent more than any other manager in football history at one club. That is while inheriting De Bruyne, David Silva, Aguero, Kompany, Yaya Toure.

Inheriting them players at Man City, then spending a billion quid after to add to it and keep topping the team up with superstar signings, constantly having the best team in the league all while the club is cheating by breaking all the rules.

Yes he has dominated wherever he has managed but he has had the best team and/or the most money to spend. But he plays pretty football so all is forgiven and ignored that he has had an extremely easy ride his entire managerial career.
 
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Rusholme Ruffian

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Last year he was the third highest scorer and the fourth highest provider of assists in the club. So he made a certain contribution. Maybe not as much as people fairly expected, but in the world of "small margins" he still had his impact.

Now he's still good enough to sit on the bench and be substituted in the last 15-20 minutes of a tie and try to influence the game. If he manages to do that even one time in 10, that's still 2 points more than the club has at the end of the season. As of today, no one knows if he would make a difference or not, but the chance is there.

And then the question is whether it should be the manager's job to maximise those chances, even if the manager suffers a temporary setback, or whether he should hold his line despite possible losses for the final result of the season.
I think the question is whether any alternative sub could contribute more?
 

Stabra

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I think the question is whether any alternative sub could contribute more?
You can use today's game as an example.
I think Sancho, as a footballer, would be better suited as a substitute than Eriksen/Maguire/VDB to break CP's low block. As said earlier, it's all about maximising chances.
But of course that's just my subjective opinion.
 
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m1tch

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As the weeks go by without an apology, and with the performances and results as they are, the more I start to think Sancho knows what the squad think of EtH and so he knows he'll be back soon under the new manager.
 

astracrazy

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As the weeks go by without an apology, and with the performances and results as they are, the more I start to think Sancho knows what the squad think of EtH and so he knows he'll be back soon under the new manager.
Nonsense. Its as if you haven't kept up with what the problems with Sancho are.

Any player that supports his attitude and commitment can leave too.
 

stefan92

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Nonsense. Its as if you haven't kept up with what the problems with Sancho are.

Any player that supports his attitude and commitment can leave too.
That's not the point. A player can dislike Sancho's behaviour and at the same time want to get rid of EtH. And the latter is important for Sancho because if that happens he might get a clean slate again under a new manager, especially if he should manage to give the impression that his issues were rooted in the way EtH treated him.

Just a theory and not guaranteed to work, but nonetheless a possible way to think about all this.
 

Mourinhonista

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1:0 Sancho. You can oezil anyone, but you have to win. If you don't, i prefer not to speak.
 

Mercurial

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As the weeks go by without an apology, and with the performances and results as they are, the more I start to think Sancho knows what the squad think of EtH and so he knows he'll be back soon under the new manager.
Sancho is playing 4D chess on his xBawx
 

THE ZOL

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As the weeks go by without an apology, and with the performances and results as they are, the more I start to think Sancho knows what the squad think of EtH and so he knows he'll be back soon under the new manager.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Because why would Sancho take this stubborn stance if he doesn’t feel that he has even an outside chance of outlasting the manager? Furthermore, why would he take this position if there were not already murmurs of discontent in the squad about the manager? I think Ten Hag overplayed his hand by banishing Sancho and it was maybe the straw that broke the camels back for a lot of players.

On a side note, I am also wondering how the squad feels about how Ten Hag has treated other players, even if there were football reasons for marginalising them.

Perhaps they agreed with Cristiano - who many undoubtedly view as the GOAT - that ETH disrespected him.

Perhaps they view stripping Maguire of the captaincy was an unnecessary humiliation considering that he does not start anyway and he may be a popular member of the dressing room.

Perhaps attempting to force Fred and McTominay out of the club were also alienating behaviours, with the latter especially not giving the opportunity to play in a position where he is banging them in for his country.

Perhaps there is talk about the unlimited chances given to Antony and Weghorst before him, whereas others do not get a run of games.

This is all speculation but it seems that the team morale is very low because they do not like working with this manager as a person and are therefore not 100% committed to implementing his tactics (which I think are flawed anyway, but that is another discussion).
 

m1tch

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This is exactly what I was thinking. Because why would Sancho take this stubborn stance if he doesn’t feel that he has even an outside chance of outlasting the manager? Furthermore, why would he take this position if there were not already murmurs of discontent in the squad about the manager? I think Ten Hag overplayed his hand by banishing Sancho and it was maybe the straw that broke the camels back for a lot of players.
I imagine Ten Hag has tried to make an example of players that don't meet expectations of standards/discipline, as a warning to the rest of the squad. Whilst that's something that's desperately needed, the downside is that we've got a squad riddled with bluffers and ultimately EtH doesn't have the key things to implement this approach with them:
1. Significant credit in the bank (ala SAF, Klopp, Pep) from multiple trophy wins.
2. The funds, time, and practicality limitations of constructing a squad of players with the right ability and mentality.

If he's the right man for this job, he needs to find 11 - 16 players he can trust his job with. That might mean turning to the younger players, especially given the injuries.
 

IrishRedDevil

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Made an example of Sancho to make sure all other players maintain a higher standard / train better / whatever, proceed to lose 4 out of 7 league games. Something isn't adding up.
 

Roboc7

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This is exactly what I was thinking. Because why would Sancho take this stubborn stance if he doesn’t feel that he has even an outside chance of outlasting the manager? Furthermore, why would he take this position if there were not already murmurs of discontent in the squad about the manager? I think Ten Hag overplayed his hand by banishing Sancho and it was maybe the straw that broke the camels back for a lot of players.

On a side note, I am also wondering how the squad feels about how Ten Hag has treated other players, even if there were football reasons for marginalising them.

Perhaps they agreed with Cristiano - who many undoubtedly view as the GOAT - that ETH disrespected him.

Perhaps they view stripping Maguire of the captaincy was an unnecessary humiliation considering that he does not start anyway and he may be a popular member of the dressing room.

Perhaps attempting to force Fred and McTominay out of the club were also alienating behaviours, with the latter especially not giving the opportunity to play in a position where he is banging them in for his country.

Perhaps there is talk about the unlimited chances given to Antony and Weghorst before him, whereas others do not get a run of games.

This is all speculation but it seems that the team morale is very low because they do not like working with this manager as a person and are therefore not 100% committed to implementing his tactics (which I think are flawed anyway, but that is another discussion).
Sancho hasn’t performed under 3 managers at Utd now, I doubt outlasting ETH is going to make much difference for him.

If we really have players who fold as soon as someone is disciplined, can’t accept someone who isn’t good enough losing the Captaincy or disagree with wanting to move on deadwood like Mctominay then that’s pretty pathetic.
 

Mercurial

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Made an example of Sancho to make sure all other players maintain a higher standard / train better / whatever, proceed to lose 4 out of 7 league games. Something isn't adding up.
That's more on EtH and his poor selections and poor subs tbh.
 

blazinRe'D'

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Honestly sad about the situation. I watched Sancho live against Dortmund in pre-season and it looked like he was in good shape compared to previous seasons and was one of our threats going forward.

Doesn't seem like he has the fortitude to play himself back into the team nor does he gives a toss at this point. I'm sure at this point he feels the club and fans are against him so there's no love lost there.

Best case scenario is someone gives in here and he comes back as an option somehow but given how things stand he's going to go for peanuts in the summer without being replaced.
 

saik

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That's more on EtH and his poor selections and poor subs tbh.
Or rather his players are letting him down. The truth is probably somewhere in between but a manager can't do much when his senior players in Bruno and Rashford let him down constantly. I'm pretty sure ETH hasn't instructed Rashford to run down blind alleys. If he did, then he needs to be fired on the spot.
 

Mercurial

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Or rather his players are letting him down. The truth is probably somewhere in between but a manager can't do much when his senior players in Bruno and Rashford let him down constantly. I'm pretty sure ETH hasn't instructed Rashford to run down blind alleys. If he did, then he needs to be fired on the spot.
He should have put Bruno to RW and Hannibal center. We kinda need that retention & engine badly. Instead the stubborn as a donkey manager insists on that Casemiro Mount Bruno travesty.
 

saik

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He should have put Bruno to RW and Hannibal center. We kinda need that retention & engine badly. Instead the stubborn as a donkey manager insists on that Casemiro Mount Bruno travesty.
I'm with you on that bolded part. Although that wasn't the reason we lost but I hate that midfield combo. Fecking Wolves ran rings around that midfield, hate to think what Liverpool or City would do.

And if our players are underperforming because the manager has a discipline issue with another underperforming useless fecker in Sancho they can join him in training alone at the academy until January and then get rid. There is no way the club should side with any of our players now. After so many years and so many managers if you are still underperforming, at some point the blame should fall on the players. Sancho failed to impress under 3 different managers here under different systems and different positions. They tried their best to accommodate this twat and he thinks he is being scapegoated. I' tired of these underperforming players.
 

THE ZOL

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Sancho hasn’t performed under 3 managers at Utd now, I doubt outlasting ETH is going to make much difference for him.

If we really have players who fold as soon as someone is disciplined, can’t accept someone who isn’t good enough losing the Captaincy or disagree with wanting to move on deadwood like Mctominay then that’s pretty pathetic.
I disagree with the bit in bold. Sancho did not play for Ole long enough. He came back ill and was gradually playing himself into form.

He was arguably our best player in the three Carrick games. With Ralf he was also one of our better players despite all the dysfunction. Under ETH he started last season well, before tailing off and sent to the mountains. When he was being eased back into the side he then finished the season strongly. He also hasn’t had the same run of games and limitless opportunities as Antony.
 

Roboc7

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I disagree with the bit in bold. Sancho did not play for Ole long enough. He came back ill and was gradually playing himself into form.

He was arguably our best player in the three Carrick games. With Ralf he was also one of our better players despite all the dysfunction. Under ETH he started last season well, before tailing off and sent to the mountains. When he was being eased back into the side he then finished the season strongly. He also hasn’t had the same run of games and limitless opportunities as Antony.
He’s been poor since he joined with exception of a handful of games. He hasn’t deserved to be picked
more often and no manager is going to accept his work rate in training or on the pitch unless he miraculously starts doing what he did at Dortmund.

A 70m flop in their third season isn’t going to gain much by not playing and hoping to outlast the manager.
 

pratyush_utd

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I disagree with the bit in bold. Sancho did not play for Ole long enough. He came back ill and was gradually playing himself into form.

He was arguably our best player in the three Carrick games. With Ralf he was also one of our better players despite all the dysfunction. Under ETH he started last season well, before tailing off and sent to the mountains. When he was being eased back into the side he then finished the season strongly. He also hasn’t had the same run of games and limitless opportunities as Antony.
Because he doesn’t deserve it. Anyone who has watched him play can see that he contributes very little in attack and defence whenever he has played for us. Antony hasn’t been great but his workrate alone make this comparison meaningless.

Sancho just doesn’t deserve any chance based on his performance. And his attitude while training meant that he didn’t deserve any minutes in first team
 

norm87cro

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There is something in Sanchos attitude for sure and I heve been ripping on ETH for the last week. The point is he is a well paid professional that should be used for the benefit of the team. Nothing more nothing less
 

Martinez4midfield

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Why aren't there actual details about what level in training he isn't reaching? Is he not exerting himself enough doing push ups? Is he not showing up? Or and I think many people have speculated he's late?

Well how late then and how often? What I'm getting at is I wonder if the players agree the punishment fits the crime or do they not give a feck and just want to play with best or at least who they perceive is better. My suspicion is it's the latter.
 

THE ZOL

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Because he doesn’t deserve it. Anyone who has watched him play can see that he contributes very little in attack and defence whenever he has played for us. Antony hasn’t been great but his workrate alone make this comparison meaningless.

Sancho just doesn’t deserve any chance based on his performance. And his attitude while training meant that he didn’t deserve any minutes in first team
From a tactical perspective, every bad United attacking performance this season is vindicating Sancho, regardless of attitude, simply due to his playing style and the fact that nobody but injury prone Amad and Martial can replicate it.

The chemistry betweeen Rashford and Hojlund is poor because both prefer to play on the shoulder of the last defender. This means that one of them will always have to be the supporting attack: which involves dropping deep, connecting the midfield to the attack, playing between the lines and be creative. This is unnatural for both of them, while being natural for Sancho. Moreover, for Rashford and Hojlund to be at their best, they need a player who specialises in those aforementioned supporting act duties. Therefore, by playing them together, Ten Hag is exposing their weaknesses and hiding their strengths.

Garnacho has also been a victim of this. The stinkers he dropped at the start of the season were because Rashford was the number 9, when Garnacho needs a forward that takes the creative burden off him and drags defenders out of position to create space for him to run in behind.

With Hojlund, Garnacho and Rashford all not performing to their best ability, the solution for getting the best out of them lies in the three forwards in our squad who can play with their head up and a predominantly geared towards recieving the ball to feet and creating space for the speedy players to exploit. These are: Amad (injured), Martial (injury prone) and… Sancho.

Ten Hag overplayed his hand with the Sancho issue and underestimated the importance of a player with Sancho’s traits. This itself was bizarre because Sancho had a very good pre-season in the false 9 role. Sancho has the profile necessary to bring the best out of all of our speed merchant forwards (Pellistri, Rashford, Hojlund and Garnacho). Yet he has not even been given an opportunity this season. Perhaps Ten Hag may have felt it was necessary to make an example of Sancho. But with every game, you see how disjointed our attack looks.

Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho and Pellistri’s natural instincts are all too similar for them to work well together. They are head-down and direct players who are not very creative and work best with players who play with their head-up and come to recieve the ball to feet in order to create space for them to run in behind.

For now, most of the fans blame individual forwards for being out of form. The tactical reality is that their profiles do not compliment each-other. Whether the fans realise this or not does not matter. Game by game, the lack of opportunities created will speak for themselves and unless rectified, they should cost Ten Hag his job.

Perhaps Ten Hag will bring back Sancho - sans apology - in desperation. Even in the event of an improvement with regards to our attacking structure and chance creation, the dressing room and the fans are certain to lose all respect for him and it will clear that the risk he took in both publicly humiliating Sancho and subsequently banishing him was a case of overplaying his hand severely and it backfiring horribly.
 

Em765

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I dont rate Sancho anyway.
Prefer Rashford and Garnacho as LW.
Slightly prefer Antony as RW and willing to give Amad a chance too and potentially even Mount at that position too.

So as far as Im concerned, get rid.
At least Antony unlike him has some grit and fight in him.
Sanchi was a horrible buy.
 

stefan92

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So from that tweet
He’s on the verge of leaving (in 2-3months)
It could be a transfer but it more than likely will be a loan.
The Dortmund manager likes him and speaks to him regularly (but he won’t be going there)

A 6 year old could have tweeted it .
Doesn't that apply to almost every tweet ever made? But of course you are right.
 

RedPed

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This one's beginning to piss me off, not gonna lie. Sancho was looking better than Rashford and Antony at the start of the season. All ten Hag had to do was keep it shut. He's been in no position to be calling any player out.

If Rashford sucks tonight then starts against Brentford, it's only gonna strengthen Sancho's case. Ten Hag's treading a fine line at the moment. Things could easily turn for him.
 

the_cliff

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This one's beginning to piss me off, not gonna lie. Sancho was looking better than Rashford and Antony at the start of the season. All ten Hag had to do was keep it shut. He's been in no position to be calling any player out.

If Rashford sucks tonight then starts against Brentford, it's only gonna strengthen Sancho's case. Ten Hag's treading a fine line at the moment. Things could easily turn for him.
In which game ?
Or are we talking pre season ?


If Rashford scores a goal tonight he'd have as many goals as Sancho has in his last 12 appearances.
 

johannes_fd

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The guy has been lethargic for 2 years, he's had a sabattical in the Netherlands for his health, and the club has (from an outside point of view) done alot of work in order to make him function properly. He's been given plenty of chances. Time to send him off.

There's been reports of his bad habits while being a youth player in City, as well as in Dortmund. I blame the club for not doing their proper due dilligence before spending loads of money on Sancho.
 

FerociousCorgis

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This one's beginning to piss me off, not gonna lie. Sancho was looking better than Rashford and Antony at the start of the season. All ten Hag had to do was keep it shut. He's been in no position to be calling any player out.

If Rashford sucks tonight then starts against Brentford, it's only gonna strengthen Sancho's case. Ten Hag's treading a fine line at the moment. Things could easily turn for him.
yes. Totally EtH fault that sancho blew up over a literal nothing comment from him. Totally out of character from sancho, who has been a model professional his whole career, and is also training super hard to get back into the team to show him that he deserves to be starting over anyone else.

Oh wait.
 

gaffs

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This one's beginning to piss me off, not gonna lie. Sancho was looking better than Rashford and Antony at the start of the season. All ten Hag had to do was keep it shut. He's been in no position to be calling any player out.

If Rashford sucks tonight then starts against Brentford, it's only gonna strengthen Sancho's case. Ten Hag's treading a fine line at the moment. Things could easily turn for him.
Sancho has been terrible mate. As underwhelming a signing as we have ever made.

Agree that ETH could have avoided this by not saying anything, but as could Sancho.

Lets not pretend that if Sancho was in our team that results would be better.