Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

stevoc

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1) I believe the answer to be Yes Qatar does have such laws and a very likely the long tradition of discrimination that goes along with it.
Ok great, so we both agree we have people engaging in homophobic behaviour in a homophobic country.

'When in Rome'

2) No, I don’t think so. I believe we are underestimating the magnitude of homophobia in some segments of Western society, specially in football... The Qatari regime being what it is and acting in this way (banning rainbow flags..) probably gives the bigots around the world some validation for their homophobic views, but it is from far being the main issue.
Fifa are cn’ts but UEFA wasn't that brave either last summer.
Indeed.

I dont know if people are blaming Qatar for the homophobic chants as much as saying that its kind of a safespace for homophobes (in the fandoms of all national sides) to express themselves more openly with less fear of some sort of repercussion.
Bingo.
 

BD

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Not a bad start - would be cool if they did something similar (or more) for the rest of the games.

Let's remind ourselves what Southgate said:

I do understand FIFA's situation in that you can set a precedent and it's difficult where to draw the line.
 

Reditus

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just seen this now, also the ref went and checked Neuer's armband too

Not shown live on TV apparently? I missed start of the game
 

RacingClub

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Well, according to the Danish FA they were threatened with more than a yellow. Apparently match bans or worse were being mentioned by FIFA.
Also maybe they didn't feel it was fair to individualize a collective protest.

I think folks on here were far too quick to jump on the players backs when nobody knew the things happening behind the scenes.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Also maybe they didn't feel it was fair to individualize a collective protest.

I think folks on here were far too quick to jump on the players backs when nobody knew the things happening behind the scenes.
The captain wearing the armband is just one person. This is the whole team protesting. Wonder if FIFA will make themselves look even more out of touch by fining the German FA.
 

RacingClub

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The captain wearing the armband is just one person. This is the whole team protesting.
Yes exactly, the team maybe felt it was unfair to expect Neuer to take the yellow alone (wearing the armband) so this was adjudged to be a better collective protest.

Which I think it is.

It also shows that they have the collective backing of their FA, which I don't think the English and Dutch sides do.
 

SilentWitness

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Also maybe they didn't feel it was fair to individualize a collective protest.

I think folks on here were far too quick to jump on the players backs when nobody knew the things happening behind the scenes.
Not really. The English, Dutch and Danish didn't do anything apart from make shite comments. The Germans have followed through with a protest and message.
 

Marwood

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These are all good words from the pundits but the very thing they're complaining about,protests without risks, they themselves are doing.

Why are they there? They're not BBC or ITV employess, they're all freelance. They're all plenty rich enough to say no thanks.

Just makes everything they say a bit hollow.
 

RacingClub

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The Germans have followed through with a protest and message.
They seem to have the backing of their FA though, which may not be the case with the other teams.

Have the FAs of those nations made a similar statement to the German FAs?
 

SilentWitness

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They seem to have the backing of their FA though, which may not be the case with the other teams.

Have the FAs of those nations made a similar statement to the German FAs?
Doesn't appear like it, but they shouldn't need the backing of anyone if they care about the message or protest. Clearly all the Germans do care, which is good to see.
 

SilentWitness

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These are all good words from the pundits but the very thing they're complaining about,protests without risks, they themselves are doing.

Why are they there? They're not BBC or ITV employess, they're all freelance. They're all plenty rich enough to say no thanks.

Just makes everything they say a bit hollow.
And if they don't go then who does? People who might say nothing. I'd rather have pundits who are hypocritical by being there standing up and saying the right things than pundits that keep quiet. Like the players, the pundits are in a position where they can use their positions as people who are being broadcast to millions to share their voice or message. Wright and Keane are saying and doing the right things.
 

RacingClub

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Doesn't appear like it, but they shouldn't need the backing of anyone if they care about the message or protest.
Well then the players of those national sides are being scapegoated due to decisions made above their pay grade IMO.

I commend the German FAs approach and condemn the others but I'm hesitant to criticize the players who the FAs are using as human shields over this topic.
 

SilentWitness

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Well then the players of those national sides are being scapegoated due to decisions made above their pay grade IMO.

I commend the German FAs approach and condemn the others but I'm hesitant to criticize the players who the FAs are using as human shields over this topic.
The English or Dutch FA aren't going to send Kane or VVD home. They can push more for what they want but they clearly don't want to push the topic further as is shown in their comments post-match.
 

Marwood

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And if they don't go then who does? People who might say nothing. I'd rather have pundits who are hypocritical by being there standing up and saying the right things than pundits that keep quiet. Like the players, the pundits are in a position where they can use their positions as people who are being broadcast to millions to share their voice or message. Wright and Keane are saying and doing the right things.
Do you honestly think Keane and Wright are there because if they don't go they're worried the replacements won't say anything?

Or are they there because of the huge amount of money they're about to be paid?
 

SilentWitness

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Do you honestly think Keane and Wright are there because if they don't go they're worried the replacements won't say anything?

Or are they there because of the huge amount of money they're about to be paid?
When did I say that?
 

Duafc

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Do you honestly think Keane and Wright are there because if they don't go they're worried the replacements won't say anything?

Or are they there because of the huge amount of money they're about to be paid?
Yeah, only those with 100% proven, unbiased, altruistic motives should be listened to. Better to be completely silent on the issues than be even 1% hypocritical or nuanced.

So basically no one.

That's the way forward.
 

RacingClub

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The English or Dutch FA aren't going to send Kane or VVD home. They can push more for what they want but they clearly don't want to push the topic further as is shown in their comments post-match.
Well of course they won't send Kane etc home but all we know so far (thanks to the Danish press conference) is that FIFA threatened participating FAs with vague punishments (which may or not be limited to yellow cards) for players who wore the armband.

The armband was abandoned by all participating FAs due to these vague threatened punishments and the Players have been wheeled out to absorb the fallout by their respective FAs and forced into giving their reaction to a situation that they probably don't fully understand (I doubt they are present when these decisions are being made).

The only FA who hasn't thrown their players under the bus (as far as I've seen) is the German FA, which I commend them for.

So while I understand people focusing on the players I think their anger is misguided and they should be lambasting their FAs rather than the people that are wheeled out to justify their FAs actions.

To be honest I'm struggling with the overall logic of it being ok for the FA to decide to participate in Qatar and the (players to decide to play for their county in Qatar) because there will be penalties for non participation etc..

But now when another penalty is announced and the FA and Players bow down it's supposed to be this outrageous decision that abandons all their morals etc.

Isn't it just the logical conclusion of the abandonment of their own principles/ morals that allowed them to participate in this tournament to begin with?
 

SilentWitness

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Well of course they won't send Kane etc home but all we know so far (thanks to the Danish press conference) is that FIFA threatened participating FAs with vague punishments (which may or not be limited to yellow cards) for players who wore the armband.

The armband was abandoned by all participating FAs due to these vague threatened punishments and the Players have been wheeled out to absorb the fallout by their respective FAs and forced into giving their reaction to a situation that they probably don't fully understand (I doubt they are present when these decisions are being made).

The only FA who hasn't thrown their players under the bus (as far as I've seen) is the German FA, which I commend them for.

So while I understand people focusing on the players I think their anger is misguided and they should be lambasting their FAs rather than the people that are wheeled out to justify their FAs actions.

To be honest I'm struggling with the overall logic of it being ok for the FA to decide to participate in Qatar and the (players to decide to play for their county in Qatar) because there will be penalties for non participation etc..

But now when another penalty is announced and the FA and Players bow down it's supposed to be this outrageous decision that abandons all their morals etc.


Isn't it just the logical conclusion of the abandonment of their own principles/ morals that allowed them to participate in this tournament to begin with?
They never said they weren't going to go to Qatar. They always said they were going. They said they were going to wear the armband, they didn't follow through with that. That's the difference.

While Germany didn't either, they have still sent a message in a different manner. They've avoided the punishment for the armband by doing a different protest which may still see them reprimanded.

I direct my anger/disappointment at both players and the FA. If you don't have the courage to follow through with your words then don't say them. The Germans have been helped by the support of their FA, of course, but members of the LGBTQ+ community may have no support yet they still have to navigate through life despite it. It's a small price for the players or managers or FA members to pay for the actions they said they would take.
 

Maagge

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Doesn't appear like it, but they shouldn't need the backing of anyone if they care about the message or protest. Clearly all the Germans do care, which is good to see.
The Danish FA have said they're not voting for Infantino forwardly. That's the only thing I've seen from our side.
 

RacingClub

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They never said they weren't going to go to Qatar. They always said they were going. They said they were going to wear the armband, they didn't follow through with that. That's the difference.
Ok so the outrage is based around the fact that they said they would do something (wear an armband) and then didn't when it emerged that new punishments/ sanctions would occur.

Personally I find it more outrageous that they are participating in this tournament at all (obviously due to the fact that any country that refuses will be severely punished and any player will likely never play for his country again) but I can understand why people feel disappointment/ anger about the armband (though I do feel that the order of frustration should be Fifa, FAs , Players).

While Germany didn't either, they have still sent a message in a different manner. They've avoided the punishment for the armband by doing a different protest which may still see them reprimanded.
Yes there is cohesion in the German FAs approach, I applaud them for it.

The Germans have been helped by the support of their FA, of course, but members of the LGBTQ+ community may have no support yet they still have to navigate through life despite it. It's a small price for the players or managers or FA members to pay for the actions they said they would take.
I don't deny that it's a relatively small price for the players to play but it's also a vague price (in fact I'd love to know if anyone can say what exactly that price is) that may not be (I would argue clearly isn't) supported by their respective FAs.

Then the players who play for England/Holland are put in the firing line by their FA (who are obviously the ones making the final decision) and are attacked by everyone as if they had just woken up one day and decided to abandon their support for the LGBT community.

Above people are speaking about pundits and how those who went and spoke out about the injustices and created awareness etc (without any fear of reprisal) are more valuable than those who didn't / won't but is it not the same for the Players/ FAs who attempted to do something but were stopped by the governing body? Thereby creating awareness?

Aren't the players to be commended by sparking this conversation (which exposes fifa corruption) through their attempted actions?

Aren't the attempts (which have been shut down by FIFA) better than doing absolutely nothing at all? Aren't the players feelings pretty clear? Isn't it the governing bodies (FIFA and their FAs) which are preventing them from protesting?
 

Chesterlestreet

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I think thiis puts the whataboutery in context.

"You know what’s most shocking about the massacre in Colorado Springs? The fact that it felt so inevitable. Over the past year there has been an escalation in dangerously dehumanising anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric. The idea that LGBTQ+ people are “groomers” and paedophiles has become a mainstream conservative talking point pushed by everyone from Fox News to Republican politicians. Christina Pushaw, the press secretary for the Florida governor Ron DeSantis, for example, said that a new law preventing Florida schools from teaching kids about LGBTQ+ people should be called the “the anti-grooming bill”. If you’re against it, she tweeted, “you are probably a groomer or at least you don’t denounce the grooming of four- to eight-year-old children”. According to the Human Rights Campaign, the average number of tweets each day using slurs such as “groomer” and “paedophile” in relation to LGBTQ+ people increased by 406% in the month after the Florida bill was passed.


The dehumanising rhetoric has been accompanied by growing violence. The Proud Boys, a far-right group, have been disrupting Drag Queen Story Hour events (in which performers read books to children) across the US, often turning up with guns. In September Boston children’s hospital received bomb threats after sustained far-right harassment sparked by the hospital’s work with transgender youths. The tragedy at Club Q didn’t happen in a vacuum."

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rous-escalation-in-hateful-anti-lgbt-rhetoric
The rhetoric is more than half a century out of date.

...is what we would've said a few years ago.

Now? No, it ain't. It's not some anachronistic outlier we can laugh at, safe in the knowledge that society is actually progressing and that views like these are doomed to full extinction before long.

We seem to be regressing. It's quite scary, actually.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
The rhetoric is more than half a century out of date.

...is what we would've said a few years ago.

Now? No, it ain't. It's not some anachronistic outlier we can laugh at, safe in the knowledge that society is actually progressing and that views like these are doomed to full extinction before long.

We seem to be regressing. It's quite scary, actually.

Yep. Here in Ireland we never had a fascist manifestation, despite the best efforts of some wankers in the 1930s, but it's growing now, its very activist and its co-opting many of the seemingly meaningless culture wars. They have no set ideology beyond self serving so change opinions easily. They would champion respect for Qatar and Islam in view of their policies on homophobia but hammer them as monsters in a slightly different conversation.

It's grassroots at the moment and only have 1.2% of the vote but post trump and anti vax that's estimated to treble, and that's a voice. Worrying.
 
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Marwood

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When did I say that?
In the midst of me talking about the pundits motivation to be there you brought the quite abstract possibility of hypothetical replacement pundits not saying anything.

Yeah, only those with 100% proven, unbiased, altruistic motives should be listened to. Better to be completely silent on the issues than be even 1% hypocritical or nuanced.

So basically no one.

That's the way forward.
No you've gone to an extreme now. I'm not saying you have to be 100% pure to have an opinion.

But if you're criticising players for protesting without sacrifice I think its a bit much given they themselves had made zero sacrifice.

They're all extremely rich people who couldn't bring themselves to say no to one gig. They could hace done so easily but they all want that payday.

Not at all. They’re being paid by BBC / ITV to be there and are being paid to COMMENT on what’s going on - and that’s what they’re doing.

Also, if you think commentators aren’t being pressured / paid off to be pro qatar you’re mental. Just watch talksport or bein’s utterly pathetic ‘it’s all great here’ nonsense - Simon Jordan and Souness and co were basically doing a properganda job for it.

Likewise when Keane spoke simple truths you could see the cowards around him LITERALLY squirming, and at the end after the anchor wrapped the piece, Souness interrupted her to simply add ‘hey, our country’s not been great has it’ - which is now the rallying cry of the qatar apologist.

The ONLY possible point of having this World Cup in a country completely unsuitable for it - where we’ve moved our own fecking football calendar around in order to do so (!!!) - was in order to engage and shed light on an unprogressive and repressive regime. There is NO other point. Even Neville has repeatedly said as much.

If everyone just goes there and suddenly bows to their censorship and bullying it renders the whole thing utterly pointless.

qatar has nothing to offer football, and isn’t a footballing country. We (the footballing World) shouldnt have gone there to simply cow tow like obedient subjects.

That goes for players and media.
I'd not even mentioned pro Qatar pundits but good to know I'm mental about it anyway.

I think you've got a very naive take on all this.

You think the only point of the world cup being in Qatar is to help shed light on human rights issues? You think that's why the blokes at Fifa awarded it to them? Not the massive bribes? Are you sure you're not mental?

You think anything Roy Keane or Ian Wright say will make a difference? It's too late. Qatar have already been rewarded. Their actions have been condoned. The pundits have took the money off the back of it. A few nice words now is neither here nor there. That's just the game they have to play for a few weeks and then they're off with I'm guessing tens of thousands in their back pocket.
 

Duafc

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In the midst of me talking about the pundits motivation to be there you brought the quite abstract possibility of hypothetical replacement pundits not saying anything.



No you've gone to an extreme now. I'm not saying you have to be 100% pure to have an opinion.

But if you're criticising players for protesting without sacrifice I think its a bit much given they themselves had made zero sacrifice.

They're all extremely rich people who couldn't bring themselves to say no to one gig. They could hace done so easily but they all want that payday.



I'd not even mentioned pro Qatar pundits but good to know I'm mental about it anyway.

I think you've got a very naive take on all this.

You think the only point of the world cup being in Qatar is to help shed light on human rights issues? You think that's why the blokes at Fifa awarded it to them? Not the massive bribes? Are you sure you're not mental?

You think anything Roy Keane or Ian Wright say will make a difference? It's too late. Qatar have already been rewarded. Their actions have been condoned. The pundits have took the money off the back of it. A few nice words now is neither here nor there. That's just the game they have to play for a few weeks and then they're off with I'm guessing tens of thousands in their back pocket.
Whilst the points are fair I find this kind of chopping down of any comment or positive show of solidarity so base.

It's always - they should do more, they are hypocrites, it wont make a difference, why bother, as if that will change anything, sure they don't really give a feck, sure they got paid.. But but but followed by negative negative negative.

Ultimately it's totally apathetic. I'd rather recognise and promote the small positives that come along with the total shit sandwich we're being served rather than try and always slag off anyone celebrating minor wins and constantly berating those offering some small contribution to the efforts to educate and change for not being whiter than white within it all.

Of course there are ulterior motives, of course they could do much much more however they haven't and lots of others aren't even doing that much. Any small effort is cumulative and a damn side better than silence or indeed very outward support for these instances of discrimination and human rights failures.