Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[RacingClub]

I have no no idea where you live but in my sphere the people angry with Qatar are the same people angry with racism here and imperial invasions around the world.

Yeah thats my experience too.

 

[Red the Bear]

OK, I disagree but let's not derail the thread. I'd be happy to discuss it elsewhere.

Yeah this isn't the right place to do so.

 

[The Boy]

It's the utter hypocrisy of people. Yes freedom of religion and freedom of sexual orientation is a human right.
So is the freedom not to be bombed and massacred. Especially an illegal foreign invasion and occupation. So much so they protested that they elected the same government and president twice.
Or is it alright to bomb and kill non white people.
Qatar should be boycotted not only in the WC but in everything when they are violating human rights. So should everyone else.

Weird argument - all of these things were heavily protested against as should Qatar’s laws.

 

[Pintu]

Ok good, is Qatar a country with laws against and a long tradition of discrimination towards gay people?



Homophobia can take many forms mate. Some of the Ecuador fans were obviously just putting their own spin on it. But just because it takes a different form doesn't mean it wasn't because those people felt like they were in a comfortable environment to engage in their homophobia.

1) I believe the answer to be Yes Qatar does have such laws and a very likely the long tradition of discrimination that goes along with it.

2) No, I don’t think so. I believe we are underestimating the magnitude of homophobia in some segments of Western society, specially in football... The Qatari regime being what it is and acting in this way (banning rainbow flags..) probably gives the bigots around the world some validation for their homophobic views, but it is far from being the main issue/reason we are still struggle with homophobia.
Fifa are cn’ts but UEFA wasn't that brave either last summer.

 

[RacingClub]

Just that it’s not reasonable to blame them for homophobic chants.

I dont know if people are blaming Qatar for the homophobic chants as much as saying that its kind of a safespace for homophobes (in the fandoms of all national sides) to express themselves more openly with less fear of some sort of repercussion.

 

[stevoc]

1) I believe the answer to be Yes Qatar does have such laws and a very likely the long tradition of discrimination that goes along with it.

Ok great, so we both agree we have people engaging in homophobic behaviour in a homophobic country.

'When in Rome'

2) No, I don’t think so. I believe we are underestimating the magnitude of homophobia in some segments of Western society, specially in football... The Qatari regime being what it is and acting in this way (banning rainbow flags..) probably gives the bigots around the world some validation for their homophobic views, but it is from far being the main issue.
Fifa are cn’ts but UEFA wasn't that brave either last summer.

Indeed.

I dont know if people are blaming Qatar for the homophobic chants as much as saying that its kind of a safespace for homophobes (in the fandoms of all national sides) to express themselves more openly with less fear of some sort of repercussion.

Bingo.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Weird argument - all of these things were heavily protested against as should Qatar’s laws.

All these arguments fall apart if you simply go to the General Forum or Current Events section of Redcafe.

 

[Acrobat7]

 

[Duafc]

Decent!

 

[Mike Smalling]

I like that.

 

[BD]

Not a bad start - would be cool if they did something similar (or more) for the rest of the games.

Let's remind ourselves what Southgate said:

I do understand FIFA's situation in that you can set a precedent and it's difficult where to draw the line.

 

[duffer]

Fair play to them.

 

[sullydnl]

Better.

 

[Raoul]

Outstanding

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You must be joking! Do you really think it's going to happen? How many international tournaments have been held in the USA after they bombed the hell out and invaded Vietnam?

Not quite sure you’ve got fully to grips with the Vietnam war there by the way.

 

[calodo2003]

Bravo.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Well done Germany.

 

[Lecland07]

Well done, Germany? They still didn't want to get a yellow card, though.

 

[Reditus]

just seen this now, also the ref went and checked Neuer's armband too

Not shown live on TV apparently? I missed start of the game

 

[Mike Smalling]

Well done, Germany? They still didn't want to get a yellow card, though.

Well, according to the Danish FA they were threatened with more than a yellow. Apparently match bans or worse were being mentioned by FIFA.

 

[RacingClub]

Well, according to the Danish FA they were threatened with more than a yellow. Apparently match bans or worse were being mentioned by FIFA.

Also maybe they didn't feel it was fair to individualize a collective protest.

I think folks on here were far too quick to jump on the players backs when nobody knew the things happening behind the scenes.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Also maybe they didn't feel it was fair to individualize a collective protest.

I think folks on here were far too quick to jump on the players backs when nobody knew the things happening behind the scenes.

The captain wearing the armband is just one person. This is the whole team protesting. Wonder if FIFA will make themselves look even more out of touch by fining the German FA.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Wright spot on with his comments.

What did Wrighty say mate?

Excellent by Germany - show these backward thinking oppressors up for what they are.

 

[RacingClub]

The captain wearing the armband is just one person. This is the whole team protesting.

Yes exactly, the team maybe felt it was unfair to expect Neuer to take the yellow alone (wearing the armband) so this was adjudged to be a better collective protest.

Which I think it is.

It also shows that they have the collective backing of their FA, which I don't think the English and Dutch sides do.

 

[SilentWitness]

What did Wrighty say mate?



Excellent by Germany - show these backward thinking oppressors up for what they are.

 

[SilentWitness]

Also maybe they didn't feel it was fair to individualize a collective protest.

I think folks on here were far too quick to jump on the players backs when nobody knew the things happening behind the scenes.

Not really. The English, Dutch and Danish didn't do anything apart from make shite comments. The Germans have followed through with a protest and message.

 

[Marwood]

These are all good words from the pundits but the very thing they're complaining about,protests without risks, they themselves are doing.

Why are they there? They're not BBC or ITV employess, they're all freelance. They're all plenty rich enough to say no thanks.

Just makes everything they say a bit hollow.

 

[RacingClub]

The Germans have followed through with a protest and message.

They seem to have the backing of their FA though, which may not be the case with the other teams.

Have the FAs of those nations made a similar statement to the German FAs?

 

[SilentWitness]

They seem to have the backing of their FA though, which may not be the case with the other teams.

Have the FAs of those nations made a similar statement to the German FAs?

Doesn't appear like it, but they shouldn't need the backing of anyone if they care about the message or protest. Clearly all the Germans do care, which is good to see.

 

[SilentWitness]

These are all good words from the pundits but the very thing they're complaining about,protests without risks, they themselves are doing.

Why are they there? They're not BBC or ITV employess, they're all freelance. They're all plenty rich enough to say no thanks.

Just makes everything they say a bit hollow.

And if they don't go then who does? People who might say nothing. I'd rather have pundits who are hypocritical by being there standing up and saying the right things than pundits that keep quiet. Like the players, the pundits are in a position where they can use their positions as people who are being broadcast to millions to share their voice or message. Wright and Keane are saying and doing the right things.

 

[RacingClub]

Doesn't appear like it, but they shouldn't need the backing of anyone if they care about the message or protest.

Well then the players of those national sides are being scapegoated due to decisions made above their pay grade IMO.

I commend the German FAs approach and condemn the others but I'm hesitant to criticize the players who the FAs are using as human shields over this topic.

 

[SilentWitness]

Well then the players of those national sides are being scapegoated due to decisions made above their pay grade IMO.

I commend the German FAs approach and condemn the others but I'm hesitant to criticize the players who the FAs are using as human shields over this topic.

The English or Dutch FA aren't going to send Kane or VVD home. They can push more for what they want but they clearly don't want to push the topic further as is shown in their comments post-match.

 

[Marwood]

And if they don't go then who does? People who might say nothing. I'd rather have pundits who are hypocritical by being there standing up and saying the right things than pundits that keep quiet. Like the players, the pundits are in a position where they can use their positions as people who are being broadcast to millions to share their voice or message. Wright and Keane are saying and doing the right things.

Do you honestly think Keane and Wright are there because if they don't go they're worried the replacements won't say anything?

Or are they there because of the huge amount of money they're about to be paid?

 

[SilentWitness]

Do you honestly think Keane and Wright are there because if they don't go they're worried the replacements won't say anything?

Or are they there because of the huge amount of money they're about to be paid?

When did I say that?

 

[Duafc]

Do you honestly think Keane and Wright are there because if they don't go they're worried the replacements won't say anything?

Or are they there because of the huge amount of money they're about to be paid?

Yeah, only those with 100% proven, unbiased, altruistic motives should be listened to. Better to be completely silent on the issues than be even 1% hypocritical or nuanced.

So basically no one.

That's the way forward.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

These are all good words from the pundits but the very thing they're complaining about,protests without risks, they themselves are doing.

Why are they there? They're not BBC or ITV employess, they're all freelance. They're all plenty rich enough to say no thanks.

Just makes everything they say a bit hollow.

Not at all. They’re being paid by BBC / ITV to be there and are being paid to COMMENT on what’s going on - and that’s what they’re doing.

Also, if you think commentators aren’t being pressured / paid off to be pro qatar you’re mental. Just watch talksport or bein’s utterly pathetic ‘it’s all great here’ nonsense - Simon Jordan and Souness and co were basically doing a properganda job for it.

Likewise when Keane spoke simple truths you could see the cowards around him LITERALLY squirming, and at the end after the anchor wrapped the piece, Souness interrupted her to simply add ‘hey, our country’s not been great has it’ - which is now the rallying cry of the qatar apologist.

The ONLY possible point of having this World Cup in a country completely unsuitable for it - where we’ve moved our own fecking football calendar around in order to do so (!!!) - was in order to engage and shed light on an unprogressive and repressive regime. There is NO other point. Even Neville has repeatedly said as much.

If everyone just goes there and suddenly bows to their censorship and bullying it renders the whole thing utterly pointless.

qatar has nothing to offer football, and isn’t a footballing country. We (the footballing World) shouldnt have gone there to simply cow tow like obedient subjects.

That goes for players and media.

 

[RacingClub]

The English or Dutch FA aren't going to send Kane or VVD home. They can push more for what they want but they clearly don't want to push the topic further as is shown in their comments post-match.

Well of course they won't send Kane etc home but all we know so far (thanks to the Danish press conference) is that FIFA threatened participating FAs with vague punishments (which may or not be limited to yellow cards) for players who wore the armband.

The armband was abandoned by all participating FAs due to these vague threatened punishments and the Players have been wheeled out to absorb the fallout by their respective FAs and forced into giving their reaction to a situation that they probably don't fully understand (I doubt they are present when these decisions are being made).

The only FA who hasn't thrown their players under the bus (as far as I've seen) is the German FA, which I commend them for.

So while I understand people focusing on the players I think their anger is misguided and they should be lambasting their FAs rather than the people that are wheeled out to justify their FAs actions.

To be honest I'm struggling with the overall logic of it being ok for the FA to decide to participate in Qatar and the (players to decide to play for their county in Qatar) because there will be penalties for non participation etc..

But now when another penalty is announced and the FA and Players bow down it's supposed to be this outrageous decision that abandons all their morals etc.

Isn't it just the logical conclusion of the abandonment of their own principles/ morals that allowed them to participate in this tournament to begin with?

 

[SilentWitness]

Well of course they won't send Kane etc home but all we know so far (thanks to the Danish press conference) is that FIFA threatened participating FAs with vague punishments (which may or not be limited to yellow cards) for players who wore the armband.

The armband was abandoned by all participating FAs due to these vague threatened punishments and the Players have been wheeled out to absorb the fallout by their respective FAs and forced into giving their reaction to a situation that they probably don't fully understand (I doubt they are present when these decisions are being made).

The only FA who hasn't thrown their players under the bus (as far as I've seen) is the German FA, which I commend them for.

So while I understand people focusing on the players I think their anger is misguided and they should be lambasting their FAs rather than the people that are wheeled out to justify their FAs actions.

To be honest I'm struggling with the overall logic of it being ok for the FA to decide to participate in Qatar and the (players to decide to play for their county in Qatar) because there will be penalties for non participation etc..

But now when another penalty is announced and the FA and Players bow down it's supposed to be this outrageous decision that abandons all their morals etc.

Isn't it just the logical conclusion of the abandonment of their own principles/ morals that allowed them to participate in this tournament to begin with?

They never said they weren't going to go to Qatar. They always said they were going. They said they were going to wear the armband, they didn't follow through with that. That's the difference.

While Germany didn't either, they have still sent a message in a different manner. They've avoided the punishment for the armband by doing a different protest which may still see them reprimanded.

I direct my anger/disappointment at both players and the FA. If you don't have the courage to follow through with your words then don't say them. The Germans have been helped by the support of their FA, of course, but members of the LGBTQ+ community may have no support yet they still have to navigate through life despite it. It's a small price for the players or managers or FA members to pay for the actions they said they would take.

 

[Maagge]

Doesn't appear like it, but they shouldn't need the backing of anyone if they care about the message or protest. Clearly all the Germans do care, which is good to see.

The Danish FA have said they're not voting for Infantino forwardly. That's the only thing I've seen from our side.

 

[RacingClub]

They never said they weren't going to go to Qatar. They always said they were going. They said they were going to wear the armband, they didn't follow through with that. That's the difference.

Ok so the outrage is based around the fact that they said they would do something (wear an armband) and then didn't when it emerged that new punishments/ sanctions would occur.

Personally I find it more outrageous that they are participating in this tournament at all (obviously due to the fact that any country that refuses will be severely punished and any player will likely never play for his country again) but I can understand why people feel disappointment/ anger about the armband (though I do feel that the order of frustration should be Fifa, FAs , Players).

While Germany didn't either, they have still sent a message in a different manner. They've avoided the punishment for the armband by doing a different protest which may still see them reprimanded.

Yes there is cohesion in the German FAs approach, I applaud them for it.

The Germans have been helped by the support of their FA, of course, but members of the LGBTQ+ community may have no support yet they still have to navigate through life despite it. It's a small price for the players or managers or FA members to pay for the actions they said they would take.

I don't deny that it's a relatively small price for the players to play but it's also a vague price (in fact I'd love to know if anyone can say what exactly that price is) that may not be (I would argue clearly isn't) supported by their respective FAs.

Then the players who play for England/Holland are put in the firing line by their FA (who are obviously the ones making the final decision) and are attacked by everyone as if they had just woken up one day and decided to abandon their support for the LGBT community.

Above people are speaking about pundits and how those who went and spoke out about the injustices and created awareness etc (without any fear of reprisal) are more valuable than those who didn't / won't but is it not the same for the Players/ FAs who attempted to do something but were stopped by the governing body? Thereby creating awareness?

Aren't the players to be commended by sparking this conversation (which exposes fifa corruption) through their attempted actions?

Aren't the attempts (which have been shut down by FIFA) better than doing absolutely nothing at all? Aren't the players feelings pretty clear? Isn't it the governing bodies (FIFA and their FAs) which are preventing them from protesting?