France - Police shoot 17 year-old triggering protests

[JPRouve]

Umm, because he is going to court that makes him automatically guilty? What the feck are you even talking about? I don't think in France you send people in prison without due process. Are you going to suggest the guillotine next for non-believers in the Cult of Reason, Monsieur Robespierre?

I'm talking about blame since you brought that up, I'm talking about actions that he already admitted. He shot the driver and he also lied about why he shot him because he was not in front of the car but on the side at the driver's window. So unless you disengage your brain, you should understand why it is perfectly normal to blame the policeman. Which has nothing to do with him being sentenced by a judge.

 

[JPRouve]

JPRouve has already established that there's no debate over if what he did was out of proportion, it's been established that nothing in the incident justified the use of a firearm. Posting a completely unrelated incident and scenario doesn't suddenly change that.

That's what the prosecution stated to the judge and it's based on the IGPN(internal affairs) early investigation, following that the policeman is currently in prison.

How can any of us argue that we can't blame or that people can't blame the "cop" when the police, the prosecution and a judge have done exactly that? Even if later we learned something new, today people can definitely blame the cop.

 

[Solius]

No, you didn't hear it. That's why the cop is free to enjoy his life instead of rotting away in prison. There was no riots, no national media coverage, nothing. Only years later did the video even resurface and made some kind of noise, but only on the internet and compared to Floyd or other black men that got killed, it got crickets. Hell, the cnut is still receiving his pension last time I heard.

I did. There was coverage. I remember it was a hotel IIRC and the police were called because someone reported they saw him on the balcony of his room with a rifle but he didn’t have anything like that on him. I remember that the police officer got off too. How can you tell me I didn’t hear about it?

 

[KirkDuyt]

I did. There was coverage. I remember it was a hotel IIRC and the police were called because someone reported they saw him on the balcony of his room with a rifle but he didn’t have anything like that on him. I remember that the police officer got off too. How can you tell me I didn’t hear about it?

Nah, you definitely didn't hear it.

 

[Sviken]

I'll drop this since I'm already being warned. Not that I didn't expect it. Mods are being biased, but that isn't a surprise.

 

[Cascarino]

That's what the prosecution stated to the judge and it's based on the IGPN(internal affairs) early investigation, following that the policeman is currently in prison.

How can any of us argue that we can't blame or that people can't blame the "cop" when the police, the prosecution and a judge have done exactly that? Even if later we learned something new, today people can definitely blame the cop.

I find a lot in these cases that some people forget cops aren't judge jury and executioner, and the argument that it's a stressful job (while true) doesn't grant absolution for killing someone when your life is in no danger.

 

[Solius]

I'll drop this since I'm already being warned. Not that I didn't expect it. Mods are being biased, but that isn't a surprise.

Yes we’re very biased against the poster who said and I quote

Or maybe blacks are far more likely to resist arrest or do something stupid that inevitably gets them shot

 

[Utd heap]

I'll drop this since I'm already being warned. Not that I didn't expect it. Mods are being biased, but that isn't a surprise.

You can't even hint at being fairly obviosiky a massive racist bellend on the internet anymore. World's gone mad.

 

[Conor]

So why not just say that? Today there's usually a very particular type of person who bandies "degenerates" around when talking about other people. It's not a good look.

@Sviken is the most blatantly racist user on the forum that (somehow) hasn't yet been banned, he's like a Dumat regen.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I'll drop this since I'm already being warned. Not that I didn't expect it. Mods are being biased, but that isn't a surprise.

Biased against fecking racists? The horror. You alright sweetheart?

 

[DOTA]

@Sviken is the most blatantly racist user on the forum that (somehow) hasn't yet been banned, he's like a Dumat regen.

Biased against fecking racists? The horror. You alright sweetheart?

Yeah, humoured longer than they should've been. Active bias against racists is good.

 

[africanspur]

And blacks are specifically targeted? Where do you get your information from? Or maybe blacks are far more likely to resist arrest or do something stupid that inevitably gets them shot, just like that kid who got killed right now in France? If you want something really disgusting, watch this:

Despite following all orders to a tee, he got shot. Was he specifically targeted or was the cop an absolute psychopathic dumbass?

Take your own advice.

Again, what is your source of information here? Nahel, in particular has been known to resist arrest multiple times and the only reason he didn't have an extensive criminal record, was because he was underage.

I dislike cops, as well, but it's so fecking easy to put the blame on cops, evil racism and oppressive western societies instead of looking at the actual facts.

Firstly, interesting that you think he followed all orders to a tee, when he clearly didn't and put his arm behind his back?

Secondly, what the hell does a police shooting in the USA have to do with this particular police shooting in France?

Because that's the way it is. He got away multiple times "playing stupid games", but it eventually caught up to him. You can say it is 'incredibly out of proportion', but you're not a cop whose life is forfeit in a matter of a second in that type of situation. This is how fast your life can end:

So excuse me if I don't throw the cop under the bus. When a cop stops you and asks you to comply, the least you can do is not make it difficult. Later on if you felt your rights have been violated, sue. But the answer definitely isn't running away or trying to fight the cop because that never ends good either for the cop himself or the suspect. Whether the cop was justified in his action or not, I cannot say since we don't have all the details, as far as I know. But are there mitigating circumstances? Most assuredly.


How about the guy be tried first before coming out with judgments on whether he is guilty or not? I already said that this shit is mired in politics. They're never gonna come out and say he was justified, especially given what is going on. I assume you believe video games are at fault too, because that's what the idiotic president of yours said? Maybe we should ban that.


In the criminal type of way.

You are a genuine nutter and almost certainly a racist. Like I said, just own up to it so we can all move on.

That 'isn't the way it is' at all. People run away/ drive away from the police all the time. They almost never got shot. Because almost everyone who has even a modicum of sense would appreciate that it is totally fecking out of proportion to whats just happened. How the feck is a cop's life forfeit when the suspect is running/driving away?

Perhaps in the video of the white guy getting shot by the police you were so eager to throw out there (in a different country), you could talk about how difficult it must be for that cop? After all, its a country awash with guns right? Its a call specifically about someone pointing a gun outside of the window right? He asked him to put his hands up in the air and he put it behind his back! A gun could be hidden there right? Especially in the USA? But no problem, he gets a warning. he then gets asked to crawl and then, suddenly, inexplicably, moves his hand behind his back again.

How come that isn't 'the way it is'? How come that isn't playing stupid games? How come this cop shouldn't be worried about his life being forfeit in a matter of seconds? How come you're jumping to the defence of that cop because he hasn't been tried yet and yet seem to find this shooting in America so galling, even though he was tried and found not guilty?

And how come that video is disgusting for you but the other isn't?

 

[That_Bloke]

Kind of sounds like.....you do think he deserve to be killed?

He's in full whatabout mode and some of his statements give a very good idea of his political leanings. He also belongs to the ever growing part of the population that fails to understand the importance of the principle of proportionate use of violence by a representative of the institution that's supposed to have monopoly on it. A cornerstone of any self-respecting democracy is about to go out the window in a foreseeable future.

 

[maniak]

When someone starts posting videos like they have them bookmarked, you know they fell deep into some weird bigoted rabbit hole.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

When someone starts posting videos like they have them bookmarked, you know they fell deep into some weird bigoted rabbit hole.

Yep. That's pathetic.

 

[Cheimoon]

It is all because of that. Let's be clear about something, these actions are not supported by social workers and the majority of people in those neighborhood, people are describing these actions as shameful.

And I can't stress this enough, it's what people think in those neighborhood.

While destroying your neighbours' property is obviously a ridiculous way to protest injustice or racism - don't you think deep-seated frustration with the life in the poor suburbs of France's larger cities underlies this anger? Again, it's obviously expressed in am unhelpful way (a bit of an understatement), and I don't mean to contest claims that unrelated parties are there as well, to fan the flames (or just to have 'fun'); but you can only try and make the best of shitty circumstances in the hope that you'll finally turn them around (which I suppose is what social workers and others would advocate) until the frustration boils over when yet again the social injustice of your circumstances is being brutally rubbed into your face.

In that sense, I agree with @Murder on Zidane's Floor - if the situation is bad 'enough' and is never properly acknowledged or improved by those in power, then it's good if the frustration eventually does boil over. (Although, again, preferably in a more pointed kind of way.)

(I'll also add that I do feel looting A brand stores fits the situation: they are a symbol of socioeconomic injustice. And I'll also admit that I write all this from the safe distance of someone who is not at all in this kind of situation and is not affected by any of it and that I couldn't quite imagine myself participating in violence of any kind. In case that matters.)

Right on, @Sviken.

Sorry, could you expand on this? I just can't figure out if it's sarcasm or if you're applauding them for bringing this perspective to the thread.

 

[Buster15]

So how do you think these protests and violence across France are going to pan out.
Will they be stopped by the police, or will they just reduce naturally, or will they continue and spread.

 

[Sweet Square]

I agree and disagree. It is a class issue refracted via race. A minorty group which is hit by X number of incidents over Y period of time and gives no response. There's a lot of nuance there. Is it a riot over the man who got shot? Yes. Also no. One straw that broke the camel's back, the one issue which ignites a powder keg.

Protecting property with armed force will be universal. That isn't the problem. The problem is using armed force in a pyramid scheme economy, which is what the world has had for many years, when the base is growing inasmuch as poor people are getting poorer and rich are getting richer.

If anyone went to anyone's house, you would use armed force to prevent it. I.e., armed force, riot, is here used to respond to armed force. Protecting property with armed force is a sociological fact, not a capitalist fact.

Minorities in all nations, especially nations like France (Algiers riots, post-collonial history, black-white problems), come up against hegemonic majorities. It is a class issue more than race, but is racial until attenuation of the class issue allows it not to be racial.

Capitalism is too narrow a scope for me of late. I don't think it exists in the first instance, a different topic, and is too easy to dump everythng on when ever anything happens. What we have is a ponzi scheme and a quasi-totalitarian Western order (global, for what it's worth, not a Western critique) which will, one way or another, alter its mode of operating or simply die.


It's the decade of the ballot or the bullet. The cave has broken in all Western and most non-Western societies. Some see it as a capitalist issue, which only means economic inequality if we remove the non-Marxist Marxian go-tos. Ballot will not work. Bullet never works. The ballot is broken and the bullet registers discontent at the broken ballot. In France, or wherever, racial minorities are as canaries in a coalmine. George Floyd in America. It's not a black/white issue, and the states' inability to frame it as anything else, because the ballot is broken, a quasi-totalitarian press regime across the board, liberal meaning state-line, - that inability will be the death of the very states which do not understand it.

Nations are petrified to speak about class. They have mechanisms, all of them, even the communist, for dealing with class. It rarely finds its way into the press, or "Office", as elected, in any meaningful sense. Here's the problem: the ballot is exhausted, the box of pandora's tricks, unintentional and intentional, as it goes, by ruling class types over a long period of time, i.e., some intended to put down specific instances and others which had that effect, that box of tricks is now exhausted by a massive wave of "under the rug" dirt which cannot be hidden any more. Thus, the era of the ballot or the bullet. It's global.

People saying "mad to see this in the West". Not really, just some have been insulated from it. It has been happening constantly for decades. London riots, various American riots, class riots, yellow vests, Italian riots, periodic, and on and on and on (riots over the collapse in 2008 which never has been dealt with: 2020 with Biden in America and Johnson, liberal style in Uk, is the first attempt at dealing with that massive heartattack which continues).

Nations, Western, have gambled on authority. Without a single exception. They have invested in what you call "armed protection of capital" but in reality is a Foucalt styled Communist surveillance state in the making. That will fail miserably. If that's all they have to offer, and I don't see a lot else being offered, with a few exceptions, but in themselves, pointless, then these states will all collapse in various ways. I haven't even mentioned climate change. I suspect the world either kills itself or saves itself before the melting of the north and south icecaps gets out the gate.

There are no quick answers. But I just want to say this: anyone who focuses upon the one preson killed, or the riot in isolation, is viewing it too small (whilst anyone who ignores that, the person and the riot, is pushing an agenda). Demise of various orders, firstly, with respect to a series of issues, understood as race through class which, because there are so many incidents for a minority community, in any nation, ignites every now and then until the quality of life situation and general humanist agenda, not authoritarian response-mechanisms, are understood and implemented.

There is a very "meta" frame, sociologically detached, which most states themselves are not understanding, never mind the populations within. State types are paid to understand it but have reacted predictably with armed and non-armed control mechanisms for what they see as a passage, or wave, they have to ride. That won't work. That is the ballot.

Agree with a lot here and the other stuff is way over my vulgar Marxist brain. Still very interesting post. Cheers.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

The policeman's personal info leaked and nothing about it is suprising.

Proudly posing in his military uniform with guns and mentioning how he fought in Afghanistan.

 

[do.ob]

I obviously have no idea no idea how thinks are for the lower class in France, so this is a genuine question:
Are things really that "riot worthy" and to this extend? The American outburst(s) seemed understandable, but here in Europe we have free education, free healthcare, much less bloodthirsty police and (I assume) a better social safety net in general. In terms of % of population living below the national poverty line France is among the lowest in Europe, on the "Global Social Mobility Index" they were 12th in the world in 2020.

 

[VorZakone]

I obviously have no idea no idea how thinks are for the lower class in France, so this is a genuine question:
Are things really that "riot worthy" and to this extend? The American outburst(s) seemed understandable, but here in Europe we have free education, free healthcare, much less bloodthirsty police and (I assume) a better social safety net in general. In terms of % of population living below the national poverty line France is among the lowest in Europe, on the "Global Social Mobility Index" they were 12th in the world in 2020.

Ehh, I live in a European country and I pay insurance for healthcare, it is not "free". Neither was college "free".

Nevertheless, the banlieus in France are notorious and life can be really shitty there.

 

[JPRouve]

I obviously have no idea no idea how thinks are for the lower class in France, so this is a genuine question:
Are things really that "riot worthy" and to this extend? The American outburst(s) seemed understandable, but here in Europe we have free education, free healthcare, much less bloodthirsty police and (I assume) a better social safety net in general. In terms of % of population living below the national poverty line France is among the lowest in Europe, on the "Global Social Mobility Index" they were 12th in the world in 2020.

The short answer is no.

 

[Nani Nana]

I obviously have no idea no idea how thinks are for the lower class in France, so this is a genuine question:
Are things really that "riot worthy" and to this extend? The American outburst(s) seemed understandable, but here in Europe we have free education, free healthcare, much less bloodthirsty police and (I assume) a better social safety net in general. In terms of % of population living below the national poverty line France is among the lowest in Europe, on the "Global Social Mobility Index" they were 12th in the world in 2020.

The thing with France is it takes 6 generations to move from below to above the poverty line on average.

In Denmark it only takes 2 generations.

I think France has not done as good a job with its former colonies as the UK or Spain.

 

[Cloud7]

When someone starts posting videos like they have them bookmarked, you know they fell deep into some weird bigoted rabbit hole.

Solid point that I never thought about before. I've previously flagged the use of terms like 'virtue signalling, woke, snowflake' etc. as signs that a person is going to hold specific views on certain things and they're likely not worth debating with. Having a bunch of videos like that bookmarked is probably another red flag.

 

[GatoLoco]

The thing with France is it takes 6 generations to move from below to above the poverty line on average.

In Denmark it only takes 2 generations.

I think France has not done as good a job with its former colonies as the UK or Spain.

Do you know this data for UK and Spain?

 

[Nani Nana]

Do you know this data for UK and Spain?

Spain is 3, UK also 6 according to the OECD

Such unrest still seems hardly conceivable in the UK for some reason

 

[Giggsyking]

I have zero empathy for the French state or any western state in general that have been part of the imperialistic system. The racists do not like seeing Africans walking around in the streets of Paris, but they enjoy all the privilege of stealing the African recourses for the past 100 years.

 

[africanspur]

Spain is 3, UK also 6 according to the OECD

Such unrest still seems hardly conceivable in the UK for some reason

Don't think it's that inconceivable. A similar incident led to the London/ English riots in 2011 after all. Lots of strikes at the moment too, most things not really working. Feels like it's bubbling under the surface.

 

[Ish]

You can't even hint at being fairly obviosiky a massive racist bellend on the internet anymore. World's gone mad.

This . How dare we not show tolerance to even the racists, damnit!

 

[P-Ro]

Like I do with anything else I'm interested in, I've been trying to search for more news, videos and information on what's happening in France on twitter. Every single post I come across is from racists and the far right, with half of them showing videos of riots that aren't even in France. Am I the only person getting this? I know twitter works by showing you posts that are similar to ones you've viewed before and I think the first couple I viewed when initially searching were from far right accounts. It's actually pretty annoying as I just want to see what's going on and instead am being bombarded with twattish propaganda. Hasn't happened on any other world event I've been interested in.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Hopefully doesn't spread to Disneyland as I'm going on Saturday.

 

[Real Name]

Jesus Christ, I've seen a lot of meltdowns, but Sviken's one is colossal.

 

[Cascarino]

Hopefully doesn't spread to Disneyland as I'm going on Saturday.

Give goofy a punch.Vive la révolution

 

[Ish]

Give goofy a punch.Vive la révolution

Stop taking the Mickey out of it!

 

[P-Ro]

Hopefully doesn't spread to Disneyland as I'm going on Saturday.

Be careful. The last thing you want the French rioters to overhear you saying is cindre elle la.

 

[fergieisold]

Give goofy a punch.Vive la révolution

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Like I do with anything else I'm interested in, I've been trying to search for more news, videos and information on what's happening in France on twitter. Every single post I come across is from racists and the far right, with half of them showing videos of riots that aren't even in France. Am I the only person getting this? I know twitter works by showing you posts that are similar to ones you've viewed before and I think the first couple I viewed when initially searching were from far right accounts. It's actually pretty annoying as I just want to see what's going on and instead am being bombarded with twattish propaganda. Hasn't happened on any other world event I've been interested in.

Right-wing propaganda is in hyperdrive mode so far, it's really disgusting. People who are actually on the ground say that the amount of violence in France seems to be blown way out of proportion; it's not near the level of what we saw in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder.

There is an asshole born from Quebec named Mathieu Bock-Côté, who is now a right-wing pundit on French TV. I swear that I cannot believe that some media outlets here, namely TVA and the Journal de Montréal, will give that guy a platform to talk to us from France. He will spew bullshit after bullshit after bullshit.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Like I do with anything else I'm interested in, I've been trying to search for more news, videos and information on what's happening in France on twitter. Every single post I come across is from racists and the far right, with half of them showing videos of riots that aren't even in France. Am I the only person getting this? I know twitter works by showing you posts that are similar to ones you've viewed before and I think the first couple I viewed when initially searching were from far right accounts. It's actually pretty annoying as I just want to see what's going on and instead am being bombarded with twattish propaganda. Hasn't happened on any other world event I've been interested in.

You've got the far left and far right using this for political gain. Morons like Bardella and Zemmour on the far right and twat of the century Mélenchon on the far left stoking the flames.
Mélenchon has even been called out by the rest of the left parties in NUPES including the communists , the socialists and François Hollande. Totally irresponsible.

Using the same old tactics - incite violence and the rent-a-mob crew pile in with looting and destruction. Same happened with the gilets jaunes , the pension reform.
It's been calmer the last couple of days looking at the news.

Personally the last protester in France I saw 'live' was over four years ago with the gilets jaunes, which was a peaceful protest.

 

[Solius]

Sorry, could you expand on this? I just can't figure out if it's sarcasm or if you're applauding them for bringing this perspective to the thread.

Could you reply to this please @pablo__p

I see you were online as of 2 minutes ago.

 

[P-Ro]

@pablo__p this is a direct order from 2 superiors. Redcafe is duty bound to gather information on wrong'uns and without your cooperation, conclusions will be made.