Firmino or Martial...

cyril C

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For me, the respective coverage of both of these players is yet another example of one player being rated more favourably because his team wins more matches.

I think both players share similarities - they are not your traditional 9s. The ‘goalscoring positions’ Martial is repeatedly critiqued for not getting into are not occupied by Firminho either. The ‘clever link play’ and ‘happy feet’ displayed by Firminho are also displayed by Martial. Firminho seems to regularly go through these ‘hasn’t scored for 8 games’ or ‘hasn’t scored at home for x months’ runs over the last couple of years, and very little is made of it.

Long and short - I think Martial is a slightly better version of Firminho, but the disparity in the coverage they receive is huge, with Firminho seen as some sort of genius. For the individual reputation of a player, it is so important to be part of a winning team. Martial is a better goalscorer for me, and is a younger player with more growth capacity. I hear people say that ‘of the Liverpool front 3, Salah is the most replaceable’, which is a nonsense to me.
I am sorry, you are using 2 completely different example. How many goals did Firminho scored? His contribution is on his link up play and assistance to Salah and Mane, and being able to score some important goals in key games. Firminho is useful but to Liverpool only. Had we kept Lukaku, then it might be a better comparison but this is another story.
 

kafta

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Clearly Tony has had the better season. If he can maintain this upward trajectory and keep doing what he's been doing, he's the better player.

I think Martial's ceiling level is higher than Firmino, but i hope he reaches that level. Having better players around him has definitely helped.
 

buckooo1978

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Martial is world class, Firmino is not.

Based on the last year it shouldnt even be a question.

I only wish Martial hadn't his development affected by that prick Mourinho... we might have seen this player 2/3 years ago
 

dogwithabone

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It’s no contest right now but Firmino has been more consistent than Martial. Martial‘s problem has been inconsistency, the quality has been there from day one. Martial can become world class over the next couple of seasons, Firmino is never getting anywhere near that level.
 

Joff

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Outside of Liverpool's system he'd probably not be as effective, but Firmino suits Klopp, Mane, Salah, Robertson and TAA down to a tee. The truth is neither United nor Liverpool fans would swap because each side has more of a use for the player they already have.
This is the correct sensible reply.
 

Drygon

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They're different players, Firminho seems to me as a Benzema type more a creative player rather than a killer. He wont get 20 goals per season but his help in the overall play of the team is really valuable.
Wait, what?


Benzema has scored 20+ goals for almost 10 seasons despite being 3rd wheel in Real Madrid's offense throughout most of his prime years. Never mind that Benzema never took free-kicks & almost no penalties to inflate his goals tally.

Also, Benzema has made 57 goals + 25 assists since Cristiano left & won LaLiga for Real Madrid. Benzema single-handedly carried their offense without support. I think Vinicius was the 2nd leasing scorer among Real Madrid attackers with 3 LaLiga goals.

It's disrespectful that Benzema gets compared to Firmino.
 

SAFMUTD

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Wait, what?


Benzema has scored 20+ goals for almost 10 seasons despite being 3rd wheel in Real Madrid's offense throughout most of his prime years. Never mind that Benzema never took free-kicks & almost no penalties to inflate his goals tally.

Also, Benzema has made 57 goals + 25 assists since Cristiano left & won LaLiga for Real Madrid. Benzema single-handedly carried their offense without support. I think Vinicius was the 2nd leasing scorer among Real Madrid attackers with 3 LaLiga goals.

It's disrespectful that Benzema gets compared to Firmino.
I didnt said Firminho was in the same bracket as Benzema, he's clearly not, but their styles are similar in the way that they are "creative strikers" that great part of their job y to distribute the ball which is not a typical thing to do for a striker.
 

dal

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100 per cent firmino, lets see Martial have another good season first guys, embarrassing.
 

Superunknown

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We're mostly going to be biased and are going to say Martial. But, team bias aside, it has to be Martial anyway. I really don't see the impenetrable aura that seems to surround Firmino amongst pundits and Liverpool fans. He seems to miss loads of chances and with only 9 league goals in 38 league games whilst playing as a central striker, it's hard to justify. I see a lot of talk about his "sacrifices and selfless" play allowing Mane and Salah to score goals, which I don't personally buy. A striker's main job is to score goals. You would expect a top striker in a team going for titles to be scoring goals and doing all of this extra stuff alongside it, the work rate, the setting up of others, the hold-up play, etc.

Martial, all day long.
 

E-mal

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100 per cent firmino, lets see Martial have another good season first guys, embarrassing.
What's embarrassing is thinking your opinion is superior and using the word embarrassing to suggest ours is not.
 

Santoryo

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100 per cent firmino, lets see Martial have another good season first guys, embarrassing.
Hopefully you never get promoted and signs are looking good since it seems like you've been around for 7 years yet still remain a newbie.
 

dal

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It is embarrassing, I don’t mean to cause any offence but if this was a Liverpool forum we would be saying that.

They have just won the league and the champions league before that and firmino was a a key component of it.

We would all be laughing if they suggested martial whose had his first outstanding season for 4/5 years was better.
 

dal

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Hopefully you never get promoted and signs are looking good since it seems like you've been around for 7 years yet still remain a newbie.
Well Santorini, if we do this like goals per minute, I’ve had a reaction score every 50 messages and yours is every 400 (being kind) however maybe like martial, this is your season to up that!
 

Amar__

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Nicked this from Facebook:

Roberto Firmino has 1 goal in his last 20 Premier League games. But he’s not a pure striker, he’s more of a defensive samba overlapping auxiliary trequaetista pseudo regista libero sweeper keeper bananenflanke introverted raumdeuter out and out stopper 12th man vianema center wing catenaccio mercurial left handed target offside trap type of player.
 

Dirty Schwein

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Nicked this from Facebook:

Roberto Firmino has 1 goal in his last 20 Premier League games. But he’s not a pure striker, he’s more of a defensive samba overlapping auxiliary trequaetista pseudo regista libero sweeper keeper bananenflanke introverted raumdeuter out and out stopper 12th man vianema center wing catenaccio mercurial left handed target offside trap type of player.
:lol:

I saw this below exchange on the fantasy league thread:

User 1: can anyone recommend a defender that plays a bit higher up the pitch like Dallas or Digne.

User 2: Firminho
 

Brwned

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Firmink's went from being one of their most important players and an important starter for Brazil in the Copa America to being at risk of replaced for both in the next year. Has some great qualities but the weaknesses can only be ignored in exceptional conditions and they're unlikely to be maintained.

But then Martial's still a step behind that. He could go on to be a pivotal player for us but he's not there, nor can he justify a place in the France team yet. So the respective coverage seems fair.
 

RashyForPM

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Firmink's went from being one of their most important players and an important starter for Brazil in the Copa America to being at risk of replaced for both in the next year. Has some great qualities but the weaknesses can only be ignored in exceptional conditions and they're unlikely to be maintained.

But then Martial's still a step behind that. He could go on to be a pivotal player for us but he's not there, nor can he justify a place in the France team yet. So the respective coverage seems fair.
Better than Firmino :D
 

calodo2003

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Nicked this from Facebook:

Roberto Firmino has 1 goal in his last 20 Premier League games. But he’s not a pure striker, he’s more of a defensive samba overlapping auxiliary trequaetista pseudo regista libero sweeper keeper bananenflanke introverted raumdeuter out and out stopper 12th man vianema center wing catenaccio mercurial left handed target offside trap type of player.
I can’t read through this in one go without laughing.

Never heard of ‘bananenflanke,’ initially thought it was a cereal.
 

Grande

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Nicked this from Facebook:

Roberto Firmino has 1 goal in his last 20 Premier League games. But he’s not a pure striker, he’s more of a defensive samba overlapping auxiliary trequaetista pseudo regista libero sweeper keeper bananenflanke introverted raumdeuter out and out stopper 12th man vianema center wing catenaccio mercurial left handed target offside trap type of player.
Auxiliary Bananenflanke does sound a bit perverse.
 

Adisa

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Nicked this from Facebook:

Roberto Firmino has 1 goal in his last 20 Premier League games. But he’s not a pure striker, he’s more of a defensive samba overlapping auxiliary trequaetista pseudo regista libero sweeper keeper bananenflanke introverted raumdeuter out and out stopper 12th man vianema center wing catenaccio mercurial left handed target offside trap type of player.
:lol:
 

KennyBurner

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Firmink's went from being one of their most important players and an important starter for Brazil in the Copa America to being at risk of replaced for both in the next year. Has some great qualities but the weaknesses can only be ignored in exceptional conditions and they're unlikely to be maintained.

But then Martial's still a step behind that. He could go on to be a pivotal player for us but he's not there, nor can he justify a place in the France team yet. So the respective coverage seems fair.
Stop deceiving yourself. Martial is not a step behind firmino. Martial has started slowly and that’s just it. You guys are always so quick to disregard our better players.
 

tenpoless

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Who said that Firmino was more important than Salah again? I swear I saw it.
The only striker who could play like a midfielder since the age of ancient Egypt. His name is Bobby, Bobby Firmino. Allez Allez Allez.

Martial any day.
 
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Rozay

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Stop deceiving yourself. Martial is not a step behind firmino. Martial has started slowly and that’s just it. You guys are always so quick to disregard our better players.
Even then, he’s started no slower than Bobby No Goals, who has just been his usual self. He’ll score a goal at some point, maybe in December, and the commentators will again gush about ‘Liverpool’s Bobby Dazzler’.
 

KennyBurner

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Even then, he’s started no slower than Bobby No Goals, who has just been his usual self. He’ll score a goal at some point, maybe in December, and the commentators will again gush about ‘Liverpool’s Bobby Dazzler’.
Imagine thinking martial is a “step” behind firmino. Awful take.
 

Offside

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Firmino is still a player who does the simple things very well. Those players win you league titles. United have too many players like Rashford, Pogba, Martial who are capable of as much if not more magic than Firmino but they cannot do the simple things well and make things far too difficult.
 

DWelbz19

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Firmino is still a player who does the simple things very well. Those players win you league titles. United have too many players like Rashford, Pogba, Martial who are capable of as much if not more magic than Firmino but they cannot do the simple things well and make things far too difficult.
You’ll start to see less praise for the “simple things” now Liverpool have so many key players injured and are in their worst form for about 2 and a half years. The “simple things” get you passes when you have the best GK, best CB, and two best wingers in the league in the side alongside you.
 

Offside

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You’ll start to see less praise for the “simple things” now Liverpool have so many key players injured and are in their worst form for about 2 and a half years. The “simple things” get you passes when you have the best GK, best CB, and two best wingers in the league in the side alongside you.
Nope the “simple things” are what win you league titles. Firmino is a very effective player regardless of who he’s playing with. There’s a reason Pogba only ever looks good when he’s got players around him who are simple and effective like Kante. If anything it’s the opposite, Firmino is allowing those around him to play better and express themselves more.
 

Brwned

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Stop deceiving yourself. Martial is not a step behind firmino. Martial has started slowly and that’s just it. You guys are always so quick to disregard our better players.
It'd be a weird kind of self deception. Martial is one of my favourite players in the post-Fergie era and I thought he'd potentially go on to he a world class player if we sold him to Spurs around the time it was floated. I think he's great, at least compared to most of his team mates. But he's not world class yet, and it is the case that he hasn't shown even glimpses of being world class for his national team. In certain conditions for us he's shown glimpses but there are still some questions.

Firmino for a good while was close to world class, in the perfect setup. He's not there now obviously, but he still does a lot of things more consistently than Martial. Maybe he would be exceptional at Liverpool but it can't be denied that he doesn't have the same levels of energy and aggression, and that's been fundamental in Klopp's attack.
 

AltiUn

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Klopp was gagging for Werner this summer, wonder who he was thinking of replacing in that Liverpool front 3.
 

DWelbz19

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I thought the abysmal end to last season and start to this season would make people see clearly on Firmino. Evidently, it hasn’t.

Firmino isn’t some selfless paragon with his “simple things” making him a key component to all things Liverpool do well. He’s a player who took the third most shots last season for the strongest team in the league and only scored 9 goals. All the things people say he does do... he just really doesn’t!

As I say, you’ll start to see less and less praise for No Goals Bobby (who is even regressing further into No Impact Bobby) now that Liverpool are in a bit of a rut, and the problems can’t be masked by Van Dijk and Alisson performing fantastic performances defensively or Salah/Mane pulling goals out of hats. Certain of it.
 

Bebestation

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Why would Martial look useful for France?

The guy is one of the most systematic players I have ever seen - needing the front line to be built in a way that suits him.

We saw the exact same thing with Firmino- he looks utter crap when people looked at him as a pure forward but he became much better when he was made to play deeper and in a way that got the best out of him.

Martial isnt a predatory striker who makes runs before the opposition defence see it- but instead a very valuable dribbling ability, hold up play and creative ability alongside a good ability to finish chances whenever he gets to the right spaces. That dribbling ability is best playing from deep so he gets in to a momentum before deciding whether to take the defence on by himself or pass to the inverted forwards who will be clinical ( Mane & Salah, Rashford & Greenwood).

Last season before Pogba came in to the team and we were playing Fred &Mctomminay- our front line was doing the right thing with Rashford and Greenwood as the inverted forwards that ran in behind the defence whilst Martial had the ability to link the play together.

For some reason this season we have Rashford & Greenwood playing so deep trying to be creative to Martial when it should obviously be the other way around.

Firmino is a decent player but needs the right system to make him work not just to the benefit of him but to the benefit of his whole team especially the inverted forwards. Martial is no different in my eyes.
 

harms

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bananenflanke
I love that this is still a thing :drool:

Never heard of ‘bananenflanke,’ initially thought it was a cereal.
I'm not sure how often it's mentioned nowadays, but this term had created arguably the greatest tactical quote of all-time:

(Hans Hrubesh when asked on how did their partnership with Manfred Kaltz, a player for whom this term was originally invented, work)
'Manni Banane, ich Kopf, Tor' ('Manni banana, I head, goal')
 

United58

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Nicked this from Facebook:

Roberto Firmino has 1 goal in his last 20 Premier League games. But he’s not a pure striker, he’s more of a defensive samba overlapping auxiliary trequaetista pseudo regista libero sweeper keeper bananenflanke introverted raumdeuter out and out stopper 12th man vianema center wing catenaccio mercurial left handed target offside trap type of player.
:lol:

I saw this below exchange on the fantasy league thread:

User 1: can anyone recommend a defender that plays a bit higher up the pitch like Dallas or Digne.

User 2: Firminho
:lol: :lol: