Nail on head Crofty.
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
Nail on head Crofty.
I assume there are no toys left in the pram after this? Masi made only one mistake - not letting the lapped cars past earlier. Go and listen to the pit radios. Every team and driver - including Merc and Lewis - expected the restart and expected lapped cars to be let by before. Lewis actually questioned why Merc didn’t pit him because he knew immediately what would happen. If Masi had made the right call first time, lapped cars would have passed half a lap earlier. Either way, the outcome would have been the same. It’s racing. When there’s an SC, sometimes you can lose. Other times, you win. At Imola, Lewis gained massively. Here, he lost out. If anyone is to be questioned it’s the idiot on the Mercedes pit wall that decided to leave Lewis out citing “track position”. It was obvious Max would pit. Leaving Lewis out just made him a sitting duck and from there on, Merc’s only hope was to avoid a restart (hence Lewis moaning on radio about debris on a clear track).
Your post makes no sense at all which is impressive for such a long post. Again anyone who understands f1 knows that there is no way Mercedes could have pit Hamilton there so they took the most obvious decision. Masi didn’t just make one mistake but rather a series of mistakes and if he had simply just followed the rules as they are Lewis Hamilton would have been world champion
The really funny thing is that it's fans like you that ensure Lewis doesn't have more fans than he does. Go ahead mate. Suit yourself. Everything was rigged and anti-Lewis. Every race and result was cunningly setup and manipulated to bring it to the point where Masi knew that he could simply instruct Latifi to put his car into the wall and then deny Lewis the Championship. Toto in particular does himself and Lewis no favours. Nor does Lewis of course with his occasional dark remark insinuating unfairness. But more than anything, what grates is the blind one-eyed narrative peddled by fans like you - the frenzy that the media then rushes to feed with the "Lewis is the greatest ever" and "Lewis wuz robbed" angles.
you really need to tone down the homophobic and racist bullshit.
It is pure rubbish on your part and has no place in here.
You comment in white is also bang out of order.
Why do people keep pushing this nonsense? I kind of that get its to avoid undermining Max's title, but had Masi followed the rules then Lewis is champion, and him being able to make up rules to crown whoever he wants is a terrible precedent. It's something we need to make sure can't ever happen again.
Masi's "mistake" was only allowing lapped cars between Lewis and Max to unlap, ignoring everyone else in the race, and then ignoring the rule that states that the safety car must stay out until the end of the following lap after that announcement is made.
Nobody is complaining about the SC happening, that's F1, but making up rules to give Max an easy overtake to win the title is, at best, gross negligence.
Because he could've let them pass half a lap earlier, meaning all cars would pass in time, the safety car would spend Lap 57 as the following lap, and there would be racing on lap 58.
Perhaps Masi put too much emphasis on the agreement between on wanting to end races under 'green' conditions, but I figure that's why he only let some cars unlap themselves.
The easy overtake was only easy because Mercedes chose not to pit, whilst Max did. That wouldn't be taken into consideration for the safety car ending.
I don't understand this justification of 'he should have unlapped them earlier, so it's ok/understandable to break the rules to make up for it later on to have a green racing lap"
I cannot.
In football, we don't just give random penalties/red cards out for ones that the ref missed earlier in the game do we? It's nuts and chaotic and against the spirit of any sort of competition. It's a parody.
I cannot.
In football, we don't just give random penalties/red cards out for ones that the ref missed earlier in the game do we? It's nuts and chaotic and against the spirit of any sort of competition. It's a parody.
Incorrect I'm afraid, Marshalls were still out on track on lap 56 as per a screenshot somewhere on this thread. Plus, that's just not when he did let them pass is it, it was lap 57 and should've ended behind SC. It's as simple as that, the procedure was not followed. Some of you coming in here like "oh well should've let them unlap sooner" 1. as i said, lap 56, people still on track and 3. that's not how it works.
Even if they lapped early on 57, the stewards threw out the Mercedes protest basing it on 48.13 in the sporting regulations that says "
When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap."
Now anyone can argue that goes against 48.12, which the stewards also admitted: "
That although Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully, in relation to the safety car returning to the pits at the end of the following lap, Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message “Safety Car in this lap” has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the safety car at the end of that lap."
My point is that when the race restarted Lewis was still in the lead, they wanted the race to finish under 'green' conditions as all teams had long agreed was preferrable, and whether one car took a risk to pit, and the other didn't wasn't a factor in the decision to re-start the race.
Wow. For the first time, someone who was on the scene and is effectively part of the sport, calling it like it is. I pretty much agree with all Crofty has said, apart from his view that there was no collusion.
I wish Lewis simply had an engine blowout on Lap 1 and we have all gone home satisfied with the ending. We wouldn't have to witness things we shouldn't.
His engine being sabotaged by Masi himself you mean...
See the problem with that argument is to activate 48.13 they had to break the rules for 48.12 ...
Ok firstly, it's crazy how many times you keep saying they could have pitted earlier. So many posters have told you why that couldn't happen. You yourself included pictures that you thought proved they could when it shows there were stewards still out at turn 14 when the safety car passed - two corners is not enough time to unlap everyone and get the safety car back in.
Secondly, yeah they threw it out because they are covering their own arses. Multiple lawyers have now lined up and spoken about the regulations. 48.13 is a prescriptive regulation, it is describing the processes, not overriding a regulation that comes just before it. Basically it goes 48.12 - lapped cars will be told to unlap themselves and after the final lapped car has unlapped itself the safety car comes in the following lap THEN 48.13 when the clerk deems it safe he will send out the signal that the safety car is in this lap.
The reason we know that that is the reading is because of this line in 48.12 ' Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap'.
So it's not that 48.13 overrides the previous regulation, it is stating that once the last car unlaps itself it is not an automatic signal that the safety car comes in, he still needs to discern if its safe or not before sending that message.
Wow this post is even worse than your first one. I have no idea what you are on about with Lewis not having fans because of his behaviour. Anyone with half a brain can see that what happened was clearly not right and the title was decided based on a series of mistakes by Masi . Does that mean that Lewis didn’t have any luck over the season ? Absolutely not but it is clear & obvious to anyone who saw the final race that it was an unprecedented error by Masi so obviously people can complain
It’s been 5 days since the incident and I haven’t seen any examples of races where the director decided to unlap only a certain number of cars and decided to bring it in a lap earlier. This after deciding exactly the opposite a minute later. In the end Lewis Hamilton lost a world championship because of that so it’s obvious that his fans would complain about that . No idea what your issue with that is
I do feel this last race fiasco is amplified because it was the last race. There's been plenty of controversies both ways this season, evenly distributed between the two.
I can completely imagine that Lewis and Merc fans are livid, but feck it. Put on that Frozen song.
I can completely imagine that Lewis and Merc fans are livid, but feck it. Put on that Frozen song.
I think that’s a fair argument. If anything for Max as well it has taken the gloss off a bit for what was a pretty incredible season. Few people are talking about him and all the conversation is about Mercedes
Outgoing FIA president Jean Todt believes the governing body has perhaps been "too permissive" of teams criticizing officials, comparing the issue to a football coach blasting the referee.
The controversial outcome of last weekend's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in which Max Verstappen pipped Lewis Hamilton to the world title on the very last lap of the race was the final episode of a series of incident-filled events that took place this season.
While Verstappen and Hamilton were the main actors on the stage this year, their respective team bosses took on prominent support roles that often pushed them to publicly vociferate their frustrations over the often-contentious decisions levied upon their drivers this year by the FIA stewards.
Todt, who will relinquish his FIA presidency this week, believes the time has perhaps come for the governing body to force team bosses and drivers to rein in their criticism of officials.
https://f1i.com/news/429098-todt-su...Fu8oW2HyiWjkWv7hPbDbLtYqybBQA4rhIcR0MXXaR91WU
The controversial outcome of last weekend's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in which Max Verstappen pipped Lewis Hamilton to the world title on the very last lap of the race was the final episode of a series of incident-filled events that took place this season.
While Verstappen and Hamilton were the main actors on the stage this year, their respective team bosses took on prominent support roles that often pushed them to publicly vociferate their frustrations over the often-contentious decisions levied upon their drivers this year by the FIA stewards.
Todt, who will relinquish his FIA presidency this week, believes the time has perhaps come for the governing body to force team bosses and drivers to rein in their criticism of officials.
https://f1i.com/news/429098-todt-su...Fu8oW2HyiWjkWv7hPbDbLtYqybBQA4rhIcR0MXXaR91WU
The only way Mercedes, Lewis and Lewis fans get closure on this is him winning title number 8, next season or season after.
I've been watching F1 for over 30 years now, seen title heartbreaks for Mansell, hill, alonso etc. Nothing has hurt as much as this one though, it still hurts as a passionate fan and a fan of lewis. Truly wish that max had sealed the title a few races back or simply blitzed the last gp and won by a country mile. Winning the title like this and robbing lewis in the process is so very very wrong. Note nothing against Max and RB here.
As a bare minimum Michael Masi has to be sacked. He cant continue, ever slightly dodgy decision next season will be called out by fans, media and teams themselves and amplified.
I've been watching F1 for over 30 years now, seen title heartbreaks for Mansell, hill, alonso etc. Nothing has hurt as much as this one though, it still hurts as a passionate fan and a fan of lewis. Truly wish that max had sealed the title a few races back or simply blitzed the last gp and won by a country mile. Winning the title like this and robbing lewis in the process is so very very wrong. Note nothing against Max and RB here.
As a bare minimum Michael Masi has to be sacked. He cant continue, ever slightly dodgy decision next season will be called out by fans, media and teams themselves and amplified.
Its fair point you make, I have no problem with Max and him winning, I had the season 50/50.
The problem was the last lap in the last race, feck me if you went to a film studio with that script they will thrown it out, as unbelievable.
Mansall's was a killer , his Tyre going the way it did.
It's like masi staged it for the next season of netflix Drive to Survive or whatever it's called.
Joking obviously
Yes, I was a kid then and cried my eyes out as I was a huge Mansell fan.
The picture is from lap 56, and it shows the last of the stewards leaving the track. That's more than half a lap before the 4 cars started unlapping themselves. I'm saying they could've unlapped all the cars if they'd let them unlap themselves earlier than they did, and then they'd have time to unlap all the cars on lap 57, and restart the race for lap 58. After which the decision to race for the last lap would be a less controversial, even if the 'following lap' procedure would still be waived. Masi would still refer to the agreement among all the teams that it's preferrable to end the race under 'green' conditions, and that argument would hold more weight that way.
There'd still be noise about it, but I think it'd be less of a controversy.
Mercedes chose not to pit because they weren't aware of the made up rule about to be invoked that second place would get a free run at first place, while third place has to stay behind lapped cars.
If they'd known that was the rule, they'd almost certainly have pitted Lewis so that he could have a nice easy overtake on softs.
As for the first part, it's been pointed out by enough other posters that they had to wait for the track to be fully clear. But most importantly, defending ignoring the rulebook because you liked the result is a dangerous precedent, as there's no guarantee you'll like the outcome next time the race director takes it upon himself to fix a championship.
Yeah, you can't invent this shit. For all the debate in here, I think it's quite clear Hamilton was fecked in the last race. The goal of the rules in racing should be so that the dude who's fastest around the track wins (bar him crashing or similar). That last race, the fastest person lost.
Yeah but it didn't happen and Masi broke tons of procedures to gift Max the win? So your point is what? We don't even know when the stewards did exit the track, they could've only been off it by the start of lap 57.
You seem to be changing your mind from comment to comment regarding when they could unlap.
But anyway how do you know when the stewards were actually clear? Maybe there was still one last one jumping the barrier (and getting clear of it) a second before Masi finally allowed them to unlap.
Anyway it doesn't really matter does it?
If Masi flicked a sneaky cigarette in his exhaust, and I didn't have to see it live on TV, I am a happy man.
At the end of the day, I like both Lewis and Max and am happy with either as champ, really. But in my eyes, this was Lewis's race all day long until Masi happened.
There's surely a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes in F1 in terms of negotiations about penalties, rules and what not. But what I want to see live on TV is a fair spirit and competition, because I expect that from a sport.
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Do you honestly think that it's far fetched to think that a racing series that sells it's events to dictators and is known to influence races from the outside would influence a race to comfort one of it's clients?
If you go through the team radio, most of the field seemed to expect cars to unlap themselves. It happens all the time. It's not a made up rule. If you go back a few more laps, Mercedes would know that there was a chance cars would be allowed to unlap. That's the WHOLE REASON why Red Bull pitted a second time! Mercedes chose not to pit, because then Max would stay out, he'd been in the lead, and he already pitted fairly recently under the virtual safety car. (another time Mercedes chose not to pit because they'd lose track position).
Also, I'm not defending ignoring the rulebook because I liked the result, but I can understand the logic Masi went by. I think people lend too little weight to the agreement between teams that it's preferrable to end under 'green' conditions. That's a big part of the reasoning Masi gave the stewards. The race director shouldn't give weight to whether cars have pitted or not, and I don't think he did. I think if Lewis had pitted, which would probably mean Max stayed out to win track position, I think Masi would've made the same decision, and Lewis on fresh softs vs. fairly fresh hard would've had a big chance to overtake and win the race. Then people would complain that Max was robbed, and I'd be here with same arguments as I am now.
In any case, Masi didn't decide to 'fix a championship'. Just look back at the season, and you'll see decisions that have benefitted both drivers throughout.
Posted a picture earlier of the last of the stewards leaving the track. I think the other questions are answered in this and other posts I've made. Masi broke one procedure, not 'tons', and he followed others, I don't dispute that, neither does the FIA documents from the protest.
A fun fact regarding the regulations, if you care to read it, I'll put it in spoiler because it's quite long is that
The 15.3 that reads:
The clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultation with the Race Director. The Race
Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may
give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement:
[...]
e) The use of the safety car"
Seemed to have been put in that way explicitly to give the race director a safety clause.
When it entered the regulations back in 1994, it read:
The clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultation with the Race Director. The Race
Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may
give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement:
[...]
e) The use of the safety car"
Seemed to have been put in that way explicitly to give the race director a safety clause.
When it entered the regulations back in 1994, it read:
Notice how both sub-points d & e both exclude the part about 'accordance with the Code or Sporting Regulations,'
Had the wrong lap number in mind. I was trying to make a point earlier that if unlapping started on lap 56, lap 57 would be the 'following lap', and I mixed up the numbers for one of those posts because of that. Before the most recent of the quest posts, I went back to check the pictures posted earlier.
The last of the stewards leaving the track were shown on TV. The white stuff on the track were still there the following lap.
In any case, I rather the season be decided on a controversial last lap, then that they crashed in Abu Dhaabi, or because of the tire blowing up in Azerbaijan, Bottas damaging everyone's car in Hungary or anything like that. Ideally, there would be one more lap of racing so the decision wasn't controversial, and Lewis had taken a pit stop, so both would have fresh tires.
I think this whole Masi decision is quite amplified because it was the last race, but there have been so topics of discussions throughout the season. Even going back to the first race, there was a non-call for like 30 laps on Lewis cutting corners, and he won by 0.7 seconds. There are also several occurrences where they would've crashed if Lewis didn't yield, early on in the season Max won more points because of that. There are so many decisions that wouldn't have made the last lap of the season so decisive.
Even if we disagree on when the cars could unlap themselves, hopefully we can agree that Masi didn't make the decision he did purposely to let Max win.
Ridiculous claim.
Masi let only the cars between Hamilton amd Verstappen unlap themselves. He also didn't wait the extra lap which should've been done under the normal rules, which would've ended the race under safety car conditions if followed correctly. Also no pressure from Sainz who was closing in on Max because the cars between him and Max were not allowed to unlap themselves.
Your talk about "toys left in the pram" seems silly considering the outcome was fixed by the race director. Maybe you think this is normal? Do you know that letting only a limited number of cars unlap themselves has never happened before in F1?
How can teams plan strategy when the race director is not following protocol? It is pot luck (or pit luck if you like a pun).
Beat me to it.
Ahhh true colours shown.
You care more about personalities than the integrity of the sport.
I understand now.
Sorry for a long string of posts ArjenIsM3.
But I have to agree with this. I don't think there is any evidence of racism or homophobia dictating the farcical decisions made by Masi. They are bizarre but the motive is not known.
Il
I agree with pauldyson on this one.
You guys realize that the FIA has approved the anti-racism campaign Lewis pushed for a few years back, which now airs at the start of F1tv broadcast, and which is marked by all the drivers on the grid before every single race, and as the ruling body also reserves the right to reject any helmet design they chose to, like they did with Kvyat's helmet design in the past.
They wouldn't bend the rules because they don't like the guy who's the most recognizable currently competing in the sport.
If you look beyond the TV pictures, and pay a visit to the corporate websites of F1, our to a majority of their sponsors, F1 have launched a bunch of initiatives to promote diversity. They even sent out a survey just a month ago regarding that very issue.
It's difficult to have a serious discussion when so much of your post is misrepresentation or blatantly false. Nobody on the radio expected only the cars between Lewis and Max to be unlapped and nobody else - all of the radio chatter I've heard has been about how wrong it was.
Suggesting that 15.3 allows the race director to ignore any of the other rules regarding the safety car is just bizarre, as if that were the case then the entire rulebook around the SC could be replaced with "race director's discretion". This is the same race director who's on record as stating that the rules require all cars to unlap themselves and the safety car to come in at the end of the lap following the announcement.
We can't agree on your final statement either - Masi knew exactly what would happen, he made up the rules knowing that Max and only Max would benefit, and knowing that it was a guaranteed overtake. Given that he's on record and so had to change his mind to do this, it was either laughable incompetence or maliciousness, either way he should be long out of a job.
I'd much rather see the championship decided within the rules than outside them - punctures, accidents, all these things happen in motor racing. But after all the talk about it being decided on the track only to actually be decided in Masi's office, meh.
All I said is I don't think it's far fetched to think that something like that might play on the minds of those currently trying to extract maximum value out of their product.
The F1 paddock itself is a diverse place with people from all over the earth. As are the sponsors, fans etc. It's become a worldwide affair. But those actually making the decisions aren't.
Oh so you’re mental. You would rather it end in the controversy it did than other racing incidents or subjective calls. This objectively awful and outside of the regulations call is a preferable option for you. Yes ideally we would have had a fair race at the end that goes without saying, but to say this was preferable to other things that happen all the time is quite a crazy position to take. To each of your examples - Azerbaijan: tires fail occasionally, Lewis even finished a race with a blown up tire last season. Hungary: some people think Bottas did that in person which is crazy, but again crashes happen on the first corner quite regularly. The first race: other drivers were doing it and drivers always push the limits until they are told not to (see Alonso and Vettel), after Red Bull complained the field were told they couldn’t do it anymore. All of these are part and parcel of F1, some of them are bad refereeing decisions like we get in football. But the final lap on Sunday was just a mockery of the entire regulations and the sport itself. I don’t see how that is preferable - the most telling thing is how Riccardo and Lando (who have stronger ties to Max and Red Bull) thought it was ‘fecked up’. The only people who could see this as preferable would be Max
And no he didn’t purposefully give it to max in any sense of bias. However he did purposefully let max win for the sake of there being one last lap of racing. Everyone and their dog who has watched even one race of F1 knew that his decision results in Max winning 99/100 times. He even said to Toto ‘I let them go car racing’. No he didn’t, he let one car on fresh softs overtake a car on 40 lap old hards for the sake of the race not ending under a safety car as it should have.
You can talk about Merc not bringing Lewis in to put. Under the VSC it was the correct decision because by the end he was double digits out in front. They had managed the race perfectly. Under the actual safety car again, they made the right decision because the race should have ended under the safety car. If they had pitted and the regulations had been followed Lewis would have finished the race 2nd behind the safety car. Both teams had great strategies. Mercedes’ strategy would have won them the race if the regs were followed and Red Bull took risks in case the unthinkable happened.
And regarding the stewards leaving, we have that one shot of them making their way off the track, we didn’t see when the final steward left. Unless you can show when exactly the final steward was gone then your argument is entirely hypothetical. We have in the 57th lap Masi talking to Horner and saying ‘I’m just making sure the track is clear’. To which he got the reply ‘we just need one lap of racing’. And what did they get? Gifted the title for the sake of the spectacle.