Firmino or Martial...

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,065
Location
...
For me, the respective coverage of both of these players is yet another example of one player being rated more favourably because his team wins more matches.

I think both players share similarities - they are not your traditional 9s. The ‘goalscoring positions’ Martial is repeatedly critiqued for not getting into are not occupied by Firminho either. The ‘clever link play’ and ‘happy feet’ displayed by Firminho are also displayed by Martial. Firminho seems to regularly go through these ‘hasn’t scored for 8 games’ or ‘hasn’t scored at home for x months’ runs over the last couple of years, and very little is made of it.

Long and short - I think Martial is a slightly better version of Firminho, but the disparity in the coverage they receive is huge, with Firminho seen as some sort of genius. For the individual reputation of a player, it is so important to be part of a winning team. Martial is a better goalscorer for me, and is a younger player with more growth capacity. I hear people say that ‘of the Liverpool front 3, Salah is the most replaceable’, which is a nonsense to me.
 

Hammondo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
2,203
I think they are very different players and I think Firminho is without a doubt better.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
25,463
They play completely different roles. Firmino is like attacking midfielder with engine for a CM.

It all depends on set up. For Liverpool Firmino is best suited as Salah and Mane are goal scorers, for ManUtd we need Martial more than Firmino.
 
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
5,851
Location
Manchester
They are different players. Both have their qualities. I’d say Firmino is the better player, but it could just be they he benefits hugely from Liverpool’s system.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
13,147
Location
Flagg
Firminho is hugely overated due to being in a succesful team, but they aren't really similar players.

Firminho is a team player. He isn't in goal scoring positions but he will drop deep or move into areas that create space for the other forwards. It's selfless play. Not really the same as Martial spending 90% of a game lingering on the left wing instead of helping the team, because he wants to cut inside and shoot.

I think Martial has done well this season for the most part but he still seems to be learning how to play as a centre forward.
 

Massive Spanner

Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
16,144
Location
Tool shed
Firmino is largely carried by the goal output of Salah and Mane. If he was in a team where he was expected to be a more prolific striker then he wouldn't be rated nearly as highly.
 

youngrell

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Messages
1,622
Location
South Wales
Firmino is viewed favourably because of the graft he puts in on top of his quality touches. But Martial has more quality in front of goal and is better with the ball at his feet.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
26,939
How is Firmino for Brazil? I often wonder how good he'd look without Mane/Salah.
 

12OunceEpilogue

In perfect harmony
Scout
Joined
Oct 2, 2016
Messages
11,160
Location
Wigan
Outside of Liverpool's system he'd probably not be as effective, but Firmino suits Klopp, Mane, Salah, Robertson and TAA down to a tee. The truth is neither United nor Liverpool fans would swap because each side has more of a use for the player they already have.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,065
Location
...
Firminho is hugely overated due to being in a succesful team, but they aren't really similar players.

Firminho is a team player. He isn't in goal scoring positions but he will drop deep or move into areas that create space for the other forwards. It's selfless play. Not really the same as Martial spending 90% of a game lingering on the left wing instead of helping the team, because he wants to cut inside and shoot.

I think Martial has done well this season for the most part but he still seems to be learning how to play as a centre forward.
That’s not really a fair or accurate reflection though. When, like Firminho, Martial plays in the centre of a front 3 (which has been rare due to injury) - his link play is similarly top notch. Hence the ‘Martial is our most important attacker’ thread. He was knitting things together up top and linking with Rashford and James very well. People were referring to him as a ‘false 9’. Due to Rashford’s injury, we could barely rub two other decent attackers together, and he has been played in a 2 more often.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
21,155
Location
Moscow
Spelling aside, I struggle to see how they are comparable. Martial is quite neat with his link up, but Firmino is on a different level — and his most important quality is his movement off the ball and spatial awareness. He’s also Liverpool’s pressing trigger, and we all know how important pressing is to Klopp’s playing style. Martial is a player that’s focused on goalscoring and his movement is usually based on that, while Firmino cares more about team’s structure.

Firmino would’ve been compared to Lingard, if the latter was any good. Add some brains and around 30 goals + assists per season to Lingardinho and you’ll get Firmino.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,065
Location
...
Spelling aside, I struggle to see how they are comparable. Martial is quite neat with his link up, but Firmino is on a different level — and his most important quality is his movement off the ball and spatial awareness. He’s also Liverpool’s pressing trigger, and we all know how important pressing is to Klopp’s playing style. Martial is a player that’s focused on goalscoring and his movement is usually based on that, while Firmino cares more about team’s structure.

Firmino would’ve been compared to Lingard, if the latter was any good. Add some brains and around 30 goals + assists per season to Lingardinho and you’ll get Firmino.
That’s odd, especially given the frequency with which I read that Martial doesn’t get into goalscoring positions and how he drops too deep. He’s a link striker. He’s just had nobody to link with of late, but when he’s with Rashford and James - he’s slipping them in all day.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
21,360
AM9 until my dying breath
 

Denis' cuff

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
7,357
Location
here
Can’t be arsed with the comparison but Tone is smiling. When Tone is smiling , he is happy and enjoying his football. See his body language after the final whistle. He was not only tracking back but tackling. He is scoring goals that other players don’t score. For me, his attitude has stunk the place out in the past but Ole is getting comraderie and method in the squad together. Would love to see this fella become the player he should be.
 

Jacckk1985

Thinks we should ban Niall
Newbie
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
483
Location
Estonia
Very different style of players, who have different roles. Both are quality though!
 

koop

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
357
I still don't know what to think of Martial.
I have no faith in watching him, then he pulls out moments of brilliance which can lead or get goals.
Sometimes he disappears and does his Pogba jogging impression and puts literal 0 effort into jumping or getting headers.
Other times like yesterday he wins every header and puts in more effort.

I guess it's inconsistency? I have no idea.
 
  • Like
Reactions: golden_blunder

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
21,155
Location
Moscow
That’s odd, especially given the frequency with which I read that Martial doesn’t get into goalscoring positions and how he drops too deep. He’s a link striker. He’s just had nobody to link with of late, but when he’s with Rashford and James - he’s slipping them in all day.
I’d say that his trademark move is a one-two that gets him into a goalscoring position, although he’s quite good at one-touch interplay in and around the box. Firmino exploits opposition’s weaknesses with his movement and has a wider range of skills that allows him to influence the game from a deeper position or from an either wing.

Martial is often criticized for him movement and his movement is mostly focused on goalscoring. It’s not a contradiction — if he was better at it, he would’ve been a world class player already, while at the moment he’s still a very talented prospect in a good form.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
12,846
Firmino is arguably Liverpool's most important player. He's their Tevez. His doesn't often stand out but his workrate, movement and link play keep teams pinned and allow Salah and Mane to do their thing.

Martial will pop up from time to time with a brilliant piece of play but he doesn't occupy defences for 90 minutes the way Firmino does.

If we had two 20 goal a season forwards on either side of him I'd rather Firmino, but as it is we need Martial's goalscoring and running into the box more.
 

TRUERED89

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
2,365
Location
England
I still don't know what to think of Martial.
I have no faith in watching him, then he pulls out moments of brilliance which can lead or get goals.
Sometimes he disappears and does his Pogba jogging impression and puts literal 0 effort into jumping or getting headers.
Other times like yesterday he wins every header and puts in more effort.

I guess it's inconsistency? I have no idea.
Last few games, he's been really working hard defensively (tracking back, clearing crosses/corners, pressing). Whilst also chipping in with goals, cant ask for more than that (Ole must be speaking with him about this). #MartialFC, we love you Tony!! You've been injured and also had to play with JLingz & Andreas as your service and still performed brilliantly this season.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,065
Location
...
Firmino is arguably Liverpool's most important player. He's their Tevez. His doesn't often stand out but his workrate, movement and link play keep teams pinned and allow Salah and Mane to do their thing.

Martial will pop up from time to time with a brilliant piece of play but he doesn't occupy defences for 90 minutes the way Firmino does.

If we had two 20 goal a season forwards on either side of him I'd rather Firmino, but as it is we need Martial's goalscoring and running into the box more.
I watched Liverpool’s game against Bournemouth on Saturday and Firmino barely occupied their defence for 5 minutes let alone 90. But Salah and Mané scored and Liverpool won, and all was forgotten. He doesn’t join the party nearly as often as implied. When he does, the implication is that he offers that all game every game.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
3,100
Location
Ireland
I watched Liverpool’s game against Bournemouth on Saturday and Firmino barely occupied their defence for 5 minutes let alone 90. But Salah and Mané scored and Liverpool won, and all was forgotten. He doesn’t join the party nearly as often as implied. When he does, the implication is that he offers that all game every game.
The grass is always greener. People go on about opposition players like they're gods.
 

NewGlory

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2019
Messages
1,598
Martial is an exceptional talent. I think he got completely screwed over by Mourinho (there's a surname with a genuine "h" in it) when Martial was ready to go firing on all cylinders as #9, only to see Mou bring-in Zlatan, unceremoniously strip Tony off #9 shirt and move him to the flank. Humiliation and confidence hit aside, it set Tony back by couple years, playing out of position and generally hindering his development.

I would say Tony, in his current great form and if he keeps it up consistently, is every bit as good as the best of the strikers at EPL, including Firmino. Like others noted here, Klopp's structure may prefer Firmino, but I would never swap current-form Tony for Firmino, for us.

The grass is always greener. People go on about opposition players like they're gods.
So true. We were all pissed at De Gea against Everton, just to watch how Ederson cost City both of the goals yesterday.
 

Irrational.

Full Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
27,113
Location
LVG's notebook
At the moment, I'd say Firmino is the better player purely from a consistency point of view.

Martial has the potential to be twice the player.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
2,834
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
Talent wise Martial but in terms of quality right now can't be above Firmino.

Firmino has been performing at a great level for 3 seasons now while Martial has struggled throughout his time at Manchester for consistency.

Right now I would rather have Firmino, you know what you're getting and it's an all round performance that let's you have flexibility in your team. Martial has the potential to be better but right now you aren't even sure where you play him because he hasn't shown consistently great performances at LW or ST.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
12,846
I watched Liverpool’s game against Bournemouth on Saturday and Firmino barely occupied their defence for 5 minutes let alone 90. But Salah and Mané scored and Liverpool won, and all was forgotten. He doesn’t join the party nearly as often as implied. When he does, the implication is that he offers that all game every game.
So you watched one game and decided he's overrated? Come on now, you know that's not how it works. Firmino has performed consistently for a long time now.
 

TRUERED89

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
2,365
Location
England
Martial is an exceptional talent. I think he got completely screwed over by Mourinho (there's a surname with a genuine "h" in it) when Martial was ready to go firing on all cylinders as #9, only to see Mou bring-in Zlatan, unceremoniously strip Tony off #9 shirt and move him to the flank. Humiliation and confidence hit aside, it set Tony back by couple years, playing out of position and generally hindering his development.

I would say Tony, in his current great form and if he keeps it up consistently, is every bit as good as the best of the strikers at EPL, including Firmino. Like others noted here, Klopp's structure may prefer Firmino, but I would never swap current-form Tony for Firmino, for us.



So true. We were all pissed at De Gea against Everton, just to watch how Ederson cost City both of the goals yesterday.
I guess maybe Ederson didn't expect him to hit it on the volley like that, and he got caught off guard.. Lovely connection with it by Tony, great goal even if it looked soft from City's perspective.
 

Santoryo

ripping the reward
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
5,141
That’s not really a fair or accurate reflection though. When, like Firminho, Martial plays in the centre of a front 3 (which has been rare due to injury) - his link play is similarly top notch. Hence the ‘Martial is our most important attacker’ thread. He was knitting things together up top and linking with Rashford and James very well. People were referring to him as a ‘false 9’. Due to Rashford’s injury, we could barely rub two other decent attackers together, and he has been played in a 2 more often.
Well said. People have short memories. These days I'm seeing posts claiming that Martial has no hold up play, absolutely ridiculous. Like you mentioned Martial was rightfully called our most important player in attack when Rashford was around because he'd drop deep in midfield and try to link up with runners in Rashford and james. Our midfield of Lingard or Perreira was obviously hopeless and Martial dropping deep was very important for us.

People on these same boards were raving about his role and the way he seemed to approach the number 9 role because it was beneficial for the team. Now here you have people claiming he didn't do such and he's a selfish player who want to play on the wing because he wants to cut inside and shoot for himself.

As for Firmino himself, like mentioned it's a case of one player being judged favorably while the other isn't. Everything about what he does is overrated, his contribution and play on the ball are overstated to make up for his lacks of goals. The way people talk about his play one would think he's playing on Messi's level. Martial has not only shown better output but he also has footballing ability in him to complement.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,065
Location
...
So you watched one game and decided he's overrated? Come on now, you know that's not how it works. Firmino has performed consistently for a long time now.
Tbh, I’ve been on the caf long enough to know that someone was going to make this response, so it’s my fault.

Do you believe I’ve watched Firmino for the first time two days ago? Did my opening post indicate an opinion formed over one game? Is it absolutely necessary for me to point out that I am referencing a game as an example?

The entire point I’m making is that Firmino has NOT performed ‘consistently’ for a long time. Liverpool have. Within that, Firmino has performed inconsistently for a long time, and even been dropped at a point. Overall team narrative is always bigger than an individual. I think a lot of the media simply don’t pay attention to it, why would you overly critique a player’s performance after a victory? So what happens is that every now and then, Firmino does something special, or has a great game, and it’s as if they cannot process the infrequency - which is why they regularly start a ‘he is so ubeer rated in comparison to Mané and Salah’ conversation. He’s not underrated at all. That conversation didn’t reoccur after his performance on Saturday, and generally, hasn’t occurred for weeks. When he next flicks the ball over a defender’s head, it will start again. He’s not underrated at all, it is all of these weeks like the run he’s in now which are why he is rated as he should be. Weeks that the other two don’t have nearly as frequently. If he was as good as Mané and Salah, he’d be as good as Mané and Salah.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
12,846
Tbh, I’ve been on the caf long enough to know that someone was going to make this response, so it’s my fault.

Do you believe I’ve watched Firmino for the first time two days ago? Did my opening post indicate an opinion formed over one game? Is it absolutely necessary for me to point out that I am referencing a game as an example?

The entire point I’m making is that Firmino has NOT performed ‘consistently’ for a long time. Liverpool have. Within that, Firmino has performed inconsistently for a long time, and even been dropped at a point. Overall team narrative is always bigger than an individual. I think a lot of the media simply don’t pay attention to it, why would you overly critique a player’s performance after a victory? So what happens is that every now and then, Firmino does something special, or has a great game, and it’s as if they cannot process the infrequency - which is why they regularly start a ‘he is so ubeer rated in comparison to Mané and Salah’ conversation. He’s not underrated at all. That conversation didn’t reoccur after his performance on Saturday, and generally, hasn’t occurred for weeks. When he next flicks the ball over a defender’s head, it will start again. He’s not underrated at all, it is all of these weeks like the run he’s in now which are why he is rated as he should be. Weeks that the other two don’t have nearly as frequently. If he was as good as Mané and Salah, he’d be as good as Mané and Salah.
I dont think you watched him for the first time yesterday, but you certainly seemed like you are basing your whole opinion of the most current game you watched.

The bolded is what i disagree with. When i watch Liverpool Firmino performs consistently and is always doing the job he is there to do (which is not flicking a ball over somebody's head). Its the poor games that are the anomalies.
 

Santoryo

ripping the reward
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
5,141
Also people claiming that Martial is a player only focused on goal while Firmino isn't(therefore trying to explain why the former is a better goalscorer than the latter) are either being disingenuous or don't watch enough games to see how factually incorrect they are. How many times have we read on this forums about people lamenting about Martial not being in the box enough but instead drop deep in midfield or goes to the wing?

Most people in here know and are aware Martial isn't a pure out and out strikers who focuses on goal, that's not his game and it is something some folks have been moaning about on these very same boards. Martial is a player who also focuses on linking up play, holding up the ball, contribute to the build up as well, it just happens he's a more prolific goal scorer than Firmino.

Just because Martial scores goals doesn't mean he lacks, other qualities because that's simply not true. In an effort to have Firmino this player on a completely different level to Martial, some people have convinced themselves that Martial doesn't have good link play and other on the ball ability to make up for Firmino inferiority when it comes to being a prolific goalscorer. In some people's head it's basically "Martial is a better goalscorer than Firmino, therefore he doesn't/mustn't have good all around ball playing ability which Firmino makes up in".

Martial is both a baller and a scorer.