EU Referendum | UK residents vote today.

[Sweet Square]

Then do me favour and stop trying to pretend that everyone who disagrees with you is some sort of xenophobe or is wanting the British Empire back.

Never said that.

Only said that millions people voted UKIP which is a xenophobic party(Hardly a controversial opinion.)And that Britain really doesn't like the immigration thing (Again hardly a controversial opinion)

Last point, are you as concerned about the UK as a whole voting to stay in the EU while England votes to leave as you seem to be about the vote going the other way?

I can only see the Scot's voting to stay in. But even then it wouldn't surprise me to see the SNP seeing this as way of getting another Independence vote. And after this election it's pretty clear that two country are so completely different for a lot of people and the 'Union' feeling is at it's lowest that it might work.

Wales well I'll be honest I haven't really got a clue.

Northern Ireland parties like DUP and UUP(Only party to make gain in the election) are on the conservative side of this argument. So people voting to leaving wouldn't be a surprise at all.

I could see this going the same way as the election, in that we think it will be a tight race but in the end it catches us all out.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

But that is utter nonsense. The economic benefits are huge. You just want to leave because foreigners come and claim the dole or something (despite that being bullshit). It is a brainless Little Englander attitude that defies reason. How else could you explain UKIP getting vote 1?

Tell that to Greece.

I didn't vote UKIP.

I can't think of a single thing the EU does well.

I can think of 8 billion reasons every year that we would be better off outside.

But you honestly think the only reason I would vote to leave is because I don't like immigrants.

 

[711]

Britain is supposed to take over the presidency of the council of the european union in July 2017. How that will pan out if we're in the middle of a leaving referendum is hard to imagine. Also it won't be that long before Cameron is regarded as a 'lame duck' prime minister. Every interview he will be asked when exactly is he going, what his plans are for a handover, and what if his successor's views on Europe are completely different to his. It's a shambles.

 

[Sweet Square]

This is slightly the problem with the argument. The extremes seem to be the only two talking points(@Wibble not every vote to leave will be because of immigration and @Don't Kill Bill it makes no sense to compare Greece to the UK).

 

[Mozza]

Despite all the problems Greece are in they don't want to leave the EU.

That's before you even consider that their problems are caused by the bailing out of the banking sector, not the EU

 

[AshfordLad]

Despite all the problems Greece are in they don't want to leave the EU.

That's before you even consider that their problems are caused by the bailing out of the banking sector, not the EU

Their problems began when they cooked their books to joing the club, so you can argue that they are caused by EU. Especially considering the fact that if they leave they can default /devalue and fix their economy after some short term pain.

EU membership is essentially forcing them to endure perpetual pain and even the rest of EU does not come out of this better off.

 

[Arruda]

Their problems began when they cooked their books to joing the club, so you can argue that they are caused by EU. Especially considering the fact that if they leave they can default /devalue and fix their economy after some short term pain.

EU membership is essentially forcing them to endure perpetual pain and even the rest of EU does not come out of this better off.

You're talking about Eurozone membership, not the European Union. Greece leaving the EU isn't really discussed much, and thought it could happen if things go sour with them leaving Eurozone, it certainly wouldn't be a discussion if they weren't a member of Eurozone (like the UK).

 

[Mozza]

Their problems began when they cooked their books to joing the club, so you can argue that they are caused by EU. Especially considering the fact that if they leave they can default /devalue and fix their economy after some short term pain.

EU membership is essentially forcing them to endure perpetual pain and even the rest of EU does not come out of this better off.

Goldman Sachs cooked their books, bankers again ruining it for everyone

 

[AshfordLad]

Goldman Sachs cooked their books, bankers again ruining it for everyone

Bankers are just tools. Real culprits were the greek politicians and the EU, its also unlikely that the rest of EU leaders were not aware of what the greeks were upto.

 

[Jippy]

Goldman Sachs cooked their books, bankers again ruining it for everyone

Or bankers doing politicians' dirty work more like.

 

[Chorley1974]

My point is that being outside the EU doesn't mean any of the things the article says will happen, will in reality happen. Norway is not in the EU. Do people from Norway struggle to travel in Europe, are their beaches dirtier because they are not in the EU? Are their fishing and agriculture industries devastated?

My only real concern with leaving is the possible reduction in inward investment.

The EU isn't working very well at the moment and the cost benefit of the UK staying in versus leaving isn't clear cut. If you can't deal with that argument and I struggle with it if I am honest. Then do me favour and stop trying to pretend that everyone who disagrees with you is some sort of xenophobe or is wanting the British Empire back.

Last point, are you as concerned about the UK as a whole voting to stay in the EU while England votes to leave as you seem to be about the vote going the other way?

Good post, we need to be far more balanced in discussions. on the EU The pro EU agenda in here I can't really fathom, it seems to be that no country in the EU will trade with us if we leave the EU. London is the financial services capital of Europe, and the world, not because the UK is in the EU. There are for sure economic benefits of the UK being in the EU, but I'm not sure it's worth the economic and legal bind.

 

[Mozza]

Bankers are just tools. Real culprits were the greek politicians and the EU, its also unlikely that the rest of EU leaders were not aware of what the greeks were upto.

I think you'll find we are the tools, the bankers are the ones who use nations and people

 

[AshfordLad]

Good post, we need to be far more balanced in discussions. on the EU The pro EU agenda in here I can't really fathom, it seems to be that no country in the EU will trade with us if we leave the EU. London is the financial services capital of Europe, and the world, not because the UK is in the EU. There are for sure economic benefits of the UK being in the EU, but I'm not sure it's worth the economic and legal bind.

Its almost come to the point that the EU is begining to undermine London's strength as a financial centre. Banks are running off to Singapore, Insurers to Bermuda and Funds to Switzerland of all places. All this loss of GDP to subsidise some small vanity industries like cheese and wine production.

Cameron surely has to fight for unshackling british industry from eu regulation. What will happen though is he will fight for limited movement of people, thanks to labour and farage.

I think you'll find we are the tools, the bankers are the ones who use nations and people

You can not blame the bullet instead of the person who fires it. And we are the victims (of the govts.) not tools.

 

[Ubik]

Its almost come to the point that the EU is begining to undermine London's strength as a financial centre. Banks are running off to Singapore, Insurers to Bermuda and Funds to Switzerland of all places. All this loss of GDP to subsidise some small vanity industries like cheese and wine production.

Cameron surely has to fight for unshackling british industry from eu regulation. What will happen though is he will fight for limited movement of people, thanks to labour and farage.


You can not blame the bullet instead of the person who fires it. And we are the victims (of the govts.) not tools.

Aren't the banks saying they're more likely to leave the UK if we leave the EU?

 

[AshfordLad]

Aren't the banks saying they're more likely to leave the UK if we leave the EU?

Dont think so, I pretty sure its just the guardian is saying that.

BTW, banks are already folding desk after desk, insurers are folding book after book and moving away because of lousy EU regulation. Funds and fund managers are given a lot better treatment in swissland than here.

 

[Ubik]

Dont think so, I pretty sure its just the guardian is saying that.

BTW, banks are already folding desk after desk, insurers are folding book after book and moving away because of lousy EU regulation. Funds and fund managers are given a lot better treatment in swissland than here.

Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...orce-Wall-Street-banks-to-desert-Britain.html
Sky News - http://news.sky.com/story/1486638/deutsche-bank-mulls-leaving-uk-on-eu-exit

Tricksy Grauniad, infiltrating other news establishments to spread liberal lies.

 

[AshfordLad]

Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...orce-Wall-Street-banks-to-desert-Britain.html
Sky News - http://news.sky.com/story/1486638/deutsche-bank-mulls-leaving-uk-on-eu-exit

Tricksy Grauniad, infiltrating other news establishments to spread liberal lies.

In this context, I meant the media in general. Everyone (all media outlets and all political parties baring ukip) want UK to be in the EU. Sure they have quotes from some banks in there, but no one would care to mention the incremental exodus of money due to convoluted regulation that takes ages to enforce and becomes obsolete by the time it is functional.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

You're talking about Eurozone membership, not the European Union. Greece leaving the EU isn't really discussed much, and thought it could happen if things go sour with them leaving Eurozone, it certainly wouldn't be a discussion if they weren't a member of Eurozone (like the UK).

The Euro zone is an EU project though is it not? It has to be fair to question the effect of the Euro on Greece and how well the problem is being handled by the EU. I think it is now policy that any country joining the EU has to use the Euro. Which suggests to me that lessons are not being learned and points to the direction of travel of the EU as a whole which is being driven politically by centralisation.

Britain is one of those other countries and while I am not saying the UK is exactly the same as Greece,I am saying that when you look at the long term proposition being set out by the EU, it serves as an example of just where it could be leading.

While people on here agree with or disagree with individual EU policies or directives , I question whether the EU is the body best placed to make the choices given situations like the Greek one. The Greeks now find themselves tied to a currency they can't leave, tied to an economy they can't match (Germany), and threatened with the collapse of their state through perpetual indebtedness.

Is this a unique situation which will never be repeated or is it directly caused by the EU and the policies it introduced?

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Despite the UKIP hype, the things Britain needs to re-negotiate with the EU are largely unrelated to immigration or freedom of movement. People with an understanding of how the EU works will be pushing for a completely different kind of change than the sort the UKIP crowd want.

In a way it's sort of a lose-lose for Cameron. If he successfully re-negotiates to stem freedom of movement freedom of movement to placate the electorate he'll be weakening the economy, and if he goes in to tackle the EU's deep-seated issues which need real reform he'll be pilloried for not achieving anything on immigration.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Eurosceptic organisation, Conservatives for Britain, has more than doubled its numbers to 110 Tory MPs demanding that Britain leaves Europe if Mr Cameron cannot secure drastic changes

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Senior Conservative MP Dr Liam Fox, the former Secretary of State for Defence, has attacked the government's plan to relax purdah rules.

He said: "It is unseemly at best for the executive to exempt itself from the legal, electoral and constitutional arrangements that it finds inconvenient during any electoral process.

"We had the period of purdah during the Scottish referendum and hearing the arguments that have been brought forward, they sound like the arguments of civil servants and lawyers that ministers have been too keen to listen to and under the full glare of scrutiny of this house and the media they come to sound increasingly self-serving.

"There is a reason why we have purdah. It is to stop the government of the day from affecting the independence or the fairness of any electoral process using the machinery of government to do so, either by spending taxpayers' money or using the press or other resources available to it.

"The fear in this debate is that the government, at all levels, central and local, could use taxpayers' money to support one side of the debate, potentially changing the course of that debate and the precedent that would set would be an extremely unfortunate one in our country.

"We do require independence of the civil service and the government machine to make sure that electoral processes is not unduly interfered with.

"After any referendum, particularly one which we know from previous debates will arouse great passions on both sides, afterwards we will require that that result is regarded as fair, reasonable and legitimate to have any chance of the country coming together on an issue once the voters have spoken.

"If people believe that they have been bounced or the result is the consequence of the rigged process it could become extremely difficult for that to happen and the political consequences in my view will be quite intense.

"The legitimacy of the process must be seen to be related to the fairness of the process and that is what is being put at risk by the government's proposals."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11677268/eu-referendum-bill-live.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11677268/eu-referendum-bill-live.html[/b]


The approach adopted by the PM in these early stages has been particularly ham-fisted , no subtlety or gently does it to proceedings.

 

[711]

27 Tories vote against the government. Whilst Cameron does what he has always done, pushes the date of referendum back as far as possible.
When's he going again? Sometime before the end of this parliament is the best we've had so far.

 

[sun_tzu]

27 Tories vote against the government. Whilst Cameron does what he has always done, pushes the date of referendum back as far as possible.
When's he going again? Sometime before the end of this parliament is the best we've had so far.

Before the end of 2017 was in the manifesto
I'd guess may 2017 would be favourite as most votes seem to be in may though it could in theory be as late as November or December (but I think leaving it too late makes him look scared)

 

[711]

Sorry sun, a bit unclear there, by 'when's he going?' I mean when will he announce the exact date he stands down as leader? He has said he won't lead the party into another term, and one would expect him to give his successor a year or more as party leader before an election. It's a question that he's going to be asked more and more until he gives an answer.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Both early this morning and within the past few hours, the Telegraph has given prominence to articles in which members of the business community or the City have spoken in favour of Britain leaving the EU. The support of Sir James Dyson and JCB will likely afford the argument greater credence with the public mind.

In other matters, Labour has appointed Alan Johnson to lead its pro-Brussels campaign ahead of the referendum.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Transport union to campaign for exit from "pro-austerity, anti-worker" EU

Transport union RMT has voted at its AGM in Newcastle to campaign for British withdrawal from the EU in the ‎forthcoming referendum.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said that RMT had reaffirmed its long-standing policy of opposing UK membership of the European Union and called for a out vote in any referendum on the issue.

“EU policies are at odds with the aspirations of this union as the various treaties and directives are demanding the privatisation of our rail and ferry industries.

“The EU is also secretly negotiating trade deals with the US and Canada which will decimate of health and education sectors and hand huge powers to transnational corporations over nation states and their governments.

“The Tories will be campaigning to stay in the EU come any referendum as they support this right wing, neo-liberal, anti-worker agenda,” he said.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/transport-union-to-campaign-for-exit-from-pro-austerity-eu/

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Cameron has admitted that there will be no treaty changes before the referendum. I wonder how that will go down with his back benches.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Listening to Owen Jones on the BBC yesterday, the Yes Campaign is certainly going to have a fight on its hands. He is of the opinion that the Left will abstain in large numbers, with an increasing proportion of the remainder likely to turn against the EU due to the treatment of Greece.

 

[Silva]

Is anyone taking into consideration that we'll have to join the longer queues at EU airports?

 

[sun_tzu]

Sorry sun, a bit unclear there, by 'when's he going?' I mean when will he announce the exact date he stands down as leader? He has said he won't lead the party into another term, and one would expect him to give his successor a year or more as party leader before an election. It's a question that he's going to be asked more and more until he gives an answer.

Officially he will serve the full term I think
Unofficially if he wins the referendum he will most likely go on a high... And if he looses I think he will have to leave (jumping before he is pushed)
So I'd guess he will be gone by the start of 2018 giving Boris / Osborne (whoever wins the vote) a few years / budgets before the next election

 

[AshfordLad]

Is anyone taking into consideration that we'll have to join the longer queues at EU airports?

I feel your pain mate. I wont be able to use my forigen DL to avoid getting points anymore. The fact that it would make our roads safer gets no fecks from me, just the same way as making our borders controls stronger is such a pain in your ass.

 

[Mozza]

Priority number one for Cameron? fecking over the workers

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...aigning-in-referendum-100-Tories-to-warn.html

A new Survation poll has found that support 51% of respondents would vote to leave the EU, were the referendum held now. A positive trend hopefully.

The wording of the ballot was refined last week too, with the initial choice of Yes/No having been replaced by Stay/Leave.

 

[sun_tzu]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...aigning-in-referendum-100-Tories-to-warn.html

A new Survation poll has found that support 51% of respondents would vote to leave the EU, were the referendum held now. A positive trend hopefully.

The wording of the ballot was refined last week too, with the initial choice of Yes/No having been replaced by Stay/Leave.

A poll for the mail on Sunday... Humm I'll give it a bit more credence if other polls show the same but for now it's very much the odd one out and just happens to fit their agenda

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

A poll for the mail on Sunday... Humm I'll give it a bit more credence if other polls show the same but for now it's very much the odd one out and just happens to fit their agenda

I don't know when the last such poll was carried out, although it would be surprising to see the Leave figures improving, what with the first the Greek crisis and now the increasingly muddled migrant situation. What could prove to be of unexpected importance, is the disillusionment amongst sections of the Labour Party and the unions.

 

[Tyrion]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...aigning-in-referendum-100-Tories-to-warn.html

A new Survation poll has found that support 51% of respondents would vote to leave the EU, were the referendum held now. A positive trend hopefully.

The wording of the ballot was refined last week too, with the initial choice of Yes/No having been replaced by Stay/Leave.

So the wording was changed and they want the organisation they're discussing to be barred from campaigning? I wonder what other idea they'll have: maybe the EU will be referred to as EUSSR on the ballot.

I think the way Europe's leaders behaved during the whole Greece crisis may come back to bite them. From what I've read in the British media, even some left wing people have turned on the current set up in the EU. Unfortunately, Cameron is not good enough to really change things in the EU.

 

[sun_tzu]

I don't know when the last such poll was carried out, although it would be surprising to see the Leave figures improving, what with the first the Greek crisis and now the increasingly muddled migrant situation. What could prove to be of unexpected importance, is the disillusionment amongst sections of the Labour Party and the unions.

Undoubtedly... I just want to see it in a poll not paid for by that racist rag before I give it any credence

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Undoubtedly... I just want to see it in a poll not paid for by that racist rag before I give it any credence

This is Survation's press release on the poll :: http://survation.com/new-polling-on...eave-lead-for-first-time-since-november-2014/

For reference, Survation’s most recent EU referendum poll, conducted between 29th June and 6th July using the same methodology and a similar but not identical question wording with a 5000 sample size (ex undecided voters) produced a 54% “Yes” (remain) and a 45% No (leave) result.

Regarding the topic of migration:

The follow on questions in the poll were mainly on the the topic of the current migration debate that has featured widely in the media, showing strong concern around the issue.

Finally, one question demonstrated that a significant minority of “remain” voters would consider changing their minds and voting to leave the EU should the migration crisis worsen.

 

[711]

I'll go along with that. I've been in favour of the EU ever since we went in, as far as the economy goes it's a no-brainer.
Immigration is starting to sway me though.

 

[Adebesi]

I cant see anything other than a victory for "leave" at this stage.

Ive always been in favour of staying in Europe but even my enthusiasm is waning (though not to the point that I would vote to leave).

The brand of "Europe" has never been more toxic in my lifetime. I dont think it will even be close.

Its just a case now of waiting to see what the chain of events is. What happens when Scotland and Wales vote to stay in and England votes to leave? And what happens to Europe once we leave? I dont want to overestimate Britain's importance to Europe, but will it embolden Eurosceptics across the continent and lead, eventually, to Europe's collapse? Or do they shrug their shoulders and just get on with it, quietly relieved that one of their most difficult and obstructive members has gone? Will it give them the impetus to reform and improve political structures, so the whole thing works properly? (I doubt it.)

I find it thoroughly depressing to be honest.